What benchmark defines an experienced pilot?

[Chaosrider]

I think you're mostly right. A computerized, GPS equipped drone with IMU can be super easy to hover, or to move from one spot to another.

Until it suddenly doesn't behave the way you expect.

The very same automation that makes it so easy to fly will hide things from the pilot. It's easy to miss the effect of the wind while the autopilot can compensate for it, but that fact may increase a pilot's surprise when the wind becomes too strong for the autopilot to hide its effect.

The "crash and flyaway assistance" forum has plenty of stories that say something like "My drone has always behaved perfectly, until yesterday, when I took off and it suddenly spiraled away from me at high speed!" When everything's working right, it's easy to fly without understanding the coordination between the magnetic compass, IMU, GPS, and autopilot. But if the IMU is initialized in a magnetic field that causes the compass to have a heading that's way off, things will quickly spiral out of control when flight starts, and many pilots won't have a clue.

Similarly, the first time a pilot experiences ATTI mode can be quite a surprise.

For these situations, it's not skill developed through many flight hours that will avoid disaster, because one can fly many, many hours without experiencing these problems. But safety from these sorts of issues is more a matter of education, most of which can happen when you're indoors without your drone.

Your comments prompted a new line of thought for me. This coming week I'm going to take the plunge into Manual mode for my FPV. I'd like to do some sim flight of that first, but Androids are second class citizens when it comes to the FPV sim.

Would flying a Mini-2 in ATTI mode be anything like flying an FPV in Manual mode?

Or is that an apples and lugnuts comparison?

Thx!

 

[Meta4]

Would flying a Mini-2 in ATTI mode be anything like flying an FPV in Manual mode?

No .. atti mode is just Normal Mode without the horizontal position holding that GPS gives the drone.
That means that it has no brakes and can drift in wind.
But Manual mode has no flight assistance functions such as automatic stabilization and can reach any attitude.

 

[Chaosrider]

No .. atti mode is just Normal Mode without the horizontal position holding that GPS gives the drone.
That means that it has no brakes and can drift in wind.
But Manual mode has no flight assistance functions such as automatic stabilization and can reach any attitude.

Not much use then.

I'll just shift my own internal flight mode back to "Timid" for a while, when I make my transition to Manual mode this week.

Thx,

TCS

 

[ryanenorth]

The use of a word like experienced can be pulled into a discussion on the use of the word expert. In most science and engineering disciplines the career progression is based on education, testing, and experience. For example in engineering you take the fundamentals of engineering (FE) exam your senior year of college. The FE exam is an overall review of your undergraduate education and the passing percentages are used to maintain a college or university's accreditation to offer an engineering degree. The test is a minimum competency test with a typical passing score of 70%. Then the engineer gets a job where they need four years of experience under direct supervision of a licensed professional engineer (PE). After the four years of experience they are eligible to take the practice of engineering exam (PE), which is a subject specific minimum competency exam with a passing score of around 70%. Both of these exams have overall passing percentages of around 60-70%, which means a lot of people with the education and experience still don't pass. After passing both exams one becomes a professional engineer, which is a license that can be revoked if you perform poorly. Having a PE does not make one an expert, it means that one is minimally competent to operate on their own. Typically competence is many of these disciplines is not exected until 5, 10, 15, or 20 years of experience after the PE license.

The problem with many disciplines is the Dunning-Kruger Effect (Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia), where people just starting out wildly overestimate their abilities. There is a reason that most disciplines require the combination of education, testing, and experience under direct supervision; early in your career you don't know what you don't know.

There is a joke I like that says all it takes to be an expert is to be 50 miles from home and to have a briefcase.

I don't think that I am an expert in sUAS piloting. I have been doing this for 10+ years, but probably 95% of my flights are ones I preprogram for data collection. Do all of the hours I have flown platforms count since I am not actively piloting the platform while it is flying? A significant number of sUAS pilot are much better than me at manual flight, but that is not my primary goal. My goal with manual flight is to be competent enough to deal with takeoffs, landings, and issues during a flight. My goal is not to be a pilot for a movie studio tracking race cars going around a track. A sUAS is just a platform for me to carry a sensor. My sensors include visible imagery, near infrared (NIR), infrared (IR), multispectral, hyperspectral, LiDAR, magnetometers, EM sensors, etc... The requiredments for an FAA Part 107 license are ridiculously easy compared to any other license or registration I have acquired.

These are just my thoughts on the question. I have no answer as to minimum hours required.

 

[dave canada]

if you don,t have several crashes you haven,t experienced alot of flying in adverse conditions if you can get them home in sudden squalls you might be experienced

 

[Chaosrider]

The problem with many disciplines is the Dunning-Kruger Effect (Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia), where people just starting out wildly overestimate their abilities. There is a reason that most disciplines require the combination of education, testing, and experience under direct supervision; early in your career you don't know what you don't know.

I tend to have the opposite response. In many areas, including droning, my confidence typically lags behind my competence. I have no problem with confidence in life in general, but when it comes to this kind of thing, I start very cautiously, and advance what I do slowly.

I guess I'm an alien...

I don't think that I am an expert in sUAS piloting. I have been doing this for 10+ years, but probably 95% of my flights are ones I preprogram for data collection. Do all of the hours I have flown platforms count since I am not actively piloting the platform while it is flying?

One of the biggest values of experience in regular airplane pilots...as defined simply by number of hours...is that you develop an innate sense of what's normal. The reason that's important, of course, is that just by flying a lot, you get better at recognizing when something isn't normal.

There's no substitute for that which can be obtained just by studying. You acquire that sense of what's not normal just by flying a lot, since flying a lot gives you a sense of what is normal.

 

[Camino Ken]

I am reminded of an old saying “experience is what you get when you didn’t get get what you wanted”. Following this wisdom would imply the more experienced pilot is one who has experienced the most non-optimum outcomes.

 

[B52-D]

I am reminded of an old saying “experience is what you get when you didn’t get get what you wanted”. Following this wisdom would imply the more experienced pilot is one who has experienced the most non-optimum outcomes.

When you stop learning, it may be time to pack it in. There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, not too many old bold pilots.

 

[ryanenorth]

I tend to have the opposite response. In many areas, including droning, my confidence typically lags behind my competence. I have no problem with confidence in life in general, but when it comes to this kind of thing, I start very cautiously, and advance what I do slowly.

I guess I'm an alien...

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One of the biggest values of experience in regular airplane pilots...as defined simply by number of hours...is that you develop an innate sense of what's normal. The reason that's important, of course, is that just by flying a lot, you get better at recognizing when something isn't normal.

There's no substitute for that which can be obtained just by studying. You acquire that sense of what's not normal just by flying a lot, since flying a lot gives you a sense of what is normal.

I think you are describing the imposter syndrome (Impostor syndrome - Wikipedia), that is the opposite of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. For smart people who have spent a lot of time learning and gaining experience, but then see people claiming much greater knowledge, skills, and abilities (KSA) causing them to doubt their own skills. A lot of this has to do with the fact that very few people talk about when everything went wrong or when they screwed up completely. Most people write papers, give presentations, or tell stories about their greatest successes (sometimes slightly embellished) which can cause imposter syndrome at the beginning of their careers who are smart and doing something really interesting because they don't realize that the only way to become and expert is to try solving problems and repeatedly failing but still keep going. The best type of training is that process that involves education and experience under the supervision of a mentor or supervisor who allows you to fail in controlled conditions where you can recover and no one will die. The best learning processes are in conditions that are highly controlled initially and then less controlled over time so that you can stretch your boundaries as your skills increase.

Piloting a sUAS doesn't have this requirement like piloting a manned platform. There is no requirement for a certain number of hours under a certified flight instructor prior to book based tests or practical tests. When I first started flying sUAS I did join the local RC club and spent some time with the old retired guys who had been flying RC planes since the Wright brothers.

 

[Chaosrider]

I am reminded of an old saying “experience is what you get when you didn’t get get what you wanted”. Following this wisdom would imply the more experienced pilot is one who has experienced the most non-optimum outcomes.

There's certainly some truth to that. Do you have 1000 hrs of experience? Or one hour's experience 1000 times?

Still, on average, it averages out!

 

[bmcelya]

How much flight time should a pilot have to be considered "experienced"

I’m not sure the term “experience” offers a true assessment. Hours as PIC is a metric, but not a picture of how well one flies. When I take a check ride for fixed wing I am judged not on experience but capability. True, a minimum number of hours are required to get licensed but that doesn’t confer a passing grade. When flying I prefer to be judged on “capability.”

I do wonder though, if the FAA will institute check flights for prospective 107 pilots. It would definitely increase the cost of certification, while insuring safer skies.

 

[MarkusAtHome]

In the 30+ years of working in civil and military aviation, as a regulator and in the industry, I came across many want-to-be experienced professionals. One thing I am sure of is that experience cannot be packed in to a number nor can experience be compared.

When I worked for a helicopter company back in the 90’s that mainly performed sling load operations (logging, construction etc.) we hired a pilot having 15’000fh mainly flying passengers and rarely a sling load. Of course, he turned out to be failure for our company. We then hired a pilot having 800fh mainly flying sling loads. Comparing an airline pilot that flies practically on autopilot only and a bush pilot in Papua New Guinea makes no sense either. I’d say skill and mindset go over experience. It is not only about flying. It is about the task of flying and tackling all related elements required for a successful mission. This at least requires “knowing” the aircraft and its maintenance, the “game rules” and your abilities, skills and privileges (license etc.).

If a pilot claims he gained experience by flying in adverse conditions and made it home alive then he does not show a shred of professionalism but shows that he is an idiot because he should have not been out there in the first place under such conditions.

Well for me, I have been flying methanol RC helicopters since the 80’s where we had no gyros and flying was 100% manual. Besides my drones, I still have one helicopter that I fly regularly in the full-manual mode. Am I experienced? No, I am skilled and this goes along with training and practice. When I perform a flight with a drone, I go through a defined routine to ensure that I can perform the mission successfully. I’d rather lose a “shot” than a drone or hit someone.

There are many professionals out there that know a lot about flying but little about aviation.

Nobody has to agree with me, it's just my opinion

 

[devellis]

People like knowing where they stand, how good they are at things. In some situations, like in school, we get grades or scores that allow us to compare ourselves to others. We can use that information to figure out where we stand. Because comparing ourselves to others is innate, there's a longing for some benchmarks that signal when we've "arrived" with respect to some skill, like drone flying.

For many activities and skills, there aren't any grades that allow us to make a direct comparison of our own status to that of other people. In these situations, we're strongly motivated to make what are called social comparisons. These are ways of making rough estimations of how we stack up to others in some particular domain. This is a whole sub-area of study within social psychology (building on the seminal work of Leon Festinger, who also developed the concept of cognitive dissonance). One robust finding in social comparison research is that people typically tend to structure those comparisons in ways that make them look good to themselves. One way of doing this is by seeing ourselves as similar to those who are better at whatever we're focusing on, and different from those who are worse. So, we might see a more experienced and competent drone pilot and notice ways in which he or she is similar to ourselves. At the same time, we'll notice the differences between ourselves and someone we consider as unskillful. We'll also overestimate how common it is for people to make errors or cut corners the way we do. A pilot who often flies without maintaining VLOS will likely overestimate how many other pilots do the same thing, for example (this is known as "false consensus").

It's just human nature to want to benchmark ourselves against others and the quest for an "experience number" is just another example. I'd sure like to have some indicator of when I've gotten to a certain level of competence as a drone pilot. In the meantime, I guess I'll just keep flying and give my skills a chance to improve.