To VLS or not to VLS? That is the question?!

mavic6611 · May 15, 2017

Johnmcl7 said:
I'm not referring to simple pilot error cases - there's numerous cases on this forum where the Mavic has been completely out of visual range, it's disconnected and then people have posted asking for help here to try and find what happened as at that point the camera you're relying on is now useless. There's been some great help in tracking down the crashed drones but if the owner was within VLOS, they would have been able to see what the drone was doing and potentially saved it before it crashed.

There is a curious sense of denial about VLOS (as well as an odd inconsistency with the acceptance of its illegality), if you can't see the drone at all then quite simply there is more risk - it's up to those flying the drones whether it's worth the risk to them particularly given the significant range the Mavic has which can mean it can take too long to get to its location when something goes wrong. There was a video posted recently where a Mavic user has been flying over the memorial at the south of the UK and ended up losing it, in his video he explained everything he believed he did wrong but he never even mentioned that flying out of VLOS was one of the main contributing factors. He'd been unable to distinguish the landscape on the Mavic's camera and because it was completely out of VLOS he hadn't realised the Mavic wasn't flying in the correct direction, if he'd been able to see the Mavic he'd have been able to get it home without issue.

John

I'm not sure how being out of VLS would be a contributing factor? whether in VLS or not, if the aircraft is coming down due to failure or flying erratically then there's probably not a **** thing you'll be able to do about it. Also if the Mavic lost connection it's highly unlikely it's anything other than not setting RTH upon disconnection or not securing the battery. It's mainly pilot error. Again nothing to do with VLS or not. I'm not sure denial comes into this, it's more a case that there are most definitely fores and againsts on this topic. But not denial.
So what kind of height and distance horizontally do you tend to fly at?
Hmm again this guy you talk of was most definitely wreckless, as he was flying in an unknown area without knowledge of the landscape. Flying out of VLS would have been fine if he would have planned his route properly would it not?
A bit like an airline pilot flying off not knowing his route would be a ridiculous thing to do. The two are quite comparable in there own right.

mavic6611 · May 15, 2017

mavic6611 said:
I'm not sure how being out of VLS would be a contributing factor? whether in VLS or not, if the aircraft is coming down due to failure or flying erratically then there's probably not a **** thing you'll be able to do about it. Also if the Mavic lost connection it's highly unlikely it's anything other than not setting RTH upon disconnection or not securing the battery. It's mainly pilot error. Again nothing to do with VLS or not. I'm not sure denial comes into this, it's more a case that there are most definitely fores and againsts on this topic. But not denial.
So what kind of height and distance horizontally do you tend to fly at?
Hmm again this guy you talk of was most definitely wreckless, as he was flying in an unknown area without knowledge of the landscape. Flying out of VLS would have been fine if he would have planned his route properly would it not?
A bit like an airline pilot flying off not knowing his route would be a ridiculous thing to do. The two are quite comparable in there own right.

Also when you mention the distance capabilities of the Mavic and not being able to RTH, are you aware that dji have already taken care of this by giving the option for the aircraft to take over and auto RTH upon the battery calculations being only at a level to get back to the home point?

Johnmcl7 · May 15, 2017

mavic6611 said:
Also when you mention the distance capabilities of the Mavic and not being able to RTH, are you aware that dji have already taken care of this by giving the option for the aircraft to take over and auto RTH upon the battery calculations being only at a level to get back to the home point?

I'm well aware of the Mavic's auto RTH abilities and also well aware of the limitations of that mode as well, as I've said there's plenty of threads here where the drone has been well out of VLOS, it's disconnected and then never returned home as it crashed on the way back or there some other problem. In some cases what happened has been worked out and people have found their crashed drones, other times it hasn't.

John

mavic6611 · May 15, 2017

Johnmcl7 said:
I'm well aware of the Mavic's auto RTH abilities and also well aware of the limitations of that mode as well, as I've said there's plenty of threads here where the drone has been well out of VLOS, it's disconnected and then never returned home as it crashed on the way back or there some other problem. In some cases what happened has been worked out and people have found their crashed drones, other times it hasn't.

John

Yea but all pilot errors John. I read all these lost drone stories too. It's unusual Dorset a Mavic to just drop out of the sky unless something like motor failure which is again unusual

Johnmcl7 · May 15, 2017

mavic6611 said:
I'm not sure how being out of VLS would be a contributing factor? whether in VLS or not, if the aircraft is coming down due to failure or flying erratically then there's probably not a **** thing you'll be able to do about it. Also if the Mavic lost connection it's highly unlikely it's anything other than not setting RTH upon disconnection or not securing the battery. It's mainly pilot error. Again nothing to do with VLS or not. I'm not sure denial comes into this, it's more a case that there are most definitely fores and againsts on this topic. But not denial.
So what kind of height and distance horizontally do you tend to fly at?
Hmm again this guy you talk of was most definitely wreckless, as he was flying in an unknown area without knowledge of the landscape. Flying out of VLS would have been fine if he would have planned his route properly would it not?
A bit like an airline pilot flying off not knowing his route would be a ridiculous thing to do. The two are quite comparable in there own right.

As you mentioned in your following post, if the drone is out of VLOS and it disconnects you're entirely reliant on the RTH system functioning without issue which in many cases does happen but in some cases it doesn't. There are threads almost daily here about people flying Mavics out of range, they disconnect and never return home and because they couldn't see the drone they're relying on the experts here trawling through logs to figure it out. If they were able to see the drone at worst they'd know where it crashed and at best may be able to save it., I've had my phone hard lock and I've had the Mavic unexpectedly switch to ATTI mode and neither were an issue as I guided the Mavic back in visually. RTH may have worked in the former case, maybe not but it definitely wouldn't have worked in the latter without GPS.

In terms of the distance I fly, it's highly dependent on the conditions that the time as in some conditions it's more difficult to make out the Mavic, others it's easier.

There is a higher risk when flying outwith VLOS whether you choose to keep denying it or not, flying the Mavic in any situation is a risk and it's up to individual users how much risk they wish to take with it.

John

Johnmcl7 · May 15, 2017

mavic6611 said:
Yea but all pilot errors John. I read all these lost drone stories too. It's unusual Dorset a Mavic to just drop out of the sky unless something like motor failure which is again unusual

It's funny you post about not being in denial then deny absolutely everything by incorrectly blaming it all on pilot error (I'd genuinely love to know how the controller disconnecting and the drone switching to ATTI mode is pilot error, sounds like you'd be great for DJI support), you clearly have not not read any of these lost drone stories at all otherwise you wouldn't be incorrectly blaming them on pilot error.

John

mavic6611 · May 15, 2017

Maybe post one of the stories you refer to which confirms none pilot error?

Karl2951 · May 15, 2017

I love flying my mavic at distance and always use the camera as i feel more in control. There a lot of comments on here suggesting that keeping below its ceiling will be safe dur to planes and helicopters staying above that height unless taking off or landing. Think about this, i fly my helicopter out checking electricity power lines ususally between 40 and 100ft, well below the ceiling. Imagine being out of vlos and see me down so low?!! Poop!!!

mavic6611 · May 15, 2017

Yes the same applies for police Helicopters, usually not to drop the ceiling height of 500ft. These are the cases to be aware of especially going beyond VLS.
But again it's everyone's airspace and manned aircraft most certainly have right of way. However it's everyone's responsibility whether manned or unmanned to be safe sensible and aware.
Looking at the new Matrices, that has aircraft detection on-board to sense oncoming aircraft. I'm pretty sure this will be mandatory in all UAV'S within the next few years to combat any potential collisions between manned and unmanned aircraft

Gary cato · May 15, 2017

I see both sides and have to admit to flying BLVOS around 50 percent of my flying. I just looked at my you tube videos and most of them are BVLOS at some point.

One i Fly over 3 kilos to film an island inhabited by one person out in Thailand (beautiful little island) i was looking at three islands from a beach house in Thailand, They looked to me to be not too far out. by the time i got to the two outer islands to film the furthest, i found myself at 3500m out.

Distances can be really deceptive

Another was 4 kilos over a valley in a National park in Thailand (yes it is allowed). The take off point was a view point at 743 ASL the ground sloped down, i flew straight out and at 4 kilos i guess i was 200 feet above the valley floor.

Both times i had been there before and had taken a good look before flying, The Valley for me was also a fantastic flight but i have to say way more nervy than over the water to the Islands.

LOS was so easy to lose at one point on the beach i was 10 metres high and 50 meters away, i looked at my screen a split second, when i looked up the Mavic had completely blended into the background of one of the islands, So I asked the two people i was with to see if they could see the drone. They could not locate it at all until i lifted up 25 metres where it came back into focus. In that blind time anything could have happened as it could BVLOS and maybe worse as when i was over water after two hundred meters, there was nothing but open sea. i kept low and at least had two people scouting for planes but everyone on the island assured me the chance of seeing any kind of air traffic had never been known while they had been on the island.

At 80 meters high we could see the drone out at nearly a kilo away, i then went up to 90m to keep signal until i got to the Island and for fun i RTH it back. so i can have a ciggarrette in peace (discounting the bleeping of course). Easily drowned out by the GF complaining she is too hot or hungry or thirsty and why am i not taking video of her instead of an island. (here i use the rule i am sorry but no flying around people he he ).

I really do see both sides but sometimes it just feels right and comfortable. When it feels that way i will take her on a run.

mavic6611 · May 15, 2017

Gary cato said:
I see both sides and have to admit to flying BLVOS around 50 percent of my flying. I just looked at my you tube videos and most of them are BVLOS at some point.

One i Fly over 3 kilos to film an island inhabited by one person out in Thailand (beautiful little island) i was looking at three islands from a beach house in Thailand, They looked to me to be not too far out. by the time i got to the two outer islands to film the furthest, i found myself at 3500m out.

Distances can be really deceptive

Another was 4 kilos over a valley in a National park in Thailand (yes it is allowed). The take off point was a view point at 743 ASL the ground sloped down, i flew straight out and at 4 kilos i guess i was 200 feet above the valley floor.

Both times i had been there before and had taken a good look before flying, The Valley for me was also a fantastic flight but i have to say way more nervy than over the water to the Islands.

LOS was so easy to lose at one point on the beach i was 10 metres high and 50 meters away, i looked at my screen a split second, when i looked up the Mavic had completely blended into the background of one of the islands, So I asked the two people i was with to see if they could see the drone. They could not locate it at all until i lifted up 25 metres where it came back into focus. In that blind time anything could have happened as it could BVLOS and maybe worse as when i was over water after two hundred meters, there was nothing but open sea. i kept low and at least had two people scouting for planes but everyone on the island assured me the chance of seeing any kind of air traffic had never been known while they had been on the island.

At 80 meters high we could see the drone out at nearly a kilo away, i then went up to 90m to keep signal until i got to the Island and for fun i RTH it back. so i can have a ciggarrette in peace (discounting the bleeping of course). Easily drowned out by the GF complaining she is too hot or hungry or thirsty and why am i not taking video of her instead of an island. (here i use the rule i am sorry but no flying around people he he ).

I really do see both sides but sometimes it just feels right and comfortable. When it feels that way i will take her on a run.

I absolutely agree, it's so much easier to fly this way. VLS simply means looking at the aircraft and the telemetry and the camera all whilst maintaining control. But BVLS to me simply means enjoying the flight and relaxing whilst looking straight through the camera.
Nice calm flying with a good degree of faith in the aircraft prevents panicking and lessons the risk of pilot error which in my mind = Safer.

Lone Wolf 58 · May 15, 2017

I'm kind of split on this myself. At this point because of my ability and the aircraft I would have to lean on the side of safety and VLOS.

The technology has gotten better and the range has gotten so much better and FPV has been introduced and is the way of the future. However. There are still to many fly offs where the aircraft takes off with no one in control. An out of control aircraft is dangerous. You can't predict what the result is going to be.

If your out in the middle of no where the risk could be minimal. But as we see what allot of people post they are not in the middle of no where. They are in there neighborhood where the population is enough to have concern.

Like I've said so many times. Don't make me be your keeper. Think twice, then rethink again before you do what you think is best. Be responsible and do the right thing if things go wrong. If things go great rejoice in the day.

Technology is moving forward in leaps and bounds and it won't be long before you can fly for miles and miles FPV safely. Until then. VLOS for safety.

Sorry man. Just my opinion

mavic6611 · May 15, 2017

I absolutely agree with your opinion contrary to my own beliefs on the fores vs againsts. I definitely don't think that anyone could ever be criticised for airing on the side of Caution. I do however firmly believe that the majority of mishaps are certainly pilot errors not all of course but certainly the majority.
Again it's all down to personal choice and I knew that opening this post would pop a can of worms open as this entire topic is one big rabbit Warren with so many outlooks and opinions so it's great to have a healthy debate to see where it leads to. Unfortunately too many people post there opinions but don't give a reason why, which to me is floored. However alot of people have gave some good reasons fore and against including yourself mate. Thanks for your input. Happy flying [emoji2]

Rnl · May 15, 2017

mavic6611 said:
Sounds cool mate, I look forward to seeing your video [emoji3][/

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Rnl · May 15, 2017

Got sound messed up, first try making clip.

Rnl · May 15, 2017

Can't get these boos. They get little smell and they are gone.

Rnl · May 15, 2017

Can't get these with Vlos

mavic6611 · May 16, 2017

You got some great little shots there mate. What part of the world are you in?
I think you need to slow your gimble speed down in settings. It will make for a much smoother movement on the video.

Gary cato · May 16, 2017

mavic6611 said:
I absolutely agree, it's so much easier to fly this way. VLS simply means looking at the aircraft and the telemetry and the camera all whilst maintaining control. But BVLS to me simply means enjoying the flight and relaxing whilst looking straight through the camera.
Nice calm flying with a good degree of faith in the aircraft prevents panicking and lessons the risk of pilot error which in my mind = Safer.