Yes the FAA does contact you

[DanMan32]

RE: "VLOS grey area"

I think what was meant by that is determination of VLOS violation just by looking at a video. At a certain range, that really depends on pilot or spotter capabilities. However there are limits that can be determined by physics, both in curvature of the earth, and resolution of the human eye in comparison to altitude and size of AC.

If you're a mile away, you're assuredly BVLOS.

 

[DanMan32]

There's more to it than that. Check out FAR 107.31:

§107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.​

(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:​

(1) Know the unmanned aircraft's location;​

(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and​

(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.​

​

(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:​

(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or​

(2) A visual observer.​

You might be able to see your drone, but if it's just a speck in the distance and you can't tell what direction your drone is pointed by using only your naked eye, then you are in violation of 107.31(a)(2).

Actually you can tell heading, but you'd have to move around a bit.

Honestly though, even 20ft away I will likely misjudge altitude and position relative to an object. My depth perception isn't great. I was recording my church and trying to avoid a power wire between a power pole and parking lot light pole. I thought the AC was in front of the wire (wire between me and AC) but when I had the AC go up, I saw the wire in my FPV feed. I could just have been under the wire and would have ascended into it.
Exactly what I did at my house with my P3A years ago, day after I (officially) got it for Christmas.

Also even at reasonable VLOS range, you can't exactly tell what you're over.

Point being, VLOS isn't necessarily better/safer than FPV. You really need both, just as you need rear and side mirrors in a car while driving.

And what's wrong with decent 2-way coms? Even MAS use radio with ATC and sometimes each other, the ATC or other plane as the spotter.

 

[Rich QR]

... Someone actually ratted me out for flying over empty countryside. ...

The requirement for maintaining VLOS is not lessened because you were flying over empty countryside. In fact, over empty countryside, human-carrying airplanes may be legally flying below 400 ft, since they're only required to maintain a 500 ft distance from any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure (see FAR 91.119). If you're not maintaining VLOS, you wouldn't be able to see an airplane or helicopter approaching from outside your camera's field of view.

 

[Chip]

The FAA does not "watch you tube videos looking to hassle hobby drone flyers." They only do that if there is a complaint.

And RID does not have any forensic capabilities. That is one of the benefits of having the broadcast vs. wifi transmission style of RID. Once you turn off your motors, that entire flight is no longer available to see.

No one is going to get notices to appear anywhere. You need to be better educated on the realities of what RID is.

Thank you for suggesting I educate myself. I am looking ahead to the realities of forced public broadcast. Perhaps you should educate yourself as to how ADS-B signals are publicly tracked and why pilots are given ADS-B opt out options. As far the entire flight is no longer available once the motors are switched off, perhaps you should educate yourself as to electronic recording devices and the FAA's plans to study drone flights after the fact.

 

[hiflyer201]

better go hand in hand when you visit the "friendlys"...just sayin

 

[Vic Moss]

Thank you for suggesting I educate myself. I am looking ahead to the realities of forced public broadcast. Perhaps you should educate yourself as to how ADS-B signals are publicly tracked and why pilots are given ADS-B opt out options. As far the entire flight is no longer available once the motors are switched off, perhaps you should educate yourself as to electronic recording devices and the FAA's plans to study drone flights after the fact.

First, ADS-B is not to be used on drones, so that doesn't even apply. ADS-B is specifically prohibited as an RID device in the Final Rule for RID.

And seriously, you really do need to educate yourself about the realities of how RID will actually work. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying to so you don't look foolish making comments like that. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you understand so you don't worry so much.

The RID system or Module system will only broadcast from launch until motor shutoff after landing. And there is no forensic capabilities required in the RID systems itself. The only way there may be forensic capabilities is if someone has the storage capabilities in the app they use, or possibly if you're flying in a smart city that has the capabilities to capture and record the RID information package being broadcast.

And before you come back and try to argue more, you should know that I'm one of two drone pilots that are currently working with the FAA about educating folks about the new rules and RID. And I'm the one that is holding the FAASTeam informational seminars for getting all of this information out to FSDO and other FAASTeam leads.

I've had the Final Rules since before they were even released. I'm training the FAA trainers on this entire thing. And I've done numerous RID training sessions and webinars for the private sector too. Including with some well-known YouTubers.

Do your research. I'm trying to help you. And if I help you, then you'll be added to the list of the 10's of 1000's I've helped so far.

 

[Droning on and on...]

First, ADS-B is not to be used on drones, so that doesn't even apply. ADS-B is specifically prohibited as an RID device in the Final Rule for RID.

And seriously, you really do need to educate yourself about the realities of how RID will actually work. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying to so you don't look foolish making comments like that. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you understand so you don't worry so much.

The RID system or Module system will only broadcast from launch until motor shutoff after landing. And there is no forensic capabilities required in the RID systems itself. The only way there may be forensic capabilities is if someone has the storage capabilities in the app they use, or possibly if you're flying in a smart city that has the capabilities to capture and record the RID information package being broadcast.

And before you come back and try to argue more, you should know that I'm one of two drone pilots that are currently working with the FAA about educating folks about the new rules and RID. And I'm the one that is holding the FAASTeam informational seminars for getting all of this information out to FSDO and other FAASTeam leads.

I've had the Final Rules since before they were even released. I'm training the FAA trainers on this entire thing. And I've done numerous RID training sessions and webinars for the private sector too. Including with some well-known YouTubers.

Do your research. I'm trying to help you. And if I help you, then you'll be added to the list of the 10's of 1000's I've helped so far.

I think what he is saying is that someone will listen to and collect the RID broadcasts and plot them on a map the same way that they collect ADS-B signals and plot them on a map.

I haven't read up much on RID, but I can guarantee you that if it contains location information, someone will collect it and plot it, even if they have to setup multiple receivers to triangulate first.

I don't think you can really say with a straight face that this information will just vanish at motor shutdown.

 

[Chip]

First, ADS-B is not to be used on drones, so that doesn't even apply. ADS-B is specifically prohibited as an RID device in the Final Rule for RID.

Yes, that is certainly obvious. But, an ADS-B transmits a signal providing registration and flight data exactly like RID. Am I right? Have you researched how ADS-B flight data gets onto publicly accessible internet databases?

And seriously, you really do need to educate yourself about the realities of how RID will actually work. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm saying to so you don't look foolish making comments like that. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you understand so you don't worry so much.

Yes, I always make continuing effort to educate myself and I have no fear of you or anyone else calling me "foolish" on the internet.

The RID system or Module system will only broadcast from launch until motor shutoff after landing. And there is no forensic capabilities required in the RID systems itself. The only way there may be forensic capabilities is if someone has the storage capabilities in the app they use, or possibly if you're flying in a smart city that has the capabilities to capture and record the RID information package being broadcast.

What is a smart city and who picks and choses who lives in one? Does the FAA have a committee for that?

If someone has the storage capabilities in the app..... yes, I get it.

And before you come back and try to argue more, you should know that I'm one of two drone pilots that are currently working with the FAA about educating folks about the new rules and RID. And I'm the one that is holding the FAASTeam informational seminars for getting all of this information out to FSDO and other FAASTeam leads.

Yes, Vic, I am very familiar with your FAA committee appointment and I was one of the forum members who congratulated you on your thread announcing the matter.

I've had the Final Rules since before they were even released. I'm training the FAA trainers on this entire thing. And I've done numerous RID training sessions and webinars for the private sector too. Including with some well-known YouTubers.

Yes, I am very familiar with your achievements and I know of your interactions with famous Youtubers.

Do your research. I'm trying to help you. And if I help you, then you'll be added to the list of the 10's of 1000's I've helped so far.

Okay, thank you I will keep that in mind.

 

[Rich QR]

I haven't read up much on RID, but I can guarantee you that if it contains location information, someone will collect it and plot it, even if they have to setup multiple receivers to triangulate first.

I don't think you can really say with a straight face that this information will just vanish at motor shutdown.

The problem is that the RID transmissions are line of sight, with a power and frequecy like what is used for the link between the drone and remote control. They'll have a very similar range as our remote controls.

ADS-B is also line of sight, but at much higher power, and an aircraft at 35,000 feet has a line of sight that covers approximately a million times more land area than a drone at 350 feet.

Flightradar24 relies on a network of volunteers to host receivers in their homes. Aircraft at lower altitudes are concentrated near cities, which is precisely where volunteers are concentrated. It doesn't take many stations to cover the high altitude routes.

Perhaps someone will coordinate a network of RID receivers, but it would require a huge, dense network of receivers to catch all of the low altitude drones.

 

[Droning on and on...]

The problem is that the RID transmissions are line of sight, with a power and frequecy like what is used for the link between the drone and remote control. They'll have a very similar range as our remote controls.

ADS-B is also line of sight, but at much higher power, and an aircraft at 35,000 feet has a line of sight that covers approximately a million times more land area than a drone at 350 feet.

Flightradar24 relies on a network of volunteers to host receivers in their homes. Aircraft at lower altitudes are concentrated near cities, which is precisely where volunteers are concentrated. It doesn't take many stations to cover the high altitude routes.

Perhaps someone will coordinate a network of RID receivers, but it would require a huge, dense network of receivers to catch all of the low altitude drones.

Good points. I still think it will happen over time and grow the same way that sites like Flightradar24 or WeatherUnderground did.

There's a fairly large group of people out there that don't like drones. Combine them with the curious types like myself and the availability of cheap SDR equipment, and voila, a drone monitoring network is born.

Now that I think more about it, if someone else isn't doing it...

 

[Cymru]

Ultimately its lack of situation awareness.
Looking at a tiny screen of a fixed camera view you have none. You have no idea whats around you and even in front of you in any detail. You have no depth perception.
Thats why you need VLOS - to provide that all round situational awareness. and depth perception.

Until drones have automated detect and avoid combined with transponders themselves that isn't going to change as the safety case hasn't changed.

Look how manned aircraft operate in VFR. You're constantly looing around you in every direction up and down. You never stop doing so. Its constant.
In addition to that, you make a turn, climb, descent, ANYTHING you check again everything is OK before doing so.
This type of SA cant be gained from a tiny screen on a phone.

 

[Vic Moss]

The problem is that the RID transmissions are line of sight, with a power and frequecy like what is used for the link between the drone and remote control. They'll have a very similar range as our remote controls.

ADS-B is also line of sight, but at much higher power, and an aircraft at 35,000 feet has a line of sight that covers approximately a million times more land area than a drone at 350 feet.

Flightradar24 relies on a network of volunteers to host receivers in their homes. Aircraft at lower altitudes are concentrated near cities, which is precisely where volunteers are concentrated. It doesn't take many stations to cover the high altitude routes.

Perhaps someone will coordinate a network of RID receivers, but it would require a huge, dense network of receivers to catch all of the low altitude drones.

I've been privy to an RID app demo that does this very thing. But it relies on voluntary participation.

 

[Przemo-c]

Looking at a tiny screen of a fixed camera view you have none. You have no idea whats around you and even in front of you in any detail. You have no depth perception.
Thats why you need VLOS - to provide that all round situational awareness. and depth perception.

I'm sorry but you have still limited but some situational awareness. First of all the only cue that you loose is binocular disparity which is also pretty much useless couple meters away anyway and you rely on relative motion, size, haze etc. Those things are still available through that small screen. Also the camera isn't static. Drone can move and gimball can move so you can move your viewport without affecting direction of flight. Furthermore size of the display is perhaps small but angular size is pretty big given how close to you it is. In fact it would provide better awareness of what's in front of the drone than VLOS 40m away.

I will agree that there's severe limitation of awareness around the drone and you have to look around with the drone to mitigate that to a point.

So yes it is a partial loss of awareness. And yes it is mandated by law but for some things like obstacle avoidance along the flight path I'd take FPV over VLOS.

 

[Cymru]

Simply isn't true in the slightest.
You have no depth perception, no parallax, trying to pick up pixel size objects through compressed video to determine a hazard. It simply isn't the case.
You have zero awareness at all outside that fixed field of view of the drone.
Good luck picking up any semi fast moving object on a screen before it becomes a safety issue or has gone past.

If you're VLOS too far away to see any of the above, you're not operating within VLOS...

Its no surprise that authorities worldwide have standardised on this. Its probably the most important safety issue with all drone flying. Until active detect and avoid appears, its never going to be safe enough.

 

[Rich QR]

I'm sorry but you have still limited but some situational awareness. First of all the only cue that you loose is binocular disparity which is also pretty much useless couple meters away anyway and you rely on relative motion, size, haze etc. Those things are still available through that small screen. Also the camera isn't static. Drone can move and gimball can move so you can move your viewport without affecting direction of flight. Furthermore size of the display is perhaps small but angular size is pretty big given how close to you it is. In fact it would provide better awareness of what's in front of the drone than VLOS 40m away.

I will agree that there's severe limitation of awareness around the drone and you have to look around with the drone to mitigate that to a point.

So yes it is a partial loss of awareness. And yes it is mandated by law but for some things like obstacle avoidance along the flight path I'd take FPV over VLOS.

You may have reasonable ability to avoid obstacles, but the camera gives you very little ability to avoid other air traffic, particularly traffic coming from the sides, behind, or above. Even at top speed, a drone is flying much slower than most human-carrying aircraft, so you need to keep a watch for traffic coming from any direction. In sparsely populated areas of the US, VFR traffic may legally be at any altitude, and drone operators are always required to see and avoid it.

 

[Przemo-c]

Simply isn't true in the slightest.
You have no depth perception, no parallax, trying to pick up pixel size objects through compressed video to determine a hazard. It simply isn't the case.
You have zero awareness at all outside that fixed field of view of the drone.
Good luck picking up any semi fast moving object on a screen before it becomes a safety issue or has gone past.

If you're VLOS too far away to see any of the above, you're not operating within VLOS...

Its no surprise that authorities worldwide have standardised on this. Its probably the most important safety issue with all drone flying. Until active detect and avoid appears, its never going to be safe enough.

You still have parallax with motion. Depth cueas like scale of known object size and haze are still available. You loose binocular vision but that is of limited utility past few meters. The field of view of the drone is in fact narrow but it can be rotated just like your head.

I don't dispute you don't have awareness around the drone but you've stated that even in front.

For instance in VR with limited resolution even monoscopically you still get depth cues from parallax scale and haze.

Just like on a youtube video you still see what's closer what's further by seeing things in motion and parallax of closer by things moving faster experiencing less haze an being bigger. And closer by things cover further objects. you ónly loose binocular vision which has limited range anyway cues from accomodation (even more limited range) and resolution which at certain range even compressed 720p beats your vision of a small chunk of eye's FOV of a distant area even if you account for minimal bump in resolution form stereo overlap

And past a certain distance in VLOS you see worse what's in front of your drone than you can with FPV.

Awareness outside that certainly suffers as you would have to rotate gimball/drone that takes time and may not be quick enough to avoid danger. However when it comes to front direction you overexaggerated as some depth cues are still available.

 

[Przemo-c]

You may have reasonable ability to avoid obstacles, but the camera gives you very little ability to avoid other air traffic, particularly traffic coming from the sides, behind, or above. Even at top speed, a drone is flying much slower than most human-carrying aircraft, so you need to keep a watch for traffic coming from any direction. In sparsely populated areas of the US, VFR traffic may legally be at any altitude, and drone operators are always required to see and avoid it.

Yes and i wasn't disputing that. You'd have to constantly rotate the drone/gimball to be aware and time it takes to look around might be too long to avoid mid air collision. I'm not disputing that point. But i will disagree about what's in front of the drone. As view from FPV is greatly beneficial well within VLOS and for some things it's better than outside perspective.

 

[KenB714]

Regarding my contact by the FAA:
I had a 20 minute call with the FAA today, based in San Jose, CA - USA. The guy was fairly casual and friendly but the undertone of authority was definitely there. He said the YT video complaint was actually for flying into restricted airspace. He watched my vid and saw that wasn't the case but as he kept watching he determined I was beyond VLOS. If there's any doubt as to what that means its......VISUAL SIGHT OF YOUR DEVICE WITH THE NAKED EYE. He referred to 107.31 and I told him (truthfully) that I knew what 107 piloting was and had determined early that I wasn't going for that and had therefore not read the 107 regs prior to purchase. I complained that (in Aug. 2020) the recreational mention of the subject in the "Drone Zone" section was not very clear. He agreed. He said they are aware of the confusion and they're working on it. We kind of rambled around talking about different things. He said his Team had watched several of my vids and liked my style.....whatever that means. About all of them clearly show me BVLOS. He asked if I would do a video regarding this subject (unofficially). He never once said "this is a warning" or "you've been warned". Obviously its a warning but I have to say the guy was about as friendly as he could have been. I asked him if the FAA had assigned an actual distance to VLOS. His response was interesting...he told me he could see a drone from a mile when he was young but now....3/4 of a mile. He was talking about from a plane. I told him I can only see my drone from the ground to about 1,100 feet. I mentioned that I had clear view of the airspace where I fly out to about 3 miles and could see air traffic out there. No comment from him. He asked me if my device was registered....to which I replied "of course". Meaning, he hadn't looked me up I guess. Anyway.....he was feeling me out to see if I was going to argue. When I didn't, he was cool and just wanted to make sure I understood the reg and why it was in place. There was more so if you have specific questions I'll be online for a bit.

 

[BigAl07]

Thank you for the update. Sounds like it went very well for you.

Keep in mind, you've had your "Get out of jail free card" so be thankful and don't push your luck any further.

 

[KenB714]

Thank you for the update. Sounds like it went very well for you.

Keep in mind, you've had your "Get out of jail free card" so be thankful and don't push your luck any further.

Yes agree. I am not confused in the least about what just happened.?