I think you need to give it a rest. You're beginning to sound like a kid who constantly whines about wanting a new toy. Just go fly somewhere else.
Best and worst aspects of drone flying
- Thread starter Daniel Mclean
- Start date
We've already said it many times, drones should never be allowed to fly around near El Capitan. We're only asking to fly drones in the remote regions of the park probably 75 miles away from El Capitan.
No thanks, I will continue to speak up and fight for what I think is right. It's worked for me so far even though many people (including you) have told me to stand down, I'm sorry that's just not going to happen.
I think this a multi sided issue which brings into play traditional uses VS modern uses, competing voices with different size lobbies. the traditional ones usually have larger louder lobbies.
First point Yosemite did try to remove visitor cars from the valley a few years back, allowing only those staying in the park the ability to drive in. All others would be shuttled in on non polluting transportation. That failed due to the huge negative response from the public. The only part left is the reservation system in place for the summer.
As to my main point, auto touring, climbing, backpacking, camping, hiking, photography, horseback riding, etc are all traditional uses in the parks. Modern activities like filming, drones, mountain biking, e bikes. etc are newer uses, so are looked at differently, not saying better or worse just what they are seen like. You also have the feuds between use groups, like hikers and horseback users tolerate each other, but both are not on the best terms with mountain bikers. E-bikes are now having huge push back not just in the parks but everywhere. Drones are not far behind many people are paranoid of spying, do not like the the noise or fear crashing.
The basic problem for these modern use activities are the very small percentage that screw it up for every one else. So even though no of us would fly close to a climber there is that one jackass who will. like the fool in the Palisades fire that hit the airplane.
Just this week some jack *** ignored all the warning signs on Black Bear pass in Colorado tried to drive a Kia Telluride down the trail. He almost went over the side and died but manged to close the trail for a week in a very short season for the trail. He was too stupid to know the difference between all wheel drive and four wheel drive with a two speed transfer case. As well as the skill the warning signs said one needed.
A couple of years back some jerk with a truck drove on the Death Valley dry lake bed Race Track, leaving damages that will take hundreds of years for the lake bed to repair it self. Another one tried to drive across the big salt flats got his car stuck and then to add to the stupidity, got some friend in a truck to attempt to pull them out and also got stuck.
If all of these event continue to happen all the access to these places will be closed off.
I also realize that if one is on this forum the likelihood of any of us breaking whatever rules are in place is not going to happen. But the tiny percentage who ignore them are hard to police and stop.
First point Yosemite did try to remove visitor cars from the valley a few years back, allowing only those staying in the park the ability to drive in. All others would be shuttled in on non polluting transportation. That failed due to the huge negative response from the public. The only part left is the reservation system in place for the summer.
As to my main point, auto touring, climbing, backpacking, camping, hiking, photography, horseback riding, etc are all traditional uses in the parks. Modern activities like filming, drones, mountain biking, e bikes. etc are newer uses, so are looked at differently, not saying better or worse just what they are seen like. You also have the feuds between use groups, like hikers and horseback users tolerate each other, but both are not on the best terms with mountain bikers. E-bikes are now having huge push back not just in the parks but everywhere. Drones are not far behind many people are paranoid of spying, do not like the the noise or fear crashing.
The basic problem for these modern use activities are the very small percentage that screw it up for every one else. So even though no of us would fly close to a climber there is that one jackass who will. like the fool in the Palisades fire that hit the airplane.
Just this week some jack *** ignored all the warning signs on Black Bear pass in Colorado tried to drive a Kia Telluride down the trail. He almost went over the side and died but manged to close the trail for a week in a very short season for the trail. He was too stupid to know the difference between all wheel drive and four wheel drive with a two speed transfer case. As well as the skill the warning signs said one needed.
A couple of years back some jerk with a truck drove on the Death Valley dry lake bed Race Track, leaving damages that will take hundreds of years for the lake bed to repair it self. Another one tried to drive across the big salt flats got his car stuck and then to add to the stupidity, got some friend in a truck to attempt to pull them out and also got stuck.
If all of these event continue to happen all the access to these places will be closed off.
I also realize that if one is on this forum the likelihood of any of us breaking whatever rules are in place is not going to happen. But the tiny percentage who ignore them are hard to police and stop.
Agreed with most of these points and my only response is the nuclear option shouldn't be the first choice unless it's the only choice. As far as I know, nothing else was considered to mitigate any future drone issues. One Kia goes off the trail and all NPs in the country are banned from off-road....basically forever?
Those are good points about emerging technologies but all I see are reasonable restrictions being considered as solutions and put into place, not blanket bans. If tier 1 and tier 2 parks were closed to drones year round and tier 3 only open in the off-season and tier 4 had massive restrictions, this at least gives the honest visitor a chance to enjoy their land (again, a hurdle we shouldn't have to justify). Personally I think drones are prohibited because NPS believe they can get away with it. Half (or more of the community) don't care or are against it so they feel they have the moral high ground. Same way they feel they have the moral high ground on Chinese DJI drone ban but for some reason it's ok to protest against that? I have been told more than once you have no right to fly your shiny toys....blah blah blah.
Imagine if e-bikes were prohibited in all NPs. This on top of state and city park bans forcing you to ride on the streets and sidewalks. Despite rules and restriction, the bad guy will always do bad things and stopping the honest citizens from exercising responsibly will do little to mitigate that risk. This is what I would like to see for drones, something similar to the way they treat the nuisance called paragliding:
I've hiked the east side of Black Bear Pass, climbed adjacent Trico Peak (elev. 13,329) and, on the other side of US 550, climbed Ohio Peak (elev. 12,673). I've also hiked to Bullion King Lake in that area. Black Bear Pass isn't in a national park or anywhere near one, so someone driving a Kia off the trail and getting stuck would have no effect on decisions that any park manager would make about anything. In fact, as far as I know, motor vehicles aren't permitted off-road or off-trail (Canyonlands NP is an exception, and there may be a few others) in any national park or monument or any of the other formal designations for parklands. Well, maybe at the White House (yes, it's an NPS property), where Marine One is allowed to land on the lawn.
As a general rule, no matter where they occur, isolated incidents involving stupid behavior of hikers, climbers, motorists, campers, boaters, snowmobile operators, cyclists, horsemen, Nordic skiers, sunbathers, and folks who attempt to feed or taunt wildlife, etc., do not elicit kneejerk reactions from park managers. At one time or another, they've seen it all.
Would it make you happier to know that NPS regulations apply to all aircraft and not just drones? I mean, doesn't the FAA consider drones to be aircraft? Don't we like to think we're pilots, and that we're operating aircraft?
I agree
The black Bear pass point was not about NPs but how given the chance there are those that do not follow the rules and cause havoc. I have seen off-road trail access closed due to poor behavior by some on public land. An example in a NP is Titus canyon, 2 years ago a flash flood ripped out the one way off-road trail for all vehicles from the top. There was limited access from the bottom up to a point for hikes and bike riders. Two bike riders decided to go down from the top and were hurt pretty bad and had to be rescued by park rangers. Now only hiking is allowed until the trail is rebuilt.
I do not need to drive where there is no trail already and I do not need fly in NPs or Wilderness areas. I have more issue with the restrictions on other public lands but at the same time I cannot begin to tell you how much trash i have picked up over the years in remote areas.
It is all in how one describes off-road, some parks have unpaved roads but others like Death Valley have off-road jeep type trails, it is trailblazing that is not allowed.
The black Bear pass point was not about NPs but how given the chance there are those that do not follow the rules and cause havoc. I have seen off-road trail access closed due to poor behavior by some on public land. An example in a NP is Titus canyon, 2 years ago a flash flood ripped out the one way off-road trail for all vehicles from the top. There was limited access from the bottom up to a point for hikes and bike riders. Two bike riders decided to go down from the top and were hurt pretty bad and had to be rescued by park rangers. Now only hiking is allowed until the trail is rebuilt.
I do not need to drive where there is no trail already and I do not need fly in NPs or Wilderness areas. I have more issue with the restrictions on other public lands but at the same time I cannot begin to tell you how much trash i have picked up over the years in remote areas.
In the end drones are usually only liked by those that fly them
I dunno, I used to see tour helicopters flying all over the Grand Canyon all the time; have they stopped that?
Sorry I have to advocate for drone use wherever it makes sense. I'm not necessarily looking to allow people to get fantastic shots or scenic photos but simply having a decent place to fly. If all state parks were open to drones by default with minor restrictions, we would be satisfied. But it's not and I have to advocate for national parks the same way I do for state parks, county parks, and city parks that implement strict bans for absolutely no reason other than "just because."
If we allow this mentality, we stand only to lose more and never gain and once again, drones will be flown in neighborhoods and city streets when they don't have to be. Maybe it's time we establish standalone "Drone parks" similar to "RC parks" not FRIAs. Let's call it that if it makes people feel better. People need somewhere other than private property to go fly their drone because I can understand the apprehension some flyers may feel flying over private property especially as it is becoming illegal in so many places.
I once heard lights and sirens coming in my direction and I thought nothing of it, I'm in a public park and I have been flying there for years but I see this patrol car approaching and once he sees me (and likely recognize me and what I am doing), he stands down and turns around...for sure. Been meaning to do a public records request to find out what that was all about.
If there are still folks selling sight-seeing helicopter rides to tourists, they'd base their operations in Tusayan, south of the park, and fly over the park in Class E airspace like other light aircraft.
The state park I do not get is Anza Borrego State Park, I have seen a lot of drone content from that park and knowing how big it is they did not fly in from out of the park. So I guess they are just ignore the ban and nobody is looking for them after they post. I understand not letting drones fly up in Coyote Canyon because of the Big Horn breeding area but the whole huge east and south part should be open to flying a drone responsibly
AeroJ
Well-Known Member
NO ! This is EXACTLY what we must fight against - being relegated to only being allowed in featureless fields where the only thing to film is grass, and absolutely nothing of interest to anybody ! This is exactly why we all care so much about the National Parks thing - they have the very best scenery, WE are the obviously the people best in a position to film it and share it freely with the rest of the world.
No, take away my beautiful countryside viewpoints and buildings of historical interest and there is nothing left for me to do with drones. I would be bored stiff of whazzing round a featureless field in about 5 seconds.
That is a photo of an AgCat agricultural aircraft. I don't want to make assumptions, so I'll point out that the person flying it is most likely a commercially rated pilot and is in the performance of such operations that ARE allowed by the FAA, whether it be application of materials to crops or landing/departing from a runway.
Not saying he is or not, just want you to be aware before calling it in.
Edit to add; if your relationship with relatives is damaged by your offense to their opinion of your hobby, there are much deeper issues at hand and this is just a convenient excuse. You'll probably take offense to my comment as well, but it's ok...it's just my opinion and I don't falter if someone disagrees. Best wishes to you.
Last edited:
National parks don't have a monopoly on scenic beauty, at least not here in the US, and not all of us obsess about what you call the national parks thing. I find many spectacular places with varied terrains over which to fly near my home, some near parks and some not, but then I live in a beautiful part of the world -- mountains to the east, desert to the west, canyon country to the south, and a rather tame (not like the Grand Canyon) stretch if the Colorado River less than a half-mile from my doorstep. Alas, this part of the world hasn't been settled that long, so there's no noble architecture in the immediate vicinity.
Just recently, I shared photos in the Photos and Videos forum of the Dotsero Crater, Colorado's youngest volcanic feature. It's located on the public domain administered by the Bureau of Land Management about 110 miles east of my home. I've been driving by it for years enroute back and forth on I-70 between my home and Denver and finally decided to take a closer look. It's only a mile or so from the highway. Getting up to the rim on a steep and primitive path, however, proved too much of a challenge for my RAV4 hybrid with AWD, low ground clearance, and street tires, so I returned later with a couple of geologist friends, one of whom has a proper 4WD outfit with appropriate tires.
I've inserted a shot of some canyon country (BLM) a mile southwest of my home. Sorry, not the best lighting on an overcast winter day.
I've never been to the UK, but I've seen enough footage to know that there are some marvelous agricultural and other vistas. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you can't find it, then maybe you aren't looking carefully enough, or perhaps your familiarity with it has bred contempt.
AeroJ
Well-Known Member
You are very lucky to live where you do and to have such beautiful places to fly.
And that's partially because you have so much space over there. In the UK everything is packed in very tightly, and pretty much anywhere you go to find these wide open vistas there is National Trust sign meters away with a no drones sign on it ! Don't get me wrong; I am lucky that all 7 of my regular fly sites DO have interesting things to see on the ground and none are on NT land. I am luckier still that I live in a narrow corridor where there are hardly any FRZ's or NOTAMs and only a few local airfields to avoid.
It's just that the MOST spectacular viewpoints, which I am most interested in filming are within those proscribed boundaries.
Of the freely accessible places around me, there ARE spectacular views to be found and I DO appreciate them, though I also accept what you suggest about familiarity breeding contempt - I do get a bit sick of endless farmers fields, no matter how much of an attractive patchwork they make when viewed from on high... I realise it can't all be poppy fields and those Dutch tulip fields of rainbow colours, but I find myself constantly trying to do better than 3 shades of green !
Yes it is an ag plane/pilot..
The problem is when that pilot is doing those low fly-overs and buzzing my house/property, I believe it to be a flight that is recreational in nature and they are using their status as an ag-pilot to get around flight rules. There are no airports or landing strips near me that are available so it's not taking off or landing.
I've talked to the farmer who farms the largest acreage near me and he doesn't utilize that service. All his summer and winter crop seed is spread by tractor.
Furthermore, I've traced their flightpath on foot, using my drone, and using google earth and there are no farmed fields in either direction of their flight path.
I was able to actually get the name of the pilot so I reached out to this person in a polite and respectful way and told them about the group of us that fly drones in my area, and that they have caused us to make emergency landings when we became aware of their presence, and that a collision with one of these will make a real bad day/life for everyone involved we would appreciate it that if they are working if we could get a schedule of when they will be in the area so we know when not to fly.
Naturally they did not respond which reinforces the idea that they were not working and were flying recreationally. I would think if it was for legitimate business purposes they would know their schedule in advance and be able to make that kind of notification.
Other people in the area have commented on these fly-overs and made similar comments about there not being any reason for them to be flying in their area like that ( i.e. no farmed fields, all woodlands, etc. ).
Theres another single engine small plane that is a non-ag plane that flies in a similar manner around here and I am thinking it may be the same pilot.
Last edited:
Now might be a good time to visit the NPS, apparently you can drive right in as they are still open but unmanned. The rules are still the same but many parks have furloughed federal employees.
Yes, the rules are the same and they're being enforced. Some folks, thinking that the henhouse isn't guarded, might be tempted to ignore the rules, but the NPS's law enforcement rangers haven't been furloughed. They're on the job, obliged to work without pay, and they probably aren't very happy about it. I drove through Colorado National Monument this morning enroute to some spectacular uplands (BLM) beyond the monument and flew my drone there.
AeroJ
Well-Known Member
Yeah, only thing worse than a working ranger is a pissed off unpaid working ranger !
Unless you can throw some cash at him to get him to look in another direction...
Unless you can throw some cash at him to get him to look in another direction...
