Airport calls

[vtcats]

If you are outside the 5 miles then you don't have to do anything as long as their airspace doesn't extend to the surface. Those Class E to surface though you have to notify them.

Perfect! I'm starting to figure this stuff out finally. I spent most of my effort when I got the MP last May, on learning how to fly, fully understanding all the screen info and figuring out which firmware I wanted. Now more effort on the specific rules. Maybe backwards in priorities but I was always careful.
Thanks again.

 

[BigAl07]

If you are flying for hobby you don't need permission if the only limitation is that you are within 5 miles of an airport. You only need to inform the owner and/or tower. Safety issues still apply but you cannot be denied flight by the airport.

They CAN refuse your flight if it poses a legitimate threat to safety in the NAS. If they do this they should give you full reason as to why. If you chose to ignore this you can probably expect to get some company while you're flying if they do believe it's a threat to safety and not just them trying to be hard nosed.

Class BRAVO airspace requires permission before flying even for hobbyist.

 

[BigAl07]

If you are outside the 5 miles then you don't have to do anything as long as their airspace doesn't extend to the surface. Those Class E to surface though you have to notify them.

Please reference where they state hobbyist flying have to contact anyone outside 5 miles other than BRAVO airspace.

 

[tcope]

They CAN refuse your flight if it poses a legitimate threat to safety in the NAS. If they do this they should give you full reason as to why. If you chose to ignore this you can probably expect to get some company while you're flying if they do believe it's a threat to safety and not just them trying to be hard nosed.

Class BRAVO airspace requires permission before flying even for hobbyist.

They cannot deny flight. This is not allowed under Section 336 (or any other section) and the FAA has confirmed this in writing. No _permission_ is needed/required in any airspace (for hobby flight).

I'm not advocating ignoring the request of an airport and I agree that everyone should be safe.

 

[BigAl07]

They cannot deny flight. This is not allowed under Section 336 (or any other section) and the FAA has confirmed this in writing. No _permission_ is needed/required in any airspace (for hobby flight).

I'm not advocating ignoring the request of an airport and I agree that everyone should be safe.

The key point is "Permission" and they will not give permission. They will only "acknowledge" your notification or refuse the flight. I'm speaking from experience and was warned that if I do chose to fly in defiance I would be met by local authorities at my location. I opted to not fly as I have way too much to lose and don't need the negative publicity.

I discussed this in great detail with our UAV liaison and he also stated the above... They won't give permission but they are legally able to refuse the flight if it is a genuine threat to NAS safety and do have the power to pursue it to any level if it is a legit threat.

I called back a couple of days later (yes I was complaining) and it was explained to me that they had some repairs being done on the main runway and they were using a temporary/Alt runway and where I was wanting to fly was directly in their approach. I have since flown in that exact area multiple times with no objections what so ever.

 

[tcope]

The key point is "Permission" and they will not give permission. They will only "acknowledge" your notification or refuse the flight. I'm speaking from experience and was warned that if I do chose to fly in defiance I would be met by local authorities at my location. I opted to not fly as I have way too much to lose and don't need the negative publicity.

The key point is really that no permission is required. Because permission is not a requirement, flight cannot be denied.

Your situation is why I mention this. Some airport owners/towers may just not want people to fly so they tell them as much. Again, I'm not advocating ignoring these "request"... I think people just need to know what the laws require so that they can make a better informed decision.

I discussed this in great detail with our UAV liaison and he also stated the above... They won't give permission but they are legally able to refuse the flight if it is a genuine threat to NAS safety and do have the power to pursue it to any level if it is a legit threat.

Is your UAV liaison the FAA? If not, information from the FAA trumps his/her advise. The FAA has also put this information in writing. Airports/towers _cannot_ deny flight.

I called back a couple of days later (yes I was complaining) and it was explained to me that they had some repairs being done on the main runway and they were using a temporary/Alt runway and where I was wanting to fly was directly in their approach. I have since flown in that exact area multiple times with no objections what so ever.

They can ask or even strongly ask that you not fly,. They can also send people out to speak with you if they like. But they cannot deny you flight. I suspect local law enforcement could and would then need to refer the matter to the FAA for possible action.

A person could want to fly at 1000' a 1/4 mile away right in the flight path of air planes. I would hope that they tower would use the _strongest_ warning possible, ask the person not to fly and even send people out to the area. If the person is flying and it's unsafe, I'd ope that person was cited and the drone confiscated. However, I suspect some airport owners (helipads perhaps) might just tell people that they can't fly because they don't like drones. I think the dron operator should be educated as to what the law says in these situations. Also, I've had several people come up and tell me I can't fly within 5 miles of an aiport (property owners mostly). It's important to know what the law is.

 

[BigAl07]

Is your UAV liaison the FAA? If not, information from the FAA trumps his/her advise. The FAA has also put this information in writing. Airports/towers _cannot_ deny flight.

Yes sir he's very much with the FAA. He is one of the key parties involved in helping UAS integrate into the NAS for the FAA. I've left a message with him this morning to get some detailed clarification as opposed to "My buddy said" which is all I've really given thus far LOL.

 

[tcope]

Yes sir he's very much with the FAA. He is one of the key parties involved in helping UAS integrate into the NAS for the FAA. I've left a message with him this morning to get some detailed clarification as opposed to "My buddy said" which is all I've really given thus far LOL.

Here is the info from the FAA directly:

Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions

Can an airport operator object to model aircraft flights near an airport?
Yes, an airport operator can object to the proposed use of a model aircraft within five miles of an airport if the proposed activity would endanger the safety of the airspace. However, the airport operator cannot prohibit or prevent the model aircraft operator from operating within five miles of the airport. Unsafe flying in spite of the objection of an airport operator may be evidence that the operator was endangering the safety of the National Airspace System. Additionally, the UAS operator must comply with any applicable airspace requirements.

To some degree, we are discussing semantics. What is an "objection" and what is a "denial" to flight? "Don't fly in the area because....". Is that a denial or just an objection? Also (and this is something that I should have noted before), the info above does state that an objection due to safety can be enough to show the flier is automatically in breach of safety. So I don't see any difference in that situation between an object because of safety and a denial of flight. This would certain agree with what you were told and stated. I'd say that you would more correct as a general statement. What I'm talking about is probably too technical to tell most people and the general information is probably much safer for the masses.

 

[BigAl07]

Here is the info from the FAA directly:

Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions

Can an airport operator object to model aircraft flights near an airport?
Yes, an airport operator can object to the proposed use of a model aircraft within five miles of an airport if the proposed activity would endanger the safety of the airspace. However, the airport operator cannot prohibit or prevent the model aircraft operator from operating within five miles of the airport. Unsafe flying in spite of the objection of an airport operator may be evidence that the operator was endangering the safety of the National Airspace System. Additionally, the UAS operator must comply with any applicable airspace requirements.

To some degree, we are discussing semantics. What is an "objection" and what is a "denial" to flight? "Don't fly in the area because....". Is that a denial or just an objection? Also (and this is something that I should have noted before), the info above does state that an objection due to safety can be enough to show the flier is automatically in breach of safety. So I don't see any difference in that situation between an object because of safety and a denial of flight. This would certain agree with what you were told and stated. I'd say that you would more correct as a general statement. What I'm talking about is probably too technical to tell most people and the general information is probably much safer for the masses.

I think we are on the same page here. You're just a lot better at saying it technically and I'm more inclined to "dumb it down". Sometimes there is a night and day difference between the two but here I think we're both correct.

Thanks for your input. It's always nice to have a calm, intelligent, and factual debate rather than a "because I want to" kind of argument.

 

[tcope]

I think we are on the same page here. You're just a lot better at saying it technically and I'm more inclined to "dumb it down". Sometimes there is a night and day difference between the two but here I think we're both correct.

Thanks for your input. It's always nice to have a calm, intelligent, and factual debate rather than a "because I want to" kind of argument.

I'd not call it, "dumbed down"... I'd call it "more general". That is, your information would apply to 99% of fliers. I had forgotten about the verbiage stating that an objection because of safety could be taken to define the flight as unsafe. So I changed my view and I think your information is more correct (for that 99%). They can't deny flight but they can _define_ the flight as being unsafe... which is illegal. But also, they cannot simply tell someone that they don't want them to fly. I could see some airports abusing this just because they have nothing to lose by simply denying all UAV use in the area. For example, I could see hospitals doing this. I doubt that the pilot of a heli is going to pick up the phone and you'd probably get some admin person at the hospital that does not know the laws so they just tell the caller, no. No good reason. Just saying no because they don't know any better.

On that note... I've had nothing but good experiences with airports. One person even told me about the traffic pattern of balloons in the area. Very helpful and nice. However, I also tend not to call places like hospitals with heli pads when I'm something like 3-4 miles away. I legally am required to... but I don't (I fly out of VLOS as well... I'm crazy stupid like that).

Thanks for understanding that I was not being argumentative. I tend to be short when I write. Your post made me realize that safety info.

 

[FearlessRobb]

I think we are on the same page here. You're just a lot better at saying it technically and I'm more inclined to "dumb it down". Sometimes there is a night and day difference between the two but here I think we're both correct.

Thanks for your input. It's always nice to have a calm, intelligent, and factual debate rather than a "because I want to" kind of argument.

I strongly agree with there being a diffrence. My main concern is if im not even flying above tree level because im just learning how to fly my new mavic and im only 10 to 20ft in air and trees around me are 50 ft and the deniy/object and u still fly and they want to be a**holes about it they can still come afrer me to try to get me in trouble?

How would Ypu guys handle a private airport with no tower?

 

[FearlessRobb]

I apologize if i sound stupid or nieve or anything im just trying to soak up as much info i can before i obtain my drone and start going to maintain the safest and correct way to go about things

 

[tcope]

I strongly agree with there being a diffrence. My main concern is if im not even flying above tree level because im just learning how to fly my new mavic and im only 10 to 20ft in air and trees around me are 50 ft and the deniy/object and u still fly and they want to be a**holes about it they can still come afrer me to try to get me in trouble?

How would Ypu guys handle a private airport with no tower?

We can only hope that they don't mention a safety issue if/when they tell you that you should not fly. If they don't mention a safety issue then you can fly and someone would need to show that your flight was unsafe for some reason other than them just telling you this (not likely). Personally, if an airport were to tell me just that I can't fly, I'd ask why they are objecting. If they had a good reason, I'd certainly consider it. If they just tell me something like I can't do it... I'd determine for myself if my flight was safe.

If there is no tower you are require do call the airport owner (if there is a tower, you are required to call both). Usually this is just the airport itself.

Personally, if it's something like a hospital with a heli pad and I'm miles away, I don't call (I'd be in violation of the law). If it's a small airport, I call. If it's a small airport I usually am only able to leave a message but I tell them when, where and how high I'll be flying and leave my name and number.

 

[BigAl07]

I strongly agree with there being a diffrence. My main concern is if im not even flying above tree level because im just learning how to fly my new mavic and im only 10 to 20ft in air and trees around me are 50 ft and the deniy/object and u still fly and they want to be a**holes about it they can still come afrer me to try to get me in trouble?

While your "intention" is to not fly more than 50' or not above the trees what happens if you lose orientation, or you experience lose of signal and the Return To Home height is mistakenly set to 150'AGL? What about if you have a Home Point Error (yes rare but possible) and the aircraft suddenly heads to an unknown region without your control?

How would Ypu guys handle a private airport with no tower?

I handle it by calling them. If no answer I leave a message. If I talk with them I ask them how they would like me to handle in the future and ask if there is an email address I can email my notification to (gives me a paper trail just in case). Either way I document it in my flight logs just in case.

I had a tough time with our local MediVac (heliport only) here at the hospital. They are "coordinated" out of another area and not here at the hospital even though they fly in and out here almost hourly.. I would guess it took me no less than 12 phone calls and I finally got the right phone# via a Facebook friend. I called Flight Watch and arranged a sit down meeting with one of their coordinators. Together we came up with a system of notification that is a 2-way system. She got it approved and now we've been doing it this way for a couple of years (maybe more looking back). We call Flight Watch, give them our flight details (time, location, Max height, estimated flight area, time on scene etc) and they will then let me know if one of their aircraft is "Active" in my area. They take down my name and contact number and if they dispatch one of the aircraft to or over my area they call. At the end of the flight session I call them back and let them know I'm down on the ground.

This has worked splendidly since day one and they have indeed called me a few different times. One time she was actually landing at an accident scene just 1/8 mile from where we were shooting and we landed until she was airborne and back out of the area. Easy Peasy!

Also in an effort for complete transparency last weekend this "system" failed slightly. I made the usual phone call, prepped, inspected and launched my UAS. I was at 150' when my VO announced AIRCRAFT APPROACHING! Sure enough here comes one of the MediVac heli almost directly over head (maybe slight off to my 2 o'clock at 1,000'. No type of incident at all but to know they didn't call or worse yet LET ME KNOW WHILE I WAS ON THE PHONE was disappointing.

 

[FearlessRobb]

Thanks for the info. Seems to be a pain to fly in a city area were there is 8 to 9 hospitals and heli pads around

 

[FearlessRobb]

While your "intention" is to not fly more than 50' or not above the trees what happens if you lose orientation, or you experience lose of signal and the Return To Home height is mistakenly set to 150'AGL? What about if you have a Home Point Error (yes rare but possible) and the aircraft suddenly heads to an unknown region without your control?



I handle it by calling them. If no answer I leave a message. If I talk with them I ask them how they would like me to handle in the future and ask if there is an email address I can email my notification to (gives me a paper trail just in case). Either way I document it in my flight logs just in case.

I had a tough time with our local MediVac (heliport only) here at the hospital. They are "coordinated" out of another area and not here at the hospital even though they fly in and out here almost hourly.. I would guess it took me no less than 12 phone calls and I finally got the right phone# via a Facebook friend. I called Flight Watch and arranged a sit down meeting with one of their coordinators. Together we came up with a system of notification that is a 2-way system. She got it approved and now we've been doing it this way for a couple of years (maybe more looking back). We call Flight Watch, give them our flight details (time, location, Max height, estimated flight area, time on scene etc) and they will then let me know if one of their aircraft is "Active" in my area. They take down my name and contact number and if they dispatch one of the aircraft to or over my area they call. At the end of the flight session I call them back and let them know I'm down on the ground.

This has worked splendidly since day one and they have indeed called me a few different times. One time she was actually landing at an accident scene just 1/8 mile from where we were shooting and we landed until she was airborne and back out of the area. Easy Peasy!

Also in an effort for complete transparency last weekend this "system" failed slightly. I made the usual phone call, prepped, inspected and launched my UAS. I was at 150' when my VO announced AIRCRAFT APPROACHING! Sure enough here comes one of the MediVac heli almost directly over head (maybe slight off to my 2 o'clock at 1,000'. No type of incident at all but to know they didn't call or worse yet LET ME KNOW WHILE I WAS ON THE PHONE was disappointing.

I would so hope not to have loss of signal at 20 ft away from me lol. But i get what you mean. Always a possability

 

[FearlessRobb]

3 diff web sites 3 diffrent results
Whats that best one to use if anyone could let.me know

 

[FearlessRobb]

Heres the airport in my town. Must not get used much. So should be easy enough to talk to.

 

[FearlessRobb]