CAA:whats the point then,where do you stand in your situation

[Howdeedoodee]

Hi Folks

I posted this odd one to help out others in same situation

I'm a builder and was looking at getting my CAA license to use my mavic inspecting roofs and buildings that i may or may not get the work to rectify if any faults were found.
I've been flying everything for 30 years RC wise (BMFA member), big gas planes/jets/ 200mph+ F5D and have a monster drag racing glider with a hand made 400amp esc and 400amp geared motor,..so as you can see i fly at the edge of RC performance, I've also been building and flying RC helicopters for 20 years.
Back when quadcopters were unheard about 15 years or more ago i hand built my first quad out of aluminium tubes with the only flight controller available worldwide.
I've also had 40 hour lessons on a full size helicopter (Huges schweiser 300 piston engine heli)
I currently fly a paramotor and wing which there is no licence requirement as its foot launched aircraft.
So as you can see i have a fair amount of flying experience.
Anyway I looked on the CAA website to see whats involved and found this information as below.

From CAA website
National Qualified Entities (NQEs) are established to assess the competence of people operating small unmanned aircraft as part of the CAA's process in granting operating permissions.

Assessment by an NQE is necessary for those with no previous aviation training or qualifications. To achieve this, NQEs may offer a short educational course/programme prior to the competency assessment aimed at bringing an individual's knowledge up to the required level (but please note that these are not CAA approved training courses).

A typical NQE full-course involves:

• pre-entry/online study
• 1-3 days of classroom lessons and exercises
• a written theory test
• a flight assessment

After successfully completing the theory element, applicants will:

• develop his/her own operations manual
• practice aircraft operation/flying skills for the practical flight assessment.

Flight assessments are normally arranged and completed at your own pace:

• they are usually arranged separately but may be available on the last day of the course
• they have no structured syllabus or sequence of numbered exercises, but the test will be based on testing the procedures that have been described within the applicant's operations manual

Details of CAA approved assessment organisations (NQEs) are shown below.
End of quote from CAA

So on one hand they say to take an assessment/license?but on the other they say they don't approve these coarse's so whats the point if they say you have to do this to fly drones commercially but they are not approved coarse's by the CAA.....i'm confused.....so i called up what looked like the biggest drone coarse company in the UK i could find online to clarify.
Note: it said on their website CAA approved coarses!
After 30 minutes on the phone and him looking at the same thing i was on the CAA he seemed bemused and couldn't give me an answer.
He said because i had loads of flying experience but no actual flying license of any type i could just take a short assessment costing approx £150 then i would be licensed.
i said what does this entail? he said checking your aircraft prior to flight and flying around figure of eight cones etc??? My 7 year old lad can do this?
To be double sure i phoned someone technical on this at the BMFA (British model flying association)
The chap at the BMFA said that it was a bit misleading by the CAA regarding the quote on the website but suggested the following in my case as follows.
He said because i don't charge for the actual survey and only get paid for the building works if the client has the work done he said i'm only collecting data (video photo's) to give the client an informed decision...a bit like getting a free estimate from a builder.
He said this is such a grey area and they have spoken to the CAA about it but nothing to report further.
So to cover this they have brought out this to cover this grey area, link here Data, Development & Demonstration Insurance
So the outcome to this story is i thought i would be looking at a £1000 coarse including the insurance plus 3-4 days off work, I'm self employed so another £1000 so total of £2000 all told, but now I'm looking at only paying the BMFA just £75, This will cover my *** in case some twit phones the police while I'm surveying a roof.
I can keep a laminated copy of the Data,Development and Demonstration document on me and my £75 policy cover note, I can then show to the police in such a situation as i doubt they would know the law on this and feel safe from being arrested or my Mavic being confiscated.
I Posted this to maybe help others in this same situation.

John the builder

 

[Brrale1990]

Not much to add bit have you done any research into the current CAA rules on consumer drones(<20kg) namely that you must stay 150M away from "crowds and built up areas" when they also state that max alt is 120M. This obviously wouldn't apply to all jobs but it could be a problem in suburban residential areas like where I live.

Hopefully for you getting this CAA but not CAA NQE qualification would allow you a common sense freedom from this requirement, subject to proper insurance ect.. It seems silly that the alternative could be making you risk life and limb by having to use ladders and work at heights. I thought Theresa May liked going on about making the UK a global tech capital post EU, their rhetoric regarding drone legislation doesn't seem to promote innovation in its current form haha

 

[Howdeedoodee]

its all a bit loose but don't fly like a twat basically.
Taken from CAA.

• The regulations for recreational drone flights are contained within the Air Navigation Order 2016 (ANO) which is the primary document for all aviation regulations within the UK. In order to keep the regulations at a proportionate level for these small drones, a set of specific, simpler, regulations apply to aircraft that have a mass of 20kg or less (which are termed ‘small unmanned aircraft’ within the ANO).
  
  In simple terms, these regulations state that:
  
  • you are responsible for flying your drone in a safe manner
    
  • you must keep the drone in your direct sight at all times while it is flying, so that you can ensure that it does not collide with anything, especially other aircraft
    
  • you must not endanger anyone, or any thing with your drone, including any articles that you drop from it
    
  • if your drone weighs more than 7kg, additional rules apply if you fly in certain types of airspace and you must not fly above 400ft above the surface
  • If your drone is fitted with a camera, there are also a number of additional limitations surrounding where you can fly it, and how close you can fly it to other uninvolved people or objects. In order to be able to fly within these areas, or closer than the minimum distances that are in the regulations, you must obtain prior Permission from the CAA to do so.
  How to apply for a Permission.
  
  The full regulations are shown below.
  
  
• Article 241 - endangering safety of any person or property
  A person must not recklessly or negligently cause or permit an aircraft to endanger
  any person or property
  
  Article 94 - small unmanned aircraft
  (1) A person must not cause or permit any article or animal (whether or not
  attached to a parachute) to be dropped from a small unmanned aircraft so as to
  endanger persons or property.
  
  (2) The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft may only fly the aircraft if
  reasonably satisfied that the flight can safely be made.
  
  (3) The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft must maintain direct,
  unaided visual contact with the aircraft sufficient to monitor its flight path in
  relation to other aircraft, persons, vehicles, vessels and structures for the
  purpose of avoiding collisions.
  
  (4) The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft which has a mass of more
  than 7kg excluding its fuel but including any articles or equipment installed in or
  attached to the aircraft at the commencement of its flight, must not fly the
  aircraft:
  
  (a) in Class A, C, D or E airspace unless the permission of the appropriate air
  traffic control unit has been obtained;
  
  (b) within an aerodrome traffic zone during the notified hours of watch of the
  air traffic control unit (if any) at that aerodrome unless the permission of
  any such air traffic control unit has been obtained;
  or
  (c) at a height of more than 400 feet above the surface unless it is flying in
  airspace described in sub-paragraph (a) or (b) and in accordance with the
  requirements for that airspace.
  
  (5) The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft must not fly the aircraft for
  the purposes of commercial operations except in accordance with a permission granted by
  the CAA.
  
  Article 95 - small unmanned surveillance aircraft
  (1) The person in charge of a small unmanned surveillance aircraft must not fly the
  aircraft in any of the circumstances described in paragraph (2) except in
  accordance with a permission issued by the CAA.
  
  (2) The circumstances referred to in paragraph (1) are:
  
  (a) over or within 150 metres of any congested area;
  
  (b) over or within 150 metres of an organised open-air assembly of more than
  1,000 persons;
  
  (c) within 50 metres of any vessel, vehicle or structure which is not under the
  control of the person in charge of the aircraft;
  or
  (d) subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), within 50 metres of any person.
  
  (3) Subject to paragraph (4), during take-off or landing, a small unmanned
  surveillance aircraft must not be flown within 30 metres of any person.
  
  (4) Paragraphs (2)(d) and (3) do not apply to the person in charge of the small
  unmanned surveillance aircraft or a person under the control of the person in
  charge of the aircraft.
  
  (5) In this article 'a small unmanned surveillance aircraft' means a small unmanned
  aircraft which is equipped to undertake any form of surveillance or data
  acquisition.
  

 

[Star Lord]

I agree it is a slightly grey area but surly it is classed as aerial work. You are using you drone for the sole purpose of personal financial gain.

You are not surveying peoples property out of the kindness of your heart. You aim to get paid.

ANO 2009 Article 259 'Meaning of Aerial Work' details that a flight is for the
purpose of aerial work if valuable consideration is given or promised in respect of
the flight or the purpose of the flight.

I've been thinking over this for far to long. The CAA really not to be clearer. Its a bit paradoxical.

 

[Gray52]

Well I would say you are looking for any potential health and safety risks for your staff when working on said roof. You can then advise them accordingly on what precautions to take. You may even spot asbestos, so could potentially save someones life. After all quoting health and safety in any other situation always works[emoji16].

 

[Jake 61]

I've looked at this as well. As a safety consultant, I see a gap where I could be using the drone for some of the jobs I do, but the legislation, and I've read it, only says to me that somebody is about to make a four figure sum, for giving me a piece of paper which is damned near worthless and just short of daylight robbery.
None of it makes me safer in the air, or less of a risk.
I do that.

 

[copterbob]

Fly the paramotor and hang a GoPro from your left boot. They come with a remote now...

 

[Howdeedoodee]

Help and information for other drone owners

Hi fellow flyers

I've spent about a week in the evenings reading all the information on the UK CAA (civil aviation authority) website (165 pages total) and have additionally spoken to the BMFA (British model flying association) in depth,as well as drone training websites and I've realised that you can apply to the CAA (UK) yourself.
To enable you to do this you will have to prove you have previous flying experience, so if you belong to a RC flying club the flying achievements and or the club secretary could witness and endorse you as an safe flying RC/drone pilot. (There's a set obstacle/coarse the Drone trainers use) you could easily set one up yourself at your RC club.
Then spent a couple of months logging as many drone flights as possible and ideally videoing them both from the ground with your phone and video footage from the drone, then make a drone flight channel on Youtube, I say this because the CAA will accept any form of proof as a safe pilot during their investigations (i asked them)
Then get permission from building and home owners to practice on their properties and video the whole process showing you are flying and operating within the full scope of your operations manual, operations manuals of all kinds can be downloaded off the net and printed off (i think the CAA has one for downloading as i remember reading)
When recording your flights have all the necessary safety gear like fire extinguisher,first aid,drone barrier,hi viz etc,..all as per your operations manual.
keep flight logs of flights,again a flight log can be downloaded off the net.
Try and get a short letter from each of the Building owners you practice on, you could draw up a draught letter that they just sign as happy that you operated safely and with your operations manual.
Bottom line is they just want you to prove you are a safe pilot and comply with all aspects of your operations manual with insurance.
Obviously this is not for the inexperienced but for those that think WTF! a £1000 for drone training coarse! save the money as do it yourself.
I've been flying big gas planes (100cc plus) RC helicopters, RC Jets 200mph + F5D planes 200mph + and to be honest flying A DJI GPS drone is so childs play its similar to asking an F1 racing car driver if he can drive a go-cart.
The lowest standard application is drones of 7kg and under, this covers most DJI drones right up to a Matrice 200 which is 6.2kg fully loaded.
If anybody wants all the info relevant to doing an application let me know and I'll email it.
Here's a quick free download i found. Operations Manual for Leicester Drones
Just copy and type it up yourself...that's what i'm doing. there's also plenty of others on the web to download.
Final Thought
All this can be done at your own pace and to be honest i'm quite enjoying putting this all together myself.
plus you don't have to take 3 days off work driving gods knows where to take the coarse and paying for hotels.
If your self employed this is what it will cost you.
Coarse approx £1000
3-4 days off work £800 (i'm an electrician)
insurance approx £150-£200
CAA application £173
hotel 3 days £150
Fuel to drive there £50
Total approx £2500
Do the whole process yourself and save approx £2000.

 

[Howdeedoodee]

I've looked at this as well. As a safety consultant, I see a gap where I could be using the drone for some of the jobs I do, but the legislation, and I've read it, only says to me that somebody is about to make a four figure sum, for giving me a piece of paper which is damned near worthless and just short of daylight robbery.
None of it makes me safer in the air, or less of a risk.
I do that.

Help and information for other drone owners

Hi fellow flyers

I've spent about a week in the evenings reading all the information on the UK CAA (civil aviation authority) website (165 pages total) and have additionally spoken to the BMFA (British model flying association) in depth,as well as drone training websites and I've realised that you can apply to the CAA (UK) yourself.
To enable you to do this you will have to prove you have previous flying experience, so if you belong to a RC flying club the flying achievements and or the club secretary could witness and endorse you as an safe flying RC/drone pilot. (There's a set obstacle/coarse the Drone trainers use) you could easily set one up yourself at your RC club.
Then spent a couple of months logging as many drone flights as possible and ideally videoing them both from the ground with your phone and video footage from the drone, then make a drone flight channel on Youtube, I say this because the CAA will accept any form of proof as a safe pilot during their investigations (i asked them)
Then get permission from building and home owners to practice on their properties and video the whole process showing you are flying and operating within the full scope of your operations manual, operations manuals of all kinds can be downloaded off the net and printed off (i think the CAA has one for downloading as i remember reading)
When recording your flights have all the necessary safety gear like fire extinguisher,first aid,drone barrier,hi viz etc,..all as per your operations manual.
keep flight logs of flights,again a flight log can be downloaded off the net.
Try and get a short letter from each of the Building owners you practice on, you could draw up a draught letter that they just sign as happy that you operated safely and with your operations manual.
Bottom line is they just want you to prove you are a safe pilot and comply with all aspects of your operations manual with insurance.
Obviously this is not for the inexperienced but for those that think WTF! a £1000 for drone training coarse! save the money as do it yourself.
I've been flying big gas planes (100cc plus) RC helicopters, RC Jets 200mph + F5D planes 200mph + and to be honest flying A DJI GPS drone is so childs play its similar to asking an F1 racing car driver if he can drive a go-cart.
The lowest standard application is drones of 7kg and under, this covers most DJI drones right up to a Matrice 200 which is 6.2kg fully loaded.
If anybody wants all the info relevant to doing an application let me know and I'll email it.
Here's a quick free download i found. Operations Manual for Leicester Drones
Just copy and type it up yourself...that's what i'm doing. there's also plenty of others on the web to download.
Final Thought
All this can be done at your own pace and to be honest i'm quite enjoying putting this all together myself.
plus you don't have to take 3 days off work driving gods knows where to take the coarse and paying for hotels.
If your self employed this is what it will cost you.
Coarse approx £1000
3-4 days off work £800 (i'm an electrician)
insurance approx £150-£200
CAA application £173
hotel 3 days £150
Fuel to drive there £50
Total approx £2500
Do the whole process yourself and save approx £2000.

 

[Howdeedoodee]

I agree it is a slightly grey area but surly it is classed as aerial work. You are using you drone for the sole purpose of personal financial gain.

You are not surveying peoples property out of the kindness of your heart. You aim to get paid.

ANO 2009 Article 259 'Meaning of Aerial Work' details that a flight is for the
purpose of aerial work if valuable consideration is given or promised in respect of
the flight or the purpose of the flight.

I've been thinking over this for far to long. The CAA really not to be clearer. Its a bit paradoxical.

Hi
It says Direct financial gain, i don't charge for this aspect of the work,only for the roof works.
see my updated post below of how to do it yourself.