We, as a group, can do better than this . . .

[Chaosrider]

"And an $11,000 fine if you break one of those 8 rules."

I'm not aware of any cases where a single violation of the recreational rules brought any fine at all. Can you point me to some references for significant fines for a single violation?

I think ol' Donnie is just pulling our collective chain.

Which can be interesting for a little while, but it gets old quickly.

MM

 

[Chaosrider]

Did he really know the consequences? Are you sure he knew that he would be fined $182K? I'm going to guess not.

I'll bet he does now...

Where are you going with all of this? What are you looking to accomplish with this seemingly endless rant?

MM

 

[Chaosrider]

Bingo. If your assertion that "rules are rules regardless of their rationality," well then we've hit common ground. As long as we all agree to morbidly obey irrational rules, regulations and laws, then the rest of us will be forced to do the same. The dumbing down of society.... Don't think. Obey.

Have you ever seen the movie, "They Live"?

If not, you should give it a shot. I think it would be a good fit for you!

A very short recap of a longer post that I previously made on this subject:

The Effective Law = ((The text of the law) +/- (case law)) X (enforcement decisions)

I'm a firm believer in following the effective law, about pretty much everything. The mere text of the law, not so much.

You seem to be ranting about the mere text of the drone rules being overly restrictive, and I agree with you on some parts of that. You can get the text of laws changed, if you work the system correctly. I have.

But in reality, the FAA has evolved excellent, reasonable effective laws that actually govern drone operations.

So, what's your beef? Specifically?

MM

 

[Chaosrider]

I will concede that it seems reasonable and prudent to not fly over people. To fine someone thousands of dollars for doing so does NOT seem reasonable OR prudent.

But they don't actually do that, for minor, isolated violations.

I agree. I can get any shot of any parade or sporting event without having to fly over a single person. It's very easy to do. So why not do it??

Some people act without thinking. On the other hand, some people type without a filter...

Here ya go. A little less than a tenth.

You're not paying attention. This is an article from real estate agents whining about possible fines. It's says nothing about actual fines.

You need to pay attention to distinctions like this, or you'll lose whatever little credibility you might have left...

I would have to argue that with you. Comparing piloting full-scale aviation to UAS piloting is apples and oranges. I proclaim that one can be an expert at one and a complete novice at the other. Being a pilot certainly does imply that they know all the airspace rules, but it surely does not imply any level of UAS piloting skill.

Do you agree?

They don't completely overlap, but they are far from totally disjoint.

Just out of curiosity...do you have your TRUST certificate?



MM

 

[Crouching Leopard]

It sounds like you've described me to a "T" so I'll give you my 2 cents....

I highly respect relevant and intelligent comments etc but when they are down-right illegal and dangerous I'll call you out each and every time. I have more "meat in this game" than just a casual hobbyist who may or may not fly now and then. This is how I put food on my table and how I keep a roof over my family's head. I highly resent the attitude of "It's only a drone and as long as I'm not hurting someone it doesn't matter if I follow the rules & regulations." That's EXACTLY why we have so many rules and regulations now that this industry didn't have for several years.

It doesn't matter what your age or experience level is.. if your comment/attitude are illegal or dangerous I'll call you out right THEN and THERE and I'm not going to sugar coat it to keep from hurting your little feelings. It's really that plain and simple.

My comments weren't designed to describe anyone in particular, and I hope no individual on this forum has taken offence, as I didn't intend them to come across that way. They are a generalization as to why I don't join clubs or stay on other forums because of the elitist attitude of some members who's sole purpose seems to be not to inform, but to put people down when they ask simple questions or make simple statements about non regulatory points. I understand the reasons for the rules and fly within the rules, particularly since gaining my license.

What you say, I see it happening here in Australia at this very moment. The authorities don't want to impose more rules but are being pushed into it by people who just want to do their own thing. It is ruining things for everyone. I have seen stuff going on with hobbyist fliers in my own local area which I try and advise people about correcting. Most of the time they don't even read the CASA advisory notes that are in the box with the drone, so I give them a spare copy which I carry around with me. I also give this out when talking to non fliers about drones. I for one would be happy to see a requirement for some sort of licensing to be proven before being even allowed to purchase a drone above a given size or capability, and I get frustrated with having to explain to non fliers that there are actually drone laws in existence, as some think drone fliers live in some sort of "wild west" regulatory environment.

I am 100% behind you on your inputs, enjoy reading them and learn from them.

An example of the info I give out, from the know your drones website:

 

[Crow Horse]

Just my $.02 from a novice.......

Rules are in place for specific reasons. I might not agree with some of them but I do everything humanly possible to follow them. Without laws, we have chaos. This applies to all areas of life for me. Yes I'm THAT guy who drives 55 in a 55 mph zone and 30 in a 30 mph zone. Don't like getting stuck behind me? Leave earlier.

If one is so opposed to a particular law(s), instead of bitching and moaning about it, work towards changing them and do so in a positive manner. Anything less isn't productive and has no value.

If you break the laws, take ownership of it and learn from it. The fellow from Philly blew off the warnings from the FAA multiple times before he got hammered. He deserves it and shouldn't be surprised. He earned it. I'm curious about what he thought the FAA was going to do after his dismissal of their warnings. Did he expect flowers?

 

[Chaosrider]

No one thing. Society has lost its mind.

I'm with you on that one!

this FAA iron fist thing is just yet ANOTHER example.

This is where you're confusing theory (the mere text of the law) with reality (the way the law is actually enforced.)

The mere text of the law authorizes the FAA to act with an iron fist in this regard, but in reality, they don't.

The other day Patti, my girlfriend, walks into CVS for a bottle of wine. The liquor section is blocked off with a sign "Please see manager to purchase liquor." Vexed, Patti walked over to the line and wait for the privilege of gaining access to the wine section. In walks four youths dressed in black with black hoodies and masks. They walk straight back to the liquor section, steal thousands of dollars in liquor, and WALK out.

The problem here is obvious.

You're living in the wrong place. That wouldn't happen in Douglas County, NV.

In short, I'm fed up with the idiocy of the few controlling the lives of the man

That's unfortunate for you, because that's the way it's been since the dawn of human societies, and that's the way it will be until they end.

In my personal experience, if I don't poke the bear, the bear won't eat me.

Fly more, type less!



MM

 

[snowghost]

Early 70s a good friend of mine in his reckless youth thought it'd be fun to buzz our neighborhood (very populated San Fernando Valley of Los Angeles) at extremely low altitude in a Cessna 172 with 2 PAX. His tail number was turned in and he received a one year suspension of his license. No fine.

 

[Chaosrider]

Early 70s a good friend of mine in his reckless youth thought it'd be fun to buzz our neighborhood (very populated San Fernando Valley of Los Angeles) at extremely low altitude in a Cessna 172 with 2 PAX. His tail number was turned in and he received a one year suspension of his license. No fine.

A well deserved whack.

And if you're an active pilot, a fine would have to be pretty enormous before it would be worse than having your license suspended for a year.

MM

 

[Crouching Leopard]

Just my $.02 from a novice.......

Rules are in place for specific reasons. I might not agree with some of them but I do everything humanly possible to follow them. Without laws, we have chaos. This applies to all areas of life for me. Yes I'm THAT guy who drives 55 in a 55 mph zone and 30 in a 30 mph zone. Don't like getting stuck behind me? Leave earlier.

If one is so opposed to a particular law(s), instead of bitching and moaning about it, work towards changing them and do so in a positive manner. Anything less isn't productive and has no value.

If you break the laws, take ownership of it and learn from it. The fellow from Philly blew off the warnings from the FAA multiple times before he got hammered. He deserves it and shouldn't be surprised. He earned it. I'm curious about what he thought the FAA was going to do after his dismissal of their warnings. Did he expect flowers?

I am part of a group of people (a very large group I suspect) that Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) have included in a consultation process which is trying to formulate a sensible, yet sufficiently robust regulatory environment for all forms and levels of drone flying. Talking to the CASA people involved, Its very obvious that they don't want more rules, but changes in society, the industry at large and individual peoples actions are forcing them into it, so they are acting before there is a serious accident and / or big government reacts to public perception and forces them to bring in ill founded, quickly drawn up laws that will make our lives worse and kill things for everybody.

Here in Australia many (but not all) of the new and / or unlicensed hobby fliers I talk to do not realise that laws exist and that their flying "toy" can actually injure or even kill people. I recently witnessed a guy buy 3 Mavic Mini 2 combos as toys, 1 for each of his kids, after they had played with a friends Mini 2. They were 5. 7 and 9 years old!. A$3000+ in one shopping expedition. He was not a flier, and all the parks within a reasonable radius are popular spots used every day by dog walkers, soccer and Aussie rules football teams, skate boarders, joggers, you name it. For many people, money is not a barrier to anything. Look at the number of kids and teenagers on electric scooters and bikes driving around our footpaths (sidewalks) at crazy speeds, with no apparent need tor licence plates, training or speed limits. If they injure you and drive off, the law has virtually no way of catching them.

After I retired from the military I worked in high level engineering project management (for Lockheed Martin + foreign governments). With them, I often worked in places where a law didn't exist until a local official decide you were breaking it. I always slept well at night and retained my sanity. Looking for a quieter life, I retired from this and started a new career in a more peaceful and relaxed industry.

The public perception of "rights" and over inflated sense of expectations led to verbal abuse, physical abuse, insults, complaints, rants and ravings and the belief that, even though they were untrained, uneducated, unskilled and new to the experience, they knew everything, saw no need for doing things the correct way and that seasoned and trained experts new nothing. This eventually gave me severe PTSD which took me 3.5 years of treatment to get over. The job? I ran the areas No1 suburban garden centre for a major retail company!! Like this statement or not, but by far the worst age group for this ? The pensioners!!! (I am 67 by the way). Rarely were they happy and nothing was ever good enough. Younger team members would often be shocked at their treatment.

My motto now is" The more I see of people, the more I like my drone".

We now live in a world where even Pansies and a peaceful environment do not guarantee a quiet life.

 

[Crouching Leopard]

Okay...I'll bite. How many people have been killed or injured due to a failed drone propeller? Now ask that question of an aviation propellers. The FAA rules are logical for aviation. "People HAVE been killed due to misinstalled propellers, so let's make a rule to mitigate that risk." So in the case of propellers, the rules match the risk.

How about flying over people? How many people have been killed/injured by drones?? Now ask the same question of aviation. But wait?!?! What's this?!?! There exists a rule for drones flying over people, but NOT for full scale aviation?!? WTF??? On what planet does THAT make sense???



Touché. "Scheduled air carriers." See what you did there???

In the past 20 year, an average of ZERO deaths have been attributed to UAS and model aviation. Going back to 1960, STILL zero. Using just raw statistics, that makes drones nearly two orders of magnitude safer than full scale aviation.




Well...with all due respect, that's mighty magnanimous of them. Thank you, FAA, for ALLOWING a completely safe hobby to exist with "minimal restrictions." Again, there is zero data to support the "theory" that UAS are dangerous. 100% of the time rules and regulations follow injury and/or death. Except for drones. No death. Very little injury. Lots of rules.



And an $11,000 fine if you break one of those 8 rules. When was the last time you saw a full-scale aviation pilot get that kind of fine? The fine scale is off the rails.




Sure. But risk mitigation is normally penned from data. There is zero (or nearly zero) data to support ANY theory that "drones are dangerous." At this point in time, any arguments against drone safety are "what if" arguments.

Look...I totally support risk mitigation and exercise risk mitigation in every facet of my life. I purposely plan my UAS flights to not fly over people or traffic simply because I've been doing it that way for decades. Mostly because of the drone stigmas so people just don't like it (which is ironic when you consider that they think a helicopter flying 1,000' over their house is no problem).

Consider this; Have I ever flown a gasser helicopter of people or traffic? Absolutely not. Why??? Because the kinetic energy behind a model helicopter rotating wing is pretty apparent. The sheer size and weight of those beasts from the 80's and 90's along with the failure rate 100x that of today's UAS kept me and my helicopter exclusively on AMA fields. Conversely, the kinetic energy of these 1-3 lb. drones along with their reliability (100x of those old gasser helicopters) allows me to fly in the city and around people with a lot of confidence. And when I say "around people," I don't mean OVER them. But refer back to WHY I don't fly over them. It annoys them.

You could argue that there are 10,000 times as many drones as there were/are gasser helicopters. But even with these numbers injury and death statistics are miniscule. If anything, the lack of injury juxtaposed against the MILLIONS of drones sold throughout the world is a testimonial to their inherent safety. And, as you cited, a large portion of our community doesn't even know the rules. So we can NOT attribute this safety record to compliance. UAS safety is INHERENT to the hobby/profession. It's baked in.




Touché. Some people just love rules, regulations and compliance. The recent almost morbid compliance of all the Covid lockdowns (just celebrated the 2-year anniversary of "2 weeks to flatten the curve") are a real testimonial to that. Some people even sit at left turning arrows (when the non-turning light is green) @ 3:AM. I'll never be that guy. Yet, there they sit...3 o'clock in the morning...waiting through the entire cycle of the traffic light. For safety? No sir. That, my friend, is pure, unadulterated morbid compliance. To the critical thinker, this kind of morbid compliance defies logic. But I digress....




On this point I wholeheartedly agree. I have been saying this for YEARS. Imagine getting a CDL without ever having to sit behind the wheel of a commercial vehicle?

For sure I agree that UAS professionals should be held to a higher standard. As I eluded to earlier, I've held MYSELF to a higher standard long before the FAA jumped in. Without a practical test, any housewife can get a 107. It's all so ironic. Glad we found common ground.

D

My mate used to fly commercial quality drones over rock concerts for media and record companies. That was until, the audiences started throwing beer bottles and cans at them. He stopped. Not just because of the (slight) risk to the drone / the person below it, but the risk of half full cans and bottles hitting others in the audience. Stupidity and lack of concern for others is rampant.

 

[Crouching Leopard]

But they don't actually do that, for minor, isolated violations.

Some people act without thinking. On the other hand, some people type without a filter...

View attachment 146961

You're not paying attention. This is an article from real estate agents whining about possible fines. It's says nothing about actual fines.

You need to pay attention to distinctions like this, or you'll lose whatever little credibility you might have left...

They don't completely overlap, but they are far from totally disjoint.

Just out of curiosity...do you have your TRUST certificate?



MM

On my licence course, a commercial airliner pilot was stunned that he had to learn things that as a commercial pilot had never even heard of as its "all automated"

 

[MS Coast]

I am part of a group of people (a very large group I suspect) that Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) have included in a consultation process which is trying to formulate a sensible, yet sufficiently robust regulatory environment for all forms and levels of drone flying. Talking to the CASA people involved, Its very obvious that they don't want more rules, but changes in society, the industry at large and individual peoples actions are forcing them into it, so they are acting before there is a serious accident and / or big government reacts to public perception and forces them to bring in ill founded, quickly drawn up laws that will make our lives worse and kill things for everybody.

Here in Australia many (but not all) of the new and / or unlicensed hobby fliers I talk to do not realise that laws exist and that their flying "toy" can actually injure or even kill people. I recently witnessed a guy buy 3 Mavic Mini 2 combos as toys, 1 for each of his kids, after they had played with a friends Mini 2. They were 5. 7 and 9 years old!. A$3000+ in one shopping expedition. He was not a flier, and all the parks within a reasonable radius are popular spots used every day by dog walkers, soccer and Aussie rules football teams, skate boarders, joggers, you name it. For many people, money is not a barrier to anything. Look at the number of kids and teenagers on electric scooters and bikes driving around our footpaths (sidewalks) at crazy speeds, with no apparent need tor licence plates, training or speed limits. If they injure you and drive off, the law has virtually no way of catching them.

After I retired from the military I worked in high level engineering project management (for Lockheed Martin + foreign governments). With them, I often worked in places where a law didn't exist until a local official decide you were breaking it. I always slept well at night and retained my sanity. Looking for a quieter life, I retired from this and started a new career in a more peaceful and relaxed industry.

The public perception of "rights" and over inflated sense of expectations led to verbal abuse, physical abuse, insults, complaints, rants and ravings and the belief that, even though they were untrained, uneducated, unskilled and new to the experience, they knew everything, saw no need for doing things the correct way and that seasoned and trained experts new nothing. This eventually gave me severe PTSD which took me 3.5 years of treatment to get over. The job? I ran the areas No1 suburban garden centre for a major retail company!! Like this statement or not, but by far the worst age group for this ? The pensioners!!! (I am 67 by the way). Rarely were they happy and nothing was ever good enough. Younger team members would often be shocked at their treatment.

My motto now is" The more I see of people, the more I like my drone".

We now live in a world where even Pansies and a peaceful environment do not guarantee a quiet life.

"The public perception of "rights" and over inflated sense of expectations led to verbal abuse, physical abuse, insults, complaints, rants and ravings and the belief that, even though they were untrained, uneducated, unskilled and new to the experience, they knew everything, saw no need for doing things the correct way and that seasoned and trained experts new nothing."

Amen. It seems that number of those sorts of folks bought drones and comment enthusiastically on this forum.

 

[Crouching Leopard]

Indeed.

I learnt so much from my dad from a very young age and tried to do the same raising my kids.
What we all learnt, the joint experiences and memories - priceless!

Interaction with your kids. When I was very young, about 5yrs old, we lived in Nigeria. We used to fly between the UK, Algeria (my grandparents lived there) and Lagos. My dad always used to let me sit by the window as looking out seemed to help my airsickness. Aircraft in those days were turbo props based on WW2 designs and flew at about 10,000 feet and well within the turbulence zone.

On one trip, I remember looking out of the window and seeing an aircraft below us flying in the opposite direction. Always asking questions, I asked my dad how come the aircraft didn't hit us. His reply was that there was a man on the ground who could see where the aircraft were with "Radar". My next question was obviously "what's Radar". My dad was a dentist but had interests in a wide range of subjects and had sufficient knowledge to give a simple explanation about what Radar was.

From that moment on, I wanted to become that "Radar man". Within days of my 17 Birthday, I left home for good and went to Air force technical college, studied engineering and Radar and gained a degree in 2 years. I passed with such flying colours that at the age of 19 and a half, the Airforce (UK) put me in charge of my first, albeit small, Radar site.

I worked on Nav Radars and guided weapons systems, then went on to Radar R&D, advanced comms infrastructure and systems, project management and more. All because my dad answered a 5 year old's simple question.

Hes been gone many years now, but I owe my love of all things technical, my career, my meeting my lovely wife, my family and their childhood experiences with travel and living in foreign cultures, my own extensive travelling, my military comradeships, my pensions and my love of asking and answering questions down to the way in which a Dentist answered a 5 year old boys random question.

 

[Crouching Leopard]

"The public perception of "rights" and over inflated sense of expectations led to verbal abuse, physical abuse, insults, complaints, rants and ravings and the belief that, even though they were untrained, uneducated, unskilled and new to the experience, they knew everything, saw no need for doing things the correct way and that seasoned and trained experts new nothing."

Amen. It seems that number of those sorts of folks bought drones and comment enthusiastically on this forum.

Despite the often "turbulent weather" and more than occasional "lightening strikes" when flying through this forum, I stay because I have learnt so much from the seasoned fliers. As a result I have gone from novice to licensed and multiple type drone flier in a relatively short period of time, and fly my drone safely to the point where non fliers have come up to me and thanked me for my approach to safety in busy locations. To me, that's part of the enjoyment, a sense of professionalism.

My level of knowledge and experience will never match some of the forums members or staff, I acknowledge that, so I don't argue the point with them as I simply don't have the background knowledge or experience to match them. It astounds me why so many people in this world try to fight from undefendable and illogical positions.

Like I said in another post, the more I see of people, the more I like my drone.

 

[snowghost]

Despite the often "turbulent weather" and more than occasional "lightening strikes" when flying through this forum, I stay because I have learnt so much from the seasoned fliers. As a result I have gone from novice to licensed and multiple type drone flier in a relatively short period of time, and fly my drone safely to the point where non fliers have come up to me and thanked me for my approach to safety in busy locations. To me, that's part of the enjoyment, a sense of professionalism.

My level of knowledge and experience will never match some of the forums members or staff, I acknowledge that, so I don't argue the point with them as I simply don't have the background knowledge or experience to match them. It astounds me why so many people in this world try to fight from undefendable and illogical positions.

Like I said in another post, the more I see of people, the more I like my drone.

The more I love my Border Collie. Seriously, there are some great drone and FAA minds here.That's why as Phantom flyer I frequent all the related forums. To glean the knowledge of those who have gone before and who enjoy sharing the knowledge.

 

[Crouching Leopard]

The more I love my Border Collie. Seriously, there are some great drone and FAA minds here.That's why as Phantom flyer I frequent all the related forums. To glean the knowledge of those who have gone before and who enjoy sharing the knowledge.

Lovely photo

 

[Crow Horse]

The public perception of "rights" and over inflated sense of expectations led to verbal abuse, physical abuse, insults, complaints, rants and ravings and the belief that, even though they were untrained, uneducated, unskilled and new to the experience, they knew everything, saw no need for doing things the correct way and that seasoned and trained experts new nothing.

Nailed it. Spinning a bit away from topic but still relevant (in my eyes), is society's perception of rights v. obligations. Solely because one might have the legal authority or right to do something doesn't mean that one must do it. Our obligations to society far outweigh our perceived rights. That said, safety (or the perception of safety) is paramount.

My belief is the we should conduct ourselves as if we were ambassadors for sUAS's. Set high standards and a code of conduct, employ them and try to surpass them.