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The math of Chinese spying...enough with the emotions....

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Donnie Frank

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Hey doods!

So it seems that all this "Chinese Spying" stuff is a really hot topic right now. Everyone seems to have an opinion. There are a lot of opinions going both ways but nobody seems to be doing the math. When I hear terms like "fear mongering" it just makes my blood boil. Using emotions to solve math problems will never, ever, ever be a good idea. And when it comes to the security of our nation, erring to the side of safety seems like a prudent idea to me.

I've been building and fixing computers and networks for 2 decades. And I can tell you from great experience that ANYBODY who claims to know everything there is to know about computers or networking is lying to you. There are many highly-specialized facets of computing that require experts in those specific fields. NOBODY is an expert on all those facets.

So putting emotion aside, here's the REALITY of the situation.

It would take an entire panel of experts from China and the U.S. to truly determine of any data is being harvested by China via DJI drones. While China denies left and right that their drones are sending data to China, "denial" is simply not good enough...not by a long shot.

I find DJI's claims highly erroneous for many reasons;

1) Anything that connects to your iPad, iPhone, Android, etc....ANYTHING....is inherently insecure. Your phone transmits data every chance it gets. There are literally dozens of videos on this subject. Here's just one:


Literally, the only way to insure iPad security is to disable WiFi permanently. But we don't do that. And forget iPHONES. They will never be secure. That said, we can't really permanently disable our WiFi. Why not? Because we have to download map data and, in some cases, SRTM data to work. How else can we complete our missions?

I'm as computer savvy as anybody you know, and even I'm taken by surprise occasionally when the **** iPad does something I didn't expect - like update an app, for instance. This tells me that, despite having a good working knowledge of computers, tablets and networks, I'm STILL not FULLY AWARE of what is going on under the hood. NONE of us are.

2) In a trade war, China has all the motive in the world to steal data from the U.S.

3) Even if we weren't in a trade war, China has all the motive in the world to steal U.S. military secrets, which includes locations, photos, videos, etc.

4) We've all seen the log files kept on the iPad, the app, the Flight Controller, etc. To declare that these log files are "inherently secure" would be a very erroneous assumption.

THE SOLUTION IS CLEAR.

It's up to China to PROVE their drones are NOT transmitting data to China.

If China were serious about its claims, it would send over its top networking engineers to interface with our top military networking experts to put to rest once and for all the "rumor" that China is "stealing data." But China doesn't do that. They haven't even offered to do that. Why not? Why don't they simply send over a panel of networking experts from DJI to put these rumors to rest once and for all?

I'll tell you why:

1) Knowing DJI (who can't even seem to write a manual that isn't in ChinEnglish or garner customer support that isn't a housewife reading a script), simply doesn't have the "networking experts" on staff to talk intelligently with our military networking experts.

2) DJI drones ARE a security leak and DO log data on the iPads. A comprehensive meeting of experts would only confirm guilt for what China has been denying all along.

3) China is unwilling to send DJI engineers to the U.S. for this purpose because they simply don't care.

4) the U.S. is UNWILLING to meet with DJI networking engineers (highly unlikely).

It's clear that, pending complete absolution of all DJI networking/data leaks, erring to the side of safety is a FAR better plan than ASSUMING DJI is NOT harvesting data.

So....enough with the emotional BS. Do the math. Think ahead. Be prudent. Hope for the best but assume the worst. Allow our military to protect their assets without comment from the Peanut Gallery. Because when it comes to networking and security, we are ALL in the Peanut Gallery. Me included.

D
 
This must just be a hot topic in the US? Probably more Politics behind this than truth as it’s absolutely not even a minor story in the rest of the world.
 
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in this modern world of ours from the moment we are born ,data about us is being collected and stored somewhere,the internet has changed the way data is used and once we become part of it it encroaches on i lives in many many ways, and in some instances we have no choice but to be part of it if we want to do certain things in life ,,just take transport now every thing to do with driving our vehicles is on line, and if we want to continue to drive we have no choice but to do it that way its no different to using a mobile phone or flying our drones and how the data that is collected is used is open to abuse all over the planet
 
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Hey doods!

So it seems that all this "Chinese Spying" stuff is a really hot topic right now. Everyone seems to have an opinion. There are a lot of opinions going both ways but nobody seems to be doing the math. When I hear terms like "fear mongering" it just makes my blood boil. Using emotions to solve math problems will never, ever, ever be a good idea. And when it comes to the security of our nation, erring to the side of safety seems like a prudent idea to me.

I've been building and fixing computers and networks for 2 decades. And I can tell you from great experience that ANYBODY who claims to know everything there is to know about computers or networking is lying to you. There are many highly-specialized facets of computing that require experts in those specific fields. NOBODY is an expert on all those facets.

So putting emotion aside, here's the REALITY of the situation.

It would take an entire panel of experts from China and the U.S. to truly determine of any data is being harvested by China via DJI drones. While China denies left and right that their drones are sending data to China, "denial" is simply not good enough...not by a long shot.

I find DJI's claims highly erroneous for many reasons;

1) Anything that connects to your iPad, iPhone, Android, etc....ANYTHING....is inherently insecure. Your phone transmits data every chance it gets. There are literally dozens of videos on this subject. Here's just one:


Literally, the only way to insure iPad security is to disable WiFi permanently. But we don't do that. And forget iPHONES. They will never be secure. That said, we can't really permanently disable our WiFi. Why not? Because we have to download map data and, in some cases, SRTM data to work. How else can we complete our missions?

I'm as computer savvy as anybody you know, and even I'm taken by surprise occasionally when the **** iPad does something I didn't expect - like update an app, for instance. This tells me that, despite having a good working knowledge of computers, tablets and networks, I'm STILL not FULLY AWARE of what is going on under the hood. NONE of us are.

2) In a trade war, China has all the motive in the world to steal data from the U.S.

3) Even if we weren't in a trade war, China has all the motive in the world to steal U.S. military secrets, which includes locations, photos, videos, etc.

4) We've all seen the log files kept on the iPad, the app, the Flight Controller, etc. To declare that these log files are "inherently secure" would be a very erroneous assumption.

THE SOLUTION IS CLEAR.

It's up to China to PROVE their drones are NOT transmitting data to China.

If China were serious about its claims, it would send over its top networking engineers to interface with our top military networking experts to put to rest once and for all the "rumor" that China is "stealing data." But China doesn't do that. They haven't even offered to do that. Why not? Why don't they simply send over a panel of networking experts from DJI to put these rumors to rest once and for all?

I'll tell you why:

1) Knowing DJI (who can't even seem to write a manual that isn't in ChinEnglish or garner customer support that isn't a housewife reading a script), simply doesn't have the "networking experts" on staff to talk intelligently with our military networking experts.

2) DJI drones ARE a security leak and DO log data on the iPads. A comprehensive meeting of experts would only confirm guilt for what China has been denying all along.

3) China is unwilling to send DJI engineers to the U.S. for this purpose because they simply don't care.

4) the U.S. is UNWILLING to meet with DJI networking engineers (highly unlikely).

It's clear that, pending complete absolution of all DJI networking/data leaks, erring to the side of safety is a FAR better plan than ASSUMING DJI is NOT harvesting data.

You may be the best computer expert that anyone has ever seen, but that's a pretty strange post if so. It doesn't require foreign network engineers in order to observe network traffic to and from the DJI apps, and that's been studied extensively. The basic GO 4 app transmits plenty of data to DJI servers, and DJI has been quite open about that. Whether DJI shares any of those data with the Chinese government has not been established but, from the perspective of sensitive national security information, is assumed to be happening, knowingly or otherwise. The Pilot app, in local data mode, is silent, and has been tested sufficiently that I would be less concerned about its data getting out than data from many other apps that are regularly used on government mobile devices.

I'd be very cautious of using any foreign equipment for sensitive operations but, those excepted, drone photos, videos and flight logs are not going to provide much in the way of trade or military secrets.
So....enough with the emotional BS. Do the math. Think ahead. Be prudent. Hope for the best but assume the worst. Allow our military to protect their assets without comment from the Peanut Gallery. Because when it comes to networking and security, we are ALL in the Peanut Gallery. Me included.

You clearly are, but don't assume that you can speak for everyone else here.
 
further to my post #3 above up tp me being 70 years old ,i resisted from getting a photo licence because i did not see why i needed to carry a back door id card, but guess what to be able to continue driving after my 70th birthday i had no choice but to get one they call it progress
 
This must just be a hot topic in the US?

Yes. There aren't a lot of other nations concerned with U.S. Military secrets leaking to China....<;^)



Probably more Politics behind this than truth as it’s absolutely not even a minor story in the rest of the world.

Probably? You might want to research that. And this has been a concern long before there was any economic tension between the U.S. and China. I believe politics has very little to do with it.

D
 
lets take a minute to think what this thread has really to do with flying our drones,i love a good debate as much as the next man, but this is not a political forum or about spying on each other , just saying that all
 
You may be the best computer expert that anyone has ever seen, but that's a pretty strange post if so. It doesn't require foreign network engineers in order to observe network traffic to and from the DJI apps, and that's been studied extensively. The basic GO 4 app transmits plenty of data to DJI servers, and DJI has been quite open about that. Whether DJI shares any of those data with the Chinese government has not been established but, from the perspective of sensitive national security information, is assumed to be happening, knowingly or otherwise.

My point exactly. While I agree that it doesn't require Chinese personnel to sniff network traffic, my point is that if DJI wishes to make any kind of case for "security," it would behoove them to send SOMEBODY. And while you assert that "DJI has been quite open about that," I've seen nothing but denial from DJI. Essentially, it seems they admit to "some stuff" but deny that anything "of military value" is being sent to their servers. Perhaps the disagreement is "what is of military value?" I'm sure our military would argue that even GPS data IS "of military value."




The Pilot app, in local data mode, is silent, and has been tested sufficiently that I would be less concerned about its data getting out than data from many other apps that are regularly used on government mobile devices.

And that was the point of the video I linked. 2 facts are indisputable:

1) The drone transmits and store data on the iPad/iPhone.
2) The iPad/iPhone transmits data to the Internet.

To assert that this is "okay because it's not DJI specifically who is transmitting data" is erroneous from a security point of view. It's like saying the captain's quarters are safe because the leak is at the other end of the ship.




I'd be very cautious of using any foreign equipment for sensitive operations....

Precisely. But there are those who would disagree with you and/or call you "paranoid."



...but, those excepted, drone photos, videos and flight logs are not going to provide much in the way of trade or military secrets.

LOL...yeah...tell that to the military. Aerial photos are the Holy Grail of intel and have been since WW2.



You clearly are, but don't assume that you can speak for everyone else here.

I didn't claim to speak "for" anybody. I'm just saying that anyone who doesn't think data leaks are PLAUSIBLE is not scrutinizing the situation enough. And other than denial, I don't see DJI doing anything to ease military minds. This is why their products have been banned from military installations. It makes perfect sense.

D
 
lets take a minute to think what this thread has really to do with flying our drones,

It honestly has little to do with you or I. This thread is in regard to the military's ban on DJI drones.




i love a good debate as much as the next man, but this is not a political forum or about spying on each other , just saying that all

Imagine if you had told military leaders 20 years ago that "someday in the future, the U.S. will purchase and use foreign equipment that will be used to document or facilitate military operations," they would've called you crazy and locked you up. To pass this off as "progress" is not prudent.

My point of all this is not necessarily that China is gathering intel via their drones. I'm just saying that dismissing this as a POSSIBILITY would be fool hearty.

D
 
if it honestly has little to do with you me or the ordinary person in the street ,then whats the point of bringing the subject up in the first place,it is a subject for the administration and the military,to address ,it isnt going to stop me from flying my DJI drones
 
There are a lot of opinions going both ways but nobody seems to be doing the math. When I hear terms like "fear mongering" it just makes my blood boil. Using emotions to solve math problems will never, ever, ever be a good idea. And when it comes to the security of our nation, erring to the side of safety seems like a prudent idea to me.
Nobody ... particularly the OP in this fearmongering and emotional thread.
When are we going to get to the maths or facts?
 
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I just don't get the angst over data being collected by DJI.

Let's assume that every log that was collected was sent on to China and the Chinese government could access those logs. What value is that information and how is it a security threat?
 
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My point exactly. While I agree that it doesn't require Chinese personnel to sniff network traffic, my point is that if DJI wishes to make any kind of case for "security," it would behoove them to send SOMEBODY. And while you assert that "DJI has been quite open about that," I've seen nothing but denial from DJI. Essentially, it seems they admit to "some stuff" but deny that anything "of military value" is being sent to their servers. Perhaps the disagreement is "what is of military value?" I'm sure our military would argue that even GPS data IS "of military value."

GPS data on what? It's only useful if it reveals specific information that is not otherwise readily available.
And that was the point of the video I linked. 2 facts are indisputable:

1) The drone transmits and store data on the iPad/iPhone.
2) The iPad/iPhone transmits data to the Internet.

To assert that this is "okay because it's not DJI specifically who is transmitting data" is erroneous from a security point of view. It's like saying the captain's quarters are safe because the leak is at the other end of the ship.

If this concern (that the DJI Pilot app isn't transmitting data but the iOS device is somehow transmitting Pilot app data outside the app) then there would be far bigger concerns about the security of iOS devices in general than with DJI drone data. The US Government would be banning official use of iPhones and iPads.
Precisely. But there are those who would disagree with you and/or call you "paranoid."

I haven't seen anyone disagree on this specific use case.
LOL...yeah...tell that to the military. Aerial photos are the Holy Grail of intel and have been since WW2.

Indeed, but not when it comes to subjects that can be photographed by the general public anyway. The camera being airborne simply means that the subject must be outdoors, and observable by satellite, aircraft, or perhaps even someone on the ground.
I didn't claim to speak "for" anybody. I'm just saying that anyone who doesn't think data leaks are PLAUSIBLE is not scrutinizing the situation enough. And other than denial, I don't see DJI doing anything to ease military minds. This is why their products have been banned from military installations. It makes perfect sense.

Yes you did - you wrote "Allow our military to protect their assets without comment from the Peanut Gallery. Because when it comes to networking and security, we are ALL in the Peanut Gallery. Me included."

You already placed yourself in the "peanut gallery", so how would you expect to be aware of the interactions between DJI and US Government agencies?
 
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I just don't get the angst over data being collected by DJI.

Let's assume that every log that was collected was sent on to China and the Chinese government could access those logs. What value is that information and how is it a security threat?

It's been a concern in the past when DJI drones were used by the military as part of sensitive exercises and operations, where the GPS data and images/video could be of value to an adversary.
 
It's been a concern in the past when DJI drones were used by the military as part of sensitive exercises and operations, where the GPS data and images/video could be of value to an adversary.
In the past yes, but it's not a current issue. Department of Defense banned basically all off the shelf drone hardware, due to security concerns. My comments were in reference to what the OP had posted.
 
if it honestly has little to do with you me or the ordinary person in the street ,then whats the point of bringing the subject up in the first place,

Because it's a highly discussed subject in the drone community. You can do a search in this very forum for several threads on the subject.


it is a subject for the administration and the military,to address ,it isnt going to stop me from flying my DJI drones

Nobody is trying to stop you from flying your drones. My objective is to make people think twice before they may ridiculous comments regarding the military's decision to ground all Chinese drones.

D
 
Dear Donnie,we all know that the president,of your wonderful country has as he states ,the best interests of the american people at the heart of his administration,and that he wants to boost the economy by ensuring people in the U.S.A purchase goods made in the USA as apposed to buying from abroad ,it does not matter what reason he has come up with to ban DJI products from being used by military,or law enforcement and even SAR, the sad truth is that in order to do so he will need to offer an alternative US sourced drone with the same capabilities and price point to meet their needs, i have not or would ever ridiculed his intentions, it is something for the american people to deal with good luck
 
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