Resolving Mini-2 Weight Question

[BigAl07]

You never speed in your car? That's FAR more dangerous than flying a drone that's a few grams over the legal limit for registration. He's not even talking about breaking any rules of flight, just not registering it. He's not talking about flying too high or over crowds or too near an airport or even slightly BVLOS - it's 2-3 grams overweight for registration, that's it.

Actually I'm more likely to be the "old slow guy" than anything else. I don't speed, I don't run stop signs/lights, and I also follow FAA Rules/Regulations (shocking as it may sound). Back in my younger days might have been a different story and I have the tickets & fines to document that very much in detail but that's not the case today.

At what point is "a few grams" enough over the LAW to where you think it should make a difference and should be enforced? 10gr, 100gr, 1000gr?

It's pretty much black and white.... Under 250gr means 249.9999 or less not 251gr, 252gr, 255gr, 260gr, 275gr, 500gr . . . . etc etc.

 

[zeusfl]

A few grams of weed can make the difference from a $75 ticket in WPB Florida or Jail !!!
I don't smoke or drink but just saying.

 

[Chaosrider]

So why did you ask? If you have a drone that is 252g, you are operating it illegally under the rec rules. But why ask if you are just going to say at the end that you are going to illegally continue to violate the law AFTER being proven that you are violating the law? Why not just continue to be a criminal and break the law, being a 252g drone at take off weight requiring registration? I don't get why people ask, then when they get an answer they don't like, say, well I am going to continue to break the law anyway because why not, no one will find out. Which is fine, but then why ask, then give others who may want to stay LEGAL bad information in that you are NOT LEGAL if your drone is greater than 250g, which it is, guaranteed at take off weight if what you said is true?

You obviously do not have any respect for law, and that they do not apply to you. Good luck, it's people like that is why we have so many rules and regulations to begin with, because people can't follow the simple rules or use common sense.

This isn't a question about if something is interpreted somehow, like altitude near a cliff, or whatever, it is clear, nothing over 250g at TAKEOFF without registration, hobby or 107. And when told you are definitely over 250g, you say you will continue to break the law.

This is a weird kind of question, that I've gotten on several occasions.

Why did I ask? Because I wanted to know what people thought!

Duh!

In this particular case, my understanding was that my Mini-2s with strobes were certainly overweight, and therefore needed to be registered. Instead, the answers I got suggested that they are likely legal without being registered. Not what I expected, but OK, that works for me.

This embodies another weird response that I've seen here on a number of occasions, and the...misunderstanding... is:

*If you ask for opinions, you are under no obligations to do what the opinions suggest.*

This, from you:

"But why ask if you are just going to say at the end that you are going to illegally continue to violate the law AFTER being proven that you are violating the law? "

...is simultaneously insulting, irrational, and unrelated to anything that I said.

Mine was an armchair inquiry as to whether or not my strobed Mini-2s exceeded the 250 gram limit. I thought the answer was "yes", and if so, I'd get them registered. It turns out the answer is, "maybe yes, maybe no".

Nowhere, at any time, did I endorse blowing off the limit, and I have no intention of doing so.

You then continue with other insulting things based on assumptions about what I said or thought, all of which are false.

Please stop doing that.

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

Horrible and dangerous advice. Are you so sure in your advice you will openly state you're willing to also accept any repercussions someone faces from your "keyboard" suggestions if they take your horrible advice.

Keep in mind, "Ignorantia juris non excusat" or " ignorantia legis neminem excusat" is very much as play here.

Rules are rules whether it's a few grams, a few feet, a few miles per hour etc etc. Where do you draw the line of "just barely over the law" is allowable and what isn't?

I believe that my two remaining unregistered Mini-2s are not more than 250 grams, and that I'm operating them legally.

I'm going to go ahead and registered a second one, because I want to have legal back-up for my planned commercial activities.

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

You never speed in your car? That's FAR more dangerous than flying a drone that's a few grams over the legal limit for registration. He's not even talking about breaking any rules of flight, just not registering it. He's not talking about flying too high or over crowds or too near an airport or even slightly BVLOS - it's 2-3 grams overweight for registration, that's it.

If even that. I'm not convinced it's overweight at all.

If I was, I'd register it.

Thx,

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

Register the drone and the problem is resolved. $5 is a one-time shot and will cover all your drones.
Now if you are Part 107 you need to register each drone.

U.S. Drone Registration

www.faaregisterdrone.com

I have three Mini-2s, and I've already registered one, under part 107. As I'm starting to define the outlines of my commercial operations, I decided i always wanted a back-up, so I'm going to register at least one more of them.

This has become more of a philosophical discussion than anything else...which is fine with me!



TCS

 

[zeusfl]

If I am not wrong and please any expert correct me, even if you have part 107 and you have a drone that will not be used for commercial use you can fly as hobbyist rule.

 

[Chaosrider]

Actually I'm more likely to be the "old slow guy" than anything else. I don't speed, I don't run stop signs/lights, and I also follow FAA Rules/Regulations (shocking as it may sound). Back in my younger days might have been a different story and I have the tickets & fines to document that very much in detail but that's not the case today.

At what point is "a few grams" enough over the LAW to where you think it should make a difference and should be enforced? 10gr, 100gr, 1000gr?

It's pretty much black and white.... Under 250gr means 249.9999 or less not 251gr, 252gr, 255gr, 260gr, 275gr, 500gr . . . . etc etc.

I'm actually a very tame driver although, apparently like you as well, that wasn't always true during my mis-spent youth!

There's a smartass engineering phrase that I learned at Caltech 50 years ago, which applies here. I wonder how many people will catch the reference, and why it's relevant?

Measure with a micrometer.
Mark with chalk.
Cut with an axe.



TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

A few grams of weed can make the difference from a $75 ticket in WPB Florida or Jail !!!
I don't smoke or drink but just saying.

There are a lot of edge effects like that.

One time, I was bombing along on my motorcycle, with both my gun and my CCW in my pocket. I live in Nevada, and I was coming up on the California border. I suddenly realized that if I crossed that border, in the blink of an eye, I would change from being a law-abiding citizen, into a felon.

There was virtually no chance I would get caught. So what did I do?

I turned around, and remained a law-abiding citizen in Nevada.

TCS

 

[MARK (LI)]

You never speed in your car? That's FAR more dangerous than flying a drone that's a few grams over the legal limit for registration. He's not even talking about breaking any rules of flight, just not registering it. He's not talking about flying too high or over crowds or too near an airport or even slightly BVLOS - it's 2-3 grams overweight for registration, that's it.

I can answer that question....No I don't speed in my car..not on purpose, anyway...and if I become aware that I am speeding...I stop right away.....you know why? Because there are rules that say you can't.
Rules for flying ...whether it's an Air Bus or a drone can be critical...yes ...even that 3 gram difference ...if the rules aren't for you ...you really don't belong in the sky...No one is above the laws

 

[SkiProiii]

Just so people know, I have a calibrated scale and a Mini 2 and a Firehouse Arc V. My mini2, battery and strobe with the velcro that Firehouse sends, weighs in at 252.7 g . I do have a label on it with my registration number, which is less than 1 gram.

Of note, mine is actually under 240g without the strobe. and the strobe with the velcro by itself is over 14g. The velcro is over 1G by itself.

This was done with a battery at about 20% and an SD card. And while fully charged batteries actually do weigh more, I do not think my scale would even detect the difference.

My drone is other wise completely stock, still have the original props on it. By law I think you need to have it registered, because if anything happens, it could come into play as the operator was "negligent".

But as far as tracking, the only way they could track your drone right now would be to get your drone and read the registration off of it. Not like a manned AC tail number which is visible from the ground. So as long as you don't lose it, I don't see how registration would even come into play.

Here’s confirmation of the weight at 253g with a standard strobe configuration of one light. I use a 3D printed mount for even better visibility which adds even more to the TO weight.

In Canada, 250 grams and over need to be registered, licensed piloted. My Mini 2 is registered for compliance (for this configuration) and I am a licensed pilot, but can also fly the Mini 2 at 242g without either of those, legally. It’s a two class drone that way. But you can’t “cross the boarder” and remain compliant with regulations if the configuration take off weight is over 249g without registering the drone.

Our law is clear with the regulators making the message known that anything aftermarket added to the micro drone that takes it to 250g and over, puts the drone into another class of UAV, needs to be registered, marked and be licensed to fly it, as a minimum. Law enforcement “May” have some discretion but I’m not the guy that will test what that may (or may not) be!

 

[smashse]

View attachment 138443
Here’s confirmation of the weight at 253g with a standard strobe configuration of one light. I use a 3D printed mount for even better visibility which adds even more to the TO weight.

My scale is a bit more accurate, and I check it against one that is accurate down to the thousandths. One thing I think you may be missing in your image is the SD card. I checked, most of mine weigh right at .248 to .268 g not that a 1/4 g would even register on your scale.

And the argument about a couple grams. Yes, an officer can pull you over and give you a ticket for 1MPH over, but they don't. There is discretion, and likely nothing will happen if you have a 253g drone and no incidents. However it is NOT LEGAL. doing 46 in a 45 is not legal, even if you do not know what the speed limit is. So, that's my point, and the OP coming back and saying that that he/she will be legally flying their sub-250g drone when they know for a fact it is greater than 250g and is not legal. You may never get in trouble for it, but it isn't legal.

So say, you decided that it was close enough and you are going to roll the dice, that's fine, but don't LIE and say it is LEGAL to fly a 253g drone under sub250g rules. It isn't. If you don't believe me, email the FAA helpdesk and ask them if you have a drone that says <250g on it, and you add modification that makes it more than 250g, can you still fly it unregistered. I would bet $1000 they say you have to register it.

And good to know you are an aviation engineer to know exactly how 3 grams on a 238 gram drone will effect it in all circumstances. Actually how much a 5% change in weight would be, since it is 14g on a 238g drone as designed.

I concur that no one is running around with a scale checking every drone before take off. Of course thinking like the OP here will make that a law too, but it isn't for now and no one is checking, but when something does happen, and the FAA finds you were flying illegally and overweight in the first place, your lawyer is going to have a heck of a time trying to convince the judge that you were not negligent and that even though you KNEW that drone was 250+ and that the law based on your 107 cert, you know that was take off weight, that you weren't trying to circumvent the law. I doubt a judge will buy it. So when something happens, you are screwed.

Now, if you are 100% compliant, sub 250g, registered if not, and a Medivac heli hits your drone and there was nothing you could do, you will likely have no fault and no legal issues. But when your 253g unregistered drone hits a medivac heli, you will get fined. If they find enough pieces of it that is...

Final thing, you said you have a 107 Cert as well. It is a lot more likely that a strictly hobby flier gets that wrong, that the base unit is the weight they check, instead of a part 107 (and in court the FAA will bring it up) that you should know because you are fully certified and it was on the test. That it is TAKE OFF weight, not how much it weighs in your basement with no battery in it.

 

[MARK (LI)]

I don't think there's an FAA guy extant who will bust somebody who makes a good faith effort to comply with the 250 gram limit, and mistakenly busts it by a couple of grams.

TCS

You confused me here....you say that you know you exceed the 250 gram threshold...but intend to fly anyway because
"I don't think there's an FAA guy extant who will bust somebody who makes a good faith effort to comply with the 250 gram limit, and mistakenly busts it by a couple of grams." Can you tell me where your good faith effort is?...and how you "mistakenly" go over that limit?....You just can't be bothered and want to hear that it is ok...as already said...your selfish actions bring heat on the rest of us ...knock it off and be responsible.....if you want to fly, the rules are for all of us including you...cough up the 5 dollars and spend a few minutes taking care of your responsibility

 

[thomasoes]

Here in the UK we have to put our operators ID on the mini because of the camera but if we fly over its weight then we would loose all the benefits of a 250 drone

 

[smashse]

Mine was an armchair inquiry as to whether or not my strobed Mini-2s exceeded the 250 gram limit. I thought the answer was "yes", and if so, I'd get them registered. It turns out the answer is, "maybe yes, maybe no".

Nowhere, at any time, did I endorse blowing off the limit, and I have no intention of doing so.



TCS

How is it a maybe yes maybe no? It was PROVEN as FACT multiple times by multiple people that the Mini 2 with a Firehouse Arc V is 100% guaranteed to be over 250g. And based on that FACT, you said you would continue to fly ILLEGALLY.

You make no "good faith" effort to adhere to the rules, ignore the FACT that you will be breaking them, and even say that you don't care that you are breaking them by a "few grams".

And in your story, you turned around and remained a LAWBREAKER in Nevada because the 250g rule doesn't apply to you according to you. You can't pick and choose what laws apply to you, and you are knowingly violating the FAA rules to fly a drone as a Part 107 Certified person.

 

[Chaosrider]

If I am not wrong and please any expert correct me, even if you have part 107 and you have a drone that will not be used for commercial use you can fly as hobbyist rule.

Yes, that's correct, but the recreational rules are different. The 250 gram registration requirement applies to recreational drones as well.

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

So, that's my point, and the OP coming back and saying that that he/she will be legally flying their sub-250g drone when they know for a fact it is greater than 250g and is not legal. You may never get in trouble for it, but it isn't legal.

You proceed from a false premise.

I *DO NOT* know for a fact that my strobed Mini-2s are over 250 grams. If I did, I'd register them all. All I know for a fact is that someone *asserted* that they are over 250 grams.

Very different thing.

My strobes are smaller than the one in the picture.

From the outset for me, this conversation has been about whether or not the strobe I use puts the Mini-2 over 250 grams. It was *NEVER* about what to do if it *IS* over 250 grams, and yet, people just tend to jump there.

It's a little odd...

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

So say, you decided that it was close enough and you are going to roll the dice, that's fine, but don't LIE and say it is LEGAL to fly a 253g drone under sub250g rules.

You seem to have a problem reading and understanding what I actually write. I never said anything like that.

You think I did? Provide an *exact quote* where I said that. Good luck with finding it.

And, from a purely aesthetic standpoint, you seem a bit preachy for my tastes...

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

That it is TAKE OFF weight, not how much it weighs in your basement with no battery in it.

Now you're descending into silly baseless insults.

I'm going to be done with you for a while.

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

You confused me here....you say that you know you exceed the 250 gram threshold...but intend to fly anyway because

Read what I actually wrote again. Then read it again.

I *DID NOT* say anything of the kind. I was making an observation about a hypothetical situation, which should have been reasonably obvious from the context.

Are my strobed Mini-2s under 250 grams? Maybe yes, maybe no. I believe they are. If I come to believe they aren't, they'll get registered. One of them is going to get registered anyhow, for different reasons.

TCS