USFS Drone Possession Illegal

[BigAl07]

I looked up 36 CFR § 261.18 which the sign cites as the legal authority behind the prohibition. This purports to ban the possession of "motorized equipment" in wilderness areas. According to the same chapter in the regulations, "motorized equipment" is defined as:



So the law itself seems to exclude smaller battery powered devices, and even gives cameras as an example. I wonder if anyone who has received a ticket under that regulation has argued that the posession of a drone could fit into that exception as well. Something like a Mavic Air isn't really larger than a full frame DSLR camera, has photography as one of its main functions, and is also battery powered.

That said, it's probably better to not tempt fate and avoid getting the ticket in the first place.

But they cited 36 CFR § 261.18 (a)(c) and when you look at (c) it pretty well locks it down
(c) Landing of aircraft, or dropping or picking up of any material, supplies, or person by means of aircraft, including a helicopter.

I know someone is going to say, "But it doesn't restrict Taking Off" (rolls my eyes preemptively LOL)

 

[dawgpilot]

But they cited 36 CFR § 261.18 (a)(c) and when you look at (c) it pretty well locks it down
(c) Landing of aircraft, or dropping or picking up of any material, supplies, or person by means of aircraft, including a helicopter.

I know someone is going to say, "But it doesn't restrict Taking Off" (rolls my eyes preemptively LOL)

I'm not trying to argue around the prohibition regarding flying in the wilderness areas. Just the ban on mere possession of a drone in your backpack while hiking through.

 

[AMann]

So I ride an area in California which borders a wilderness area in my Polaris RZR and I take my drone with me. It leads up to Cattle Mt in central California. They have an established OHV trail to the top which winds in and out of the wilderness area. Wonder how they'll react to my drone if discovered.

That trail itself is not in wilderness if you can legally drive on it, its probably cherry stemmed with wilderness boundaries just off the trail on both sides.

 

[sar104]

The law doesn't actually list powered aircraft as a type of item where mere possession is banned. (flying it is a different matter)

Sure it does. A powered aircraft falls under 36 CFR 261.18 (a):

§ 261.18 National Forest Wilderness.
The following are prohibited in a National Forest Wilderness:

(a) Possessing or using a motor vehicle, motorboat or motorized equipment except as authorized by Federal Law or regulation.

 

[dawgpilot]

Sure it does. A powered aircraft falls under 36 CFR 261.18 (a):

§ 261.18 National Forest Wilderness.
The following are prohibited in a National Forest Wilderness:

(a) Possessing or using a motor vehicle, motorboat or motorized equipment except as authorized by Federal Law or regulation.

We are going in circles here. Motorized Equipment is further defined in the law, and I quoted the legal definition with my original reply.

 

[sar104]

We are going in circles here. Motorized Equipment is further defined in the law, and I quoted the legal definition with my original reply.

Agreed: Motorized equipment means any equipment having or using an engine or motor, except small battery-powered handheld devices such as cameras, shavers, flashlights, and Geiger counters.

A drone clearly falls under that. A camera doesn't, but a drone is not just a camera. You couldn't add a camera to a chainsaw and call it good, for example.

 

[dawgpilot]

Agreed: Motorized equipment means any equipment having or using an engine or motor, except small battery-powered handheld devices such as cameras, shavers, flashlights, and Geiger counters.

A drone clearly falls under that. A camera doesn't, but a drone is not just a camera. You couldn't add a camera to a chainsaw and call it good, for example.

A chainsaw typically isn't small, handheld and battery operated. That given list isn't an exhaustive list, but is describing the types of personal property that are generally excluded from the overall definition.

I would personally argue that a drone is much more akin to a camera (the primary purpose of a drone is also effectively to take photographs and video), and the other forms of permitted property here. I understand if you disagree, and ultimately the decision would be up to a federal judge if this was going to be argued.

In reality, unless you are openly carrying a drone, the authorities have no legal ability to search your property anyway unless you have done something else to give them probable cause.

 

[sar104]

A chainsaw typically isn't small, handheld and battery operated. That given list isn't an exhaustive list, but is describing the types of personal property that are generally excluded from the overall definition.

I would personally argue that a drone is much more akin to a camera (the primary purpose of a drone is also effectively to take photographs and video), and the other forms of permitted property here. I understand if you disagree, and ultimately the decision would be up to a federal judge if this was going to be argued.

In reality, unless you are openly carrying a drone, the authorities have no legal ability to search your property anyway unless you have done something else to give them probable cause.

You could certainly argue that small drones are closer to cameras than bigger motorized equipment, but even a Mavic Pro is a lot more than a camera, as well as being defined as an aircraft, so disqualified from use on those grounds.

 

[GadgetGuy]

The Denver Water Board threatened to arrest me for trespass if I rode my e-bike in Waterton Canyon, 50 kM SW of Denver, citing a USFS internal memo prohibiting motorized vehicles on USFS land. I left the battery in my truck, thus making it JUST A BICYCLE. They still threatened arrest for trespass, even though it had no battery, and was JUST A BICYCLE. Note, they ALLOW BICYCLES, but won't allow an e-bike "Without The E." I have it on video!

I suspect they treat it like a gun without any ammunition in it. You could have ammunition stashed nearby, i.e., a buddy could be carrying your battery in a backpack on his regular bike, and hand it to back to you when no one else is around. A gun without ammo is still a gun. An eBike without a battery installed is still an eBike. I think it is a stupid rule to prohibit eBikes but allow regular bikes. Could also be a speed issue. Hard to fly up a hill without an eBike battery assist. Love my Rad Rover!

 

[Roc Rat]

The Denver Water Board threatened to arrest me for trespass if I rode my e-bike in Waterton Canyon, 50 kM SW of Denver, citing a USFS internal memo prohibiting motorized vehicles on USFS land. I left the battery in my truck, thus making it JUST A BICYCLE. They still threatened arrest for trespass, even though it had no battery, and was JUST A BICYCLE. Note, they ALLOW BICYCLES, but won't allow an e-bike "Without The E." I have it on video!

Trump just removed the restrictions on the use of e-bikes in all US Forests. The US Forest Service is to power hungry and driven by radical environmentalists...thats just my opinion.
.

 

[sar104]

Trump just removed the restrictions on the use of e-bikes in all US Forests. The US Forest Service is to power hungry and driven by radical environmentalists...thats just my opinion.
.

E-bikes were classified as motorized vehicles (which obviously they are), similar to dirt bikes, and so prohibited where motorized vehicles were prohibited. They have now reclassified them as non-motorized vehicles, which permits their use anywhere that bicycles are allowed. That's going to cause significant problems on more technical trails and I suspect that they will either have to refine it to restrict use to FRs or will end up further restricting mountain bike use.

 

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

If you really want to possess (and we’ll assume fly, for the sake of argument) a drone in a defined Wilderness Area then [...]

For the sake of another argument, I am going on a multi-state road trip next week. I might visit wilderness areas but have NO plans on flying in one. But I will have my drone with me, for flights where it's allowed.

I guess that mean that wilderness area visits are prohibited for any of my road-trip, even though I'm carrying my drone with me only for the purposes of legal photography, and that sucks.

Chris

 

[KS-6]

For the sake of another argument, I am going on a multi-state road trip next week. I might visit wilderness areas but have NO plans on flying in one. But I will have my drone with me, for flights where it's allowed.

I guess that mean that wilderness area visits are prohibited for any of my road-trip, even though I'm carrying my drone with me only for the purposes of legal photography, and that sucks.

Chris

I'm pretty sure if you don't show and tell and certainly not fly it then no one will really bother you. I had my drone packed in my truck yesterday for an evening shoot all while I hiked and made photos using cameras in a wilderness area for the better part of the day.

I was not and I am not the least bit concerned with it.

 

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

I'm pretty sure if you don't show and tell and certainly not fly it then no one will really bother you. I had my drone packed in my truck yesterday for an evening shoot all while I hiked and made photos using cameras in a wilderness area for the better part of the day.

I was not and I am not the least bit concerned with it.

It's still a concern to me. If I visit an area where they have been having problems, they might spot check cars. Now I feel like I did in the 70s when I had to find creative places to hide that baggie from site and search.

Chris

 

[sar104]

It's still a concern to me. If I visit an area where they have been having problems, they might spot check cars. Now I feel like I did in the 70s when I had to find creative places to hide that baggie from site and search.

Chris

If it's in your car then it's not in the wilderness. Cars are prohibited in wilderness areas.

 

[Not A Speck Of Cereal]

If it's in your car then it's not in the wilderness. Cars are prohibited in wilderness areas.

I just checked some of the local wilderness areas I've frequented and you are correct, the road up to and the trial-head parking lots are just outside the wilderness boundary. I hope that proves true in other areas / states.

Thanks, Chris

 

[FlyingGary]

Interesting that they even worded it correctly, prohibiting landing and piloting. Don’t let California State Parks see that!

 

[ajkm]

I looked up 36 CFR § 261.18 which the sign cites as the legal authority behind the prohibition. This purports to ban the possession of "motorized equipment" in wilderness areas. According to the same chapter in the regulations, "motorized equipment" is defined as:

So the law itself seems to exclude smaller battery powered devices, and even gives cameras as an example. I wonder if anyone who has received a ticket under that regulation has argued that the posession of a drone could fit into that exception as well.

The rules relating to legal interpretation are based on the principle of sui generis - in other words, an item can only be inferred as included in a list if it is of the same nature as the specified items. A drone does not fit within a definition of “small battery-powered handheld devices”; this legal position would be backed up by the ban on and definition provided of “motorized equipment”.

 

[sar104]

I just checked some of the local wilderness areas I've frequented and you are correct, the road up to and the trial-head parking lots are just outside the wilderness boundary. I hope that proves true in other areas / states.

Thanks, Chris

It is (and has to be) true everywhere, since one of the fundamental characteristics and restrictions of designated wilderness is that no motorized vehicles are permitted without specific authorization, which is typically only granted for emergency response.

 

[Thomas B]

I just checked some of the local wilderness areas I've frequented and you are correct, the road up to and the trial-head parking lots are just outside the wilderness boundary. I hope that proves true in other areas / states.

Thanks, Chris

However... remember that the minimum altitude for any aircraft over a designated U.S. wilderness area is 2000’ AGL. This effectively prevents routine flying of drones over these areas.