Another irresponsible UAS Pilot

[787steve]

Okay, I know everyone ASSumes that I haven't read the text or that I'm too stupid to understand it. What 336 outlines is the restriction or limits of the FAA's power to regulate the activities of hobby pilots. Savvy? It defines what a hobby pilot is, rather vaugely in my opinion, and promotes the referencing of community groups as the basic structure for safe operation. I get that.

What I'm saying and what I've said is that it's too vauge to be actionable in a court of law. I could start a "community based hobby pilots group" that advocates 1000' AGL as safe and that would be the "law" in my area. That would be like if there were no speed limits and the federal government said that car drivers should operate within the auspices of community based organizations like AAA or whatever. So the speed limit would be what AAA decided it is and you'd have to follow it regardless if you were a member it not? The AMA is a business, like NASCAR that puts on events and sells insurance/ membership. They are not the Lions club or whatever.

Yes I had a backup and I packed/inspected my own. I didn't need a community based organization or some clowns that have never touched a chute or dodged a bullet telling me how to do it. For me this is the equivalent of having the meerkats regulate the lions...

You did not say the law was too vague to be actionable in court. You said what I quoted. Let me quote it from, to you again "There can't be a "law" that states "you are required to follow some club's rules that you don't even belong to". " You also said "Oh and to address these "laws" you keep talking about. What is the punishment if I'm caught flying at 500 AGL? Who is enforcing these laws? Who's adjudicating them? Is it a federal crime to have two beers and fly your drone? How about three? Laws are clearly laid out with punishments." You clearly implied that it is not law. So, when spoon fed the facts, you claim to have said something totally different from your actual words. OK. So now, your point is that is too vague to be enforceable.
After another exhaustive couple of minutes on google, I found these links:

23 drone operators prosecuted by the FAA, 23 Drone Operator Prosecutions by the FAA – What Every Recreational and Commercial Drone Operator Needs to Know. -
23 Drone Operator Prosecutions by the FAA – What Every Recreational and Commercial Drone Operator Needs to Know. -

A writer made a FOI request for drone enforcement actions.....The FAA Gave Us a List of Every Drone Pilot Who Has Ever Been Fined:
The FAA Gave Us a List of Every Drone Pilot Who Has Ever Been Fined

And perhaps one of the saddest, Minnesota Man Faces $55K in Fines After Flying Drone
Minnesota Man Faces $55K in Fines After Flying Drone

From the fuzz:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/resources/law_enforcement/media/FAA_UAS-PO_LEA_Guidance.pdf

So your new position that the law is not enforceable seems to be debunked.

Its not a law. It's too vague to be enforceable. And you have many thumbs ups. Does it bother you in the least that you put out totally inaccurate statements, and others believe them to be true, then go out and act on that info?

By the way, your community group has to a "nationwide community-based organization". Go for it.
But until you get it up and running, you have to operate under another one. If you want to go by the law. BTW, I saw you criticizing their site as out of date, because, along with RC ops, they address control line ops. I am not a member of the AMA, but it is not hard for me to surmise that perhaps there are still people who fly those things. They have parts about jet ops, so maybe they aren't so out of date. Maybe they are just thorough.

Two last questions for you. You packed your main and your reserve carefully. How many jumps did you make, and did your carefully packed main never fail, not even once?

 

[Dw911]

I thought it a little strange, why the ama had stuff about control line models- i just guessd they were a quaint throw back to the 1950s 60s when rc was using valves and was only for the very rich, so lots of people used control line as it was cheaper - apparently though they are still very popular, and if you think the mavic is dangerous to bystanders, have a read of the wiki link, one of these control line models hitting you at 140 mph would certainly mess up your day.

Its amazing what you learn on this forum, before hand id have guessed control line models were something maybe a few old people occasionally flew as they had in their youth, for old times sake

Control line - Wikipedia

 

[Lon Denard]

I thought it a little strange, why the ama had stuff about control line models- i just guessd they were a quaint throw back to the 1950s 60s when rc was using valves and was only for the very rich, so lots of people used control line as it was cheaper - apparently though they are still very popular, and if you think the mavic is dangerous to bystanders, have a read of the wiki link, one of these control line models hitting you at 140 mph would certainly mess up your day.

Its amazing what you learn on this forum, before hand id have guessed control line models were something maybe a few old people occasionally flew as they had in their youth, for old times sake

Control line - Wikipedia

Yea I had a small one when I was a kid back in the 70s was my very first introduction to rc and I've never looked back.

 

[Lon Denard]

You did not say the law was too vague to be actionable in court. You said what I quoted. Let me quote it from, to you again "There can't be a "law" that states "you are required to follow some club's rules that you don't even belong to". " You also said "Oh and to address these "laws" you keep talking about. What is the punishment if I'm caught flying at 500 AGL? Who is enforcing these laws? Who's adjudicating them? Is it a federal crime to have two beers and fly your drone? How about three? Laws are clearly laid out with punishments." You clearly implied that it is not law. So, when spoon fed the facts, you claim to have said something totally different from your actual words. OK. So now, your point is that is too vague to be enforceable.
After another exhaustive couple of minutes on google, I found these links:

23 drone operators prosecuted by the FAA, 23 Drone Operator Prosecutions by the FAA – What Every Recreational and Commercial Drone Operator Needs to Know. -
23 Drone Operator Prosecutions by the FAA – What Every Recreational and Commercial Drone Operator Needs to Know. -

A writer made a FOI request for drone enforcement actions.....The FAA Gave Us a List of Every Drone Pilot Who Has Ever Been Fined:
The FAA Gave Us a List of Every Drone Pilot Who Has Ever Been Fined

And perhaps one of the saddest, Minnesota Man Faces $55K in Fines After Flying Drone
Minnesota Man Faces $55K in Fines After Flying Drone

From the fuzz:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/resources/law_enforcement/media/FAA_UAS-PO_LEA_Guidance.pdf

So your new position that the law is not enforceable seems to be debunked.

Its not a law. It's too vague to be enforceable. And you have many thumbs ups. Does it bother you in the least that you put out totally inaccurate statements, and others believe them to be true, then go out and act on that info?

By the way, your community group has to a "nationwide community-based organization". Go for it.
But until you get it up and running, you have to operate under another one. If you want to go by the law. BTW, I saw you criticizing their site as out of date, because, along with RC ops, they address control line ops. I am not a member of the AMA, but it is not hard for me to surmise that perhaps there are still people who fly those things. They have parts about jet ops, so maybe they aren't so out of date. Maybe they are just thorough.

Two last questions for you. You packed your main and your reserve carefully. How many jumps did you make, and did your carefully packed main never fail, not even once?

I'm not even going to read those because in 336 it clearly states that they have a right to prosecute anyone that endangers the public. I agree with that. There doesn't have to be an exact law prohibiting you from throwing cinder blocks at cars driving by for you to be arrested. Oh and 23 guys being prosecuted out of the 900,000 drones that your precious AMA estimates have been sold isn't exactly proof that there's a crack down happening, or that my premise has been "debunked". In fact, it's your contention that pilots are flying dangerously all the time but there's only been 23 prosecutions? Who's premise has been debunked exactly?

I keep forgetting you're a pilot and as such have to be **** about every little thing. I don't know if I've said exactly whatever in this exact thread. Like I said before, this battle has been fought already. In fact, it's been fought several times. It doesn't help that I've been flying consumer drones for a decade and am a member of at least 6 drone forums. Not to mention the number of times I've fought this battle on YouTube and elsewhere. I guess I apologise if I didn't say that, in this exact, thread...I honestly don't know because I'm not motivated enough to bother to look. I'll take your word for it. Who cares?

I don't feel bad because I believe I'm right. Do you feel bad for convincing guys to miss out on 80% of the Mavics capabilities? Do you ever feel stupid for flying your $1000 drone in a manner that a $200 drone would have sufficed? I personally don't care what you do with your drone and I don't feel obligated to demand others to operate theirs in any particular way. I'm personal responsibilities kind of guy. I've never felt the need to police what other people, that happened to buy the same toy I did, do with that toy. That goes for motorcycles, guns, orgies, swords, sports cars, internet p0rn, drones, throwing knives, whores, snakes, or any other activity or hobby I engage in.

As far as being "nationwide", you're the regulations master, does it stipulate how many members are necessary to qualify a club as a "Nationwide community based organization"? I've already stated that I fly mine mostly within the guidelines, not because feel that I have to but because I honestly don't have any need to fly any other way. Well with the exception of VLOS, I admit that I lose VLOS all the time. When I do break 400 AGL, it's because I needed to get higher to frame a shot. The Mavic far outperforms anything that I need from it in terms of speed, range, etc. My only gripe is camera quality.

 

[ac0j]

Prisons are full of ‘legal experts.’
Like any written or spoken rules or laws, it doesn’t really matter what our interpretation is. Do what you do at you own peril. Lessons aren’t without a cost, and Good lessons can be expensive.
I prefer to play it safe. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

 

[Lon Denard]

Prisons are full of ‘legal experts.’
Like any written or spoken rules or laws, it doesn’t really matter what our interpretation is. Do what you do at you own peril. Lessons aren’t without a cost, and Good lessons can be expensive.
I prefer to play it safe. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

No argument here on that. That's my take on it all as well. What you do isn't my concern. If I end up in prison for flying my drone 401' AGL that'll be my problem and not yours.

 

[787steve]

You didn't answer my question about did your primary never fail?

 

[787steve]

By the way along with all the other straw men you throw out, you keep acting like I don't think you should exceed 400'AGL. I never once said that. In fact I would challenge you, or anyone else to find a law restricting UAVs to 400'. That figure is used in the FAA guidelines, but I can't find it n the law.

 

[Lon Denard]

By the way along with all the other straw men you throw out, you keep acting like I don't think you should exceed 400'AGL. I never once said that. In fact I would challenge you, or anyone else to find a law restricting UAVs to 400'. That figure is used in the FAA guidelines, but I can't find it n the law.

Okay I'm out... If you're going to argue both sides... The stupid rules of the AMA restrict height to 400 AGL. You've contended that the AMA's guidelines are law based on 336 so....

 

[Lon Denard]

You didn't answer my question about did your primary never fail?

Nope, I've never had a primary failure but I did strike a wall and a house during exercises in Germany that resulted in a broken hip, ankle, ribs, and an extended hospital stay in Nuremberg.

Btw you don't respond to every challenge, so neither will I. Just so you know, I'm pretty weary of this line of debate. Once again, I've gone over my view point many times. No one will change my opinion until I see a speed limit type of law laid out.

All these personal jibes about my service or personal life really get old as well. These "you claim" or "didn't you" type questions don't do anything to convince me that you actually wish to have an intelligent debate. Besides, I'm not the right person for that anyway, just ask sar104. I'm not really into the deep digging, high research type of argument. I'm speaking for the average guy that went out and bought a toy for him and his kid to mess around with on the weekends. We aren't doing anything that crazy. We're flying with reasonable regard to the safety of others. We aren't trying to be professional drone pilots or pretending to be actual pilots.

Sometimes, I feel like I'm on the jet ski forum being lectured that I need to study the same regs as a captain of an oil tanker. Because there's a remote possibility that my Skidoo might sink a cruise ship and you never know when a nuclear submarine might surface in the lake behind your house.

I'm not putting up "straw men", heck I'm not even trying to win this argument, really. I'm going to fly my drone exactly like I always do regardless of what's said here by you or anyone else. All the personal attacks in the world isn't going to change that. Even your *gasp* 23 whole examples of people being fined by the FAA, won't deter me. I wonder how many professional pilots get hit with FAA fines every year! I bet it's a lot more than 23!!!

I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove exactly? This argument was fun for awhile but now it's just played out. Even the mods hardly care anymore.

 

[ac0j]

Nope, I've never had a primary failure but I did strike a wall and a house during exercises in Germany that resulted in a broken hip, ankle, ribs, and an extended hospital stay in Nuremberg.

Btw you don't respond to every challenge, so neither will I. Just so you know, I'm pretty weary of this line of debate. Once again, I've gone over my view point many times. No one will change my opinion until I see a speed limit type of law laid out.

All these personal jibes about my service or personal life really get old as well. These "you claim" or "didn't you" type questions don't do anything to convince me that you actually wish to have an intelligent debate. Besides, I'm not the right person for that anyway, just ask sar104. I'm not really into the deep digging, high research type of argument. I'm speaking for the average guy that went out and bought a toy for him and his kid to mess around with on the weekends. We aren't doing anything that crazy. We're flying with reasonable regard to the safety of others. We aren't trying to be professional drone pilots or pretending to be actual pilots.

Sometimes, I feel like I'm on the jet ski forum being lectured that I need to study the same regs as a captain of an oil tanker. Because there's a remote possibility that my Skidoo might sink a cruise ship and you never know when a nuclear submarine might surface in the lake behind your house.

I'm not putting up "straw men", heck I'm not even trying to win this argument, really. I'm going to fly my drone exactly like I always do regardless of what's said here by you or anyone else. All the personal attacks in the world isn't going to change that. Even your *gasp* 23 whole examples of people being fined by the FAA, won't deter me. I wonder how many professional pilots get hit with FAA fines every year! I bet it's a lot more than 23!!!

I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove exactly? This argument was fun for awhile but now it's just played out. Even the mods hardly care anymore.

*Golf clapping*
Well done sir!

 

[ProPilot]

I'm not even going to read those because in 336 it clearly states that they have a right to prosecute anyone that endangers the public. I agree with that. There doesn't have to be an exact law prohibiting you from throwing cinder blocks at cars driving by for you to be arrested. Oh and 23 guys being prosecuted out of the 900,000 drones that your precious AMA estimates have been sold isn't exactly proof that there's a crack down happening, or that my premise has been "debunked". In fact, it's your contention that pilots are flying dangerously all the time but there's only been 23 prosecutions? Who's premise has been debunked exactly?

I keep forgetting you're a pilot and as such have to be **** about every little thing. I don't know if I've said exactly whatever in this exact thread. Like I said before, this battle has been fought already. In fact, it's been fought several times. It doesn't help that I've been flying consumer drones for a decade and am a member of at least 6 drone forums. Not to mention the number of times I've fought this battle on YouTube and elsewhere. I guess I apologise if I didn't say that, in this exact, thread...I honestly don't know because I'm not motivated enough to bother to look. I'll take your word for it. Who cares?

I don't feel bad because I believe I'm right. Do you feel bad for convincing guys to miss out on 80% of the Mavics capabilities? Do you ever feel stupid for flying your $1000 drone in a manner that a $200 drone would have sufficed? I personally don't care what you do with your drone and I don't feel obligated to demand others to operate theirs in any particular way. I'm personal responsibilities kind of guy. I've never felt the need to police what other people, that happened to buy the same toy I did, do with that toy. That goes for motorcycles, guns, orgies, swords, sports cars, internet p0rn, drones, throwing knives, whores, snakes, or any other activity or hobby I engage in.

As far as being "nationwide", you're the regulations master, does it stipulate how many members are necessary to qualify a club as a "Nationwide community based organization"? I've already stated that I fly mine mostly within the guidelines, not because feel that I have to but because I honestly don't have any need to fly any other way. Well with the exception of VLOS, I admit that I lose VLOS all the time. When I do break 400 AGL, it's because I needed to get higher to frame a shot. The Mavic far outperforms anything that I need from it in terms of speed, range, etc. My only gripe is camera quality.

Actually, when you said it was too vague to be enforced, and he showed 23 enforcements, I'm pretty sure your argument is the debunked one. It doesn't help when you admit you aren't even going to read them. It sounds like you already have your opinion, don't want to be confused by the facts. I'm a pilot, too. I never had anyone take issue with us wanting to be right about things regarding flying. In fact, I think my passengers prefer it that way.

 

[ac0j]

There is a fine line between full size aircraft and half pound toys it seems.........
Thats why I give little stock in posts on a toy site that start with " I am a real pilot and blahhh blaahhh"
whats even more annoying is getting the background story of that pilots license for a paragraph or two before we get told we are using our toys wrong.
I have said it before, I'll say it again. Like it or not, you will not enforce you're perception of flying toy rules on anyone but yourself. Its his toy, his money, his choice.

 

[Lon Denard]

Actually, when you said it was too vague to be enforced, and he showed 23 enforcements, I'm pretty sure your argument is the debunked one. It doesn't help when you admit you aren't even going to read them. It sounds like you already have your opinion, don't want to be confused by the facts. I'm a pilot, too. I never had anyone take issue with us wanting to be right about things regarding flying. In fact, I think my passengers prefer it that way.

Nope... Like I said, there doesn't have to be a specific law against something for you to be fined by the government for public endangerment. I didn't read them because I'm sure these people weren't fined for flying at 402' AGL based on the AMA guidelines or 336. I'm sure it was for blatantly risking the public's safety or after an incident which caused injury or property damage. It wasn't some guy at the park flying at 405' AGL and an FAA agent popped out of the bushes and handed him a ticket. I don't need to read them to know that isn't the case.

If I chuck a butterknife into a crowd of people and someone loses an eye, I won't be charged with a violation of "The use and handling of culinary tools act of 1985 subsection 587 paragraph 18 butter, margarine and soft cheese spreading utensils and their safe and correct usage", I'll be charged with reckless endangerment causing injury.

I'm the last person that will argue against the premise that the govt can and will charge you with all manner of things whether they have a law on the books or not. Again, I deal with probability. 23 out of 900,000 drones make for some pretty good odds against.

 

[Lon Denard]

There is a fine line between full size aircraft and half pound toys it seems.........
Thats why I give little stock in posts on a toy site that start with " I am a real pilot and blahhh blaahhh"
whats even more annoying is getting the background story of that pilots license for a paragraph or two before we get told we are using our toys wrong.
I have said it before, I'll say it again. Like it or not, you will not enforce you're perception of flying toy rules on anyone but yourself. Its his toy, his money, his choice.

Exactly! You ever notice that it's almost always these pilots or ex pilots that are behind these things? Then there are these wanna be pilots that go out with check lists and do a ton of preflight research before every 15 minute flight. How would you like to be that guy's kid? A 20 minute equipment inspection before you ride your bike, a battery of tests before you get to swim in the pool, all your cartoons prescreened before you get to watch them.... Woo hoo what fun times.

 

[Dw911]

Reading some of these posts and many others scattered around on here and many of the stories in the media, many people would think that all the crashes in the past year were caused by drones

O wait a minute, there weren't any

2017 was the safest year for air travel ever


Whatever your point of veiw, no amount of talking on a forum or di*k waving is going to change what will or wont happen.

Fly safe, use common sense, encourage others to do the same, That's all any of us can do, the rest is just noise for noises sake and wont change anything

 

[ac0j]

Exactly! You ever notice that it's almost always these pilots or ex pilots that are behind these things? Then there are these wanna be pilots that go out with check lists and do a ton of preflight research before every 15 minute flight. How would you like to be that guy's kid? A 20 minute equipment inspection before you ride your bike, a battery of tests before you get to swim in the pool, all your cartoons prescreened before you get to watch them.... Woo hoo what fun times.

Maybe I am bitter. I wanted to be a pilot, but I couldnt pass the arrogance and pretentious part of the test.

 

[Lon Denard]

Maybe I am bitter. I wanted to be a pilot, but I couldnt pass the arrogance and pretentious part of the test.

Unfortunately, my p3n1s was too big and I lost my virginity before I was 25! Hahaha!

Seriously, I actually have a lot of respect for pilots. My dad was an Air Force mechanic, I was in airborne, and I do work at the local airport, so I've been around pilots for most of my life. The problem is, you can't apply the same rigorous regulations and restrictions to flying a toy as you do a 757 or fighter jet. I mean come on. When you become a pilot, you agree to certain rules, c regulations, etc just like when you buy a gun. This is not the case when you roll into Best Buy or Wal-Mart and buy a toy. It's ridiculous to expect anything even close to the same level of concern.

 

[Lon Denard]

Reading some of these posts and many others scattered around on here and many of the stories in the media, many people would think that all the crashes in the past year were caused by drones

O wait a minute, there weren't any

2017 was the safest year for air travel ever


Whatever your point of veiw, no amount of talking on a forum or di*k waving is going to change what will or wont happen.

Fly safe, use common sense, encourage others to do the same, That's all any of us can do, the rest is just noise for noises sake and wont change anything

Depends on the size of your...

Nah, you're right. These guys should just start their own forum. Real pilots flying drones or some such thing. They can compare pre flight check lists, maintenance schedules, the best weather forecast gear, etc.

 

[ProPilot]

Depends on the size of your...

Nah, you're right. These guys should just start their own forum. Real pilots flying drones or some such thing. They can compare pre flight check lists, maintenance schedules, the best weather forecast gear, etc.

Yeah, or "People who actually know something about flying, and the rules that apply to drones." As opposed to "Genius Adventurers who fly drones by their own rules, because, what are the odds" or some such thing.