Thoughts on proper exposure for DLog M? Expose to the right?

[Flyguy95r]

Hello, I’m a big advocate of ETTR (exposing to the right) for Log profiles (Sony, Panasonic , Canon etc) and also with the Phantom 4 Pro

I expose my P4P D-Log footage a full EV+2 to amazing results with very minimal highlights clipping if none at all.
I’ve noticed that the dynamic range on the M2P doesn’t seem to go as far as the P4P and it clips the highlights much sooner than the P4P does. Has anyone experimented with over exposing Log on the M2P and found any sweet spots? So far I would say it’s safe to go +0.7 but that’s only been at ISO 100. I’ll be testing out ISO 400 (much like the P4P’s ISO lock at 500 for DLog) later today.

 

[CanadaDrone]

See my ETTR explanation here:

Best camera settings for Mavic 2 Pro (guide)

There are both advantages and disadvantages, depending on the specific scene and scenario. The 'sweet spot' is ever changing, unless you are taking stills. There is no set number you can dial in if you want to make sure you avoid highlight clipping. ETTR is also pointless off of base ISO because introducing unnecessary noise into the image just to darken it leaves you no further ahead.

 

[Flyguy95r]

See my ETTR explanation here:

Best camera settings for Mavic 2 Pro (guide)

There are both advantages and disadvantages, depending on the specific scene and scenario. The 'sweet spot' is ever changing, unless you are taking stills. There is no set number you can dial in if you want to make sure you avoid highlight clipping. ETTR is also pointless off of base ISO because introducing unnecessary noise into the image just to darken it leaves you no further ahead.

Well I just got back from trying it at ISO 400 and it definitely didn’t open up any more useable DR. If anything I feel like it somehow made it worse.
I’ll be sticking with ISO 100 for D Log M on the M2P most likely. And it seems that EV+0.7 is the safe limit for ETTR (sometimes EV+1 but yes it situation dependant)

It’s a a little disappointing because the higher you can safely expose then the cleaner the image overal becomes when pushing it all back down in post as you’re pushing down the noise BUT yes, there’s the balancing act of the signal to noise ratio to not introduce unnecessary noise to begin with higher ISO’s

The image looks great but IRE 100 (Zebras) seem to appear so quick (EV+0.7) compared to the P4P (EV+2)

 

[CanadaDrone]

Well I just got back from trying it at ISO 400 and it definitely didn’t open up any more useable DR. If anything I feel like it somehow made it worse.
I’ll be sticking with ISO 100 for D Log M on the M2P most likely. And it seems that EV+0.7 is the safe limit for ETTR (sometimes EV+1 but yes it situation dependant)

It’s a a little disappointing because the higher you can safely expose then the cleaner the image overal becomes when pushing it all back down in post as you’re pushing down the noise BUT yes, there’s the balancing act of the signal to noise ratio to not introduce unnecessary noise to begin with higher ISO’s

The image looks great but IRE 100 (Zebras) seem to appear so quick (EV+0.7) compared to the P4P (EV+2)

It will make it worse at ISO400 since ETTR at higher ISO's not only make it easier to overexpose, but also you are just introducing more noise. That noise is still there when you darken the image again. You only want to be using it at base ISO - there are some exceptions but not really for video. The sensor's well capacity at higher ISO's is exponentially less which makes it really easy to blow the highlights.

Many scenes/subjects also do not work properly with ETTR, which his the danger of leaving constant +EV dialed in. Up to you though of course - if you find something that works for you, go for it.

If you can shoot a P4P all day long at EV+2 (over a proper exposure) with no blown highlights, there is something else going on. No sensor can do that, not even my $4500 Nikon D850. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you though.

 

[jwischka]

It will make it worse at ISO400 since ETTR at higher ISO's not only make it easier to overexpose, but also you are just introducing more noise. That noise is still there when you darken the image again. You only want to be using it at base ISO - there are some exceptions but not really for video. The sensor's well capacity at higher ISO's is exponentially less which makes it really easy to blow the highlights.

Many scenes/subjects also do not work properly with ETTR, which his the danger of leaving constant +EV dialed in. Up to you though of course - if you find something that works for you, go for it.

If you can shoot a P4P all day long at EV+2 (over a proper exposure) with no blown highlights, there is something else going on. No sensor can do that, not even my $4500 Nikon D850. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you though.

ETTR isn't just about noise, though. Yes, you'll amplify your shot noise when you aren't at base ISO, but that's not really why ETTR is beneficial.

Before I go into a major critique, let me make sure you're saying what I think you're saying. It seems to me like your argument is that if you are shooting at anything other than base ISO (we'll take ISO 400 for the sake of argument), you're better off exposing at whatever the meter says (we'll say "properly" exposing) rather than exposing to the right, correct?

So constructing a hypothetical example, let's say that we were taking a picture of something that, at ISO 400, had a "proper" exposure that produced a gaussian histogram centered at the midpoint of our histogram (with log-scaling, of course) at 1/250, f2.8. Is your argument that an image shot at 1/125 or 1/60 which did not have the highlights clipped would be worse, or at the very least no better than the image at 1/250 when corrected?

*IF* what you're saying is that you shouldn't simply raise your ISO to ETTR (leaving other settings unchanged), that's one thing. But that's a really different argument than saying that ETTR has no benefit at anything other than base ISO.

 

[Flyguy95r]

It will make it worse at ISO400 since ETTR at higher ISO's not only make it easier to overexpose, but also you are just introducing more noise. That noise is still there when you darken the image again. You only want to be using it at base ISO - there are some exceptions but not really for video. The sensor's well capacity at higher ISO's is exponentially less which makes it really easy to blow the highlights.

Many scenes/subjects also do not work properly with ETTR, which his the danger of leaving constant +EV dialed in. Up to you though of course - if you find something that works for you, go for it.

If you can shoot a P4P all day long at EV+2 (over a proper exposure) with no blown highlights, there is something else going on. No sensor can do that, not even my $4500 Nikon D850. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you though.

Lots of good points, DJI locked the Log ISO at 500 for the P4P with their reasoning being that it had the most DR at that ISO but I’m not seeing any benefits trying to replicate that with the M2P.

As far as how many stops to over expose for Log I think it really it depends on the sensor. For S-Log on Sony’s it’s 2 stops as their sensors don’t clip until IRE 110 but for my 1DX ii it’s only 1 and 1/3 stops max. I’m not a Nikon shooter but it seems to fit that it’s around 1 stop(ish) from everything I see online but I’m not sure what the Z7 will be as it has the new N-Log. I know Panasonic’s V Log with the highlights clip at 80 IRE so 2 stops would probably do some damage there.

 

[Roamer105]

I found that the M2P does a pretty good job in the shadows even at EV0 when shooting Dlog and even pushing only little to the right is critical to clipping highlights. I noticed that switching between Dlog and Normal already changes the exposure settings a lot. For some reason Normal requires nearly 2 stops more light than DlogM on the same subject. So maybe DlogM aromatically exposes to the right by a significant amount.

 

[Flyguy95r]

I found that the M2P does a pretty good job in the shadows even at EV0 when shooting Dlog and even pushing only little to the right is critical to clipping highlights. I noticed that switching between Dlog and Normal already changes the exposure settings a lot. For some reason Normal requires nearly 2 stops more light than DlogM on the same subject. So maybe DlogM aromatically exposes to the right by a significant amount.

This is starting to look more and more plausible for sure. I’ve also noticed D Log M doesn’t quite look as flat as regular D log (P4P) so its not playing by the same rules as regular D log. Dlog M definitely has deeper shadows than regular D log so it would make sense that the shadows aren’t going to get as lifted before clipping of the highlights occur.

 

[SteelFlyer]

This is starting to look more and more plausible for sure. I’ve also noticed D Log M doesn’t quite look as flat as regular D log (P4P) so its not playing by the same rules as regular D log. Dlog M definitely has deeper shadows than regular D log so it would make sense that the shadows aren’t going to get as lifted before clipping of the highlights occur.

I have not played with the exposure settings that much but so far I concur that Dlog-M seems to work very well at EV0. This explanation seems to make sense to me.

 

[Roamer105]

This is starting to look more and more plausible for sure. I’ve also noticed D Log M doesn’t quite look as flat as regular D log (P4P) so its not playing by the same rules as regular D log. Dlog M definitely has deeper shadows than regular D log so it would make sense that the shadows aren’t going to get as lifted before clipping of the highlights occur.

I have been very successful using EV0 and post the footage with SkyGrades Natural Shadows. You can always lift the shadows just a little and then adjust the gain/highlights for best rendition. I use Resolve 15 studio.

 

[Flyguy95r]

I have been very successful using EV0 and post the footage with SkyGrades Natural Shadows. You can always lift the shadows just a little and then adjust the gain/highlights for best rendition. I use Resolve 15 studio.

Are you liking the skygrades luts? I was possibly going to pick them up and try them out.
I’m still hesitant to record at EV0 because I usually grade really dark and moody for personal projects, So I try to push it as high as possible for a good signal to noise for my highlights as they’re Getting pulled down to about 80 IRE with the shadows going to like...1 IRE haha

I have not played with the exposure settings that much but so far I concur that Dlog-M seems to work very well at EV0. This explanation seems to make sense to me.

Aside from 0 being the safe bet, Let me know what you guys feel comfortable pushing it to after some time. I think right now I feel pretty safe at EV+0.7 and possibly EV+1 in certain situations but anything after that are usually blown highlights for sure.