Calif. tourist fined $20K for out-of-control drone that landed at airport in Las Vegas flight in 2018

[pftarch]

.......... I fly multirotors just about 7 days a week but they don't compare to the excitement of Stick & Rudder or Yank & Bank

Have you tried FPV racing/freestyle quads? (I thought of it when you said "yank and bank".)

I've never flown RC planes, but I REALLY enjoy FPV flying. My Mavic is an outstanding machine for what it does, but the "piloting" experience is so much more involved with a racing drone. You should give it a try (if you haven't already).

Enjoy!

Peter T.

 

[pftarch]

Let's all take a deep breath....

I know that people here are happy about the FAA coming down hard on illegal operators, but.....

20 THOUSAND dollars?

Here is some information on NH (my home state) rules and fines:

Class A felonies include murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, assault resulting in serious bodily injury, theft of property valued at $1,000 or more, sex crimes, and drug crimes....
A Class A felony is punishable by a maximum range of 7½ to 15 years in prison and a fine up to $4,000.

So if you violently KIDNAP someone in NH, you can be fined up to $4,000. If you are negligent with your drone in Las Vegas, and, mistakenly, it gets away from you you, but doesn't (thank goodness) result in any property or personal damage, you get fined $20,000 (after late fees).

I have always been concerned about the FAA $25,000 fine rule, and this is why.

Yes, fine him 2 or 3 thousand dollars and make him do public outreach explaining how bad what he did was (and I am in NO WAY condoning his flight, even before it went off the rails), but I personally feel that the fine is extremely excessive. (I do believe that the airport has the right to a civil award if monetary damages due to delays, enforcement, etc. occurred.)

Yes, his mistake was BAD, but, right now the FAA could fine you $25,000 for flying 31 minutes after sunset if they wanted to "set an example". Is there a judge or jury involved when the FAA levels a fine? What is the operators recourse if they feel that they were fined excessively? (These are questions that I hope that I never have to personally answer.)

I just find it disheartening that here, on a forum for drone operators, we get so excited about seeing other operators punished. I get it that we all feel like the "bad actors" are ruining our hobby, but the reality is that many of the "non-drone" people out there are really afraid of our drones, even if they are operated in a legal manner. It's not like this fine is going to make the NPS say "Great, the FAA is fining the living daylights out of people, NOW we can open up parts of our parks for recreational flying."

Just my two cents.....

 

[DoomMeister]

Let's all take a deep breath....

I know that people here are happy about the FAA coming down hard on illegal operators, but.....

20 THOUSAND dollars?

Here is some information on NH (my home state) rules and fines:

Class A felonies include murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, assault resulting in serious bodily injury, theft of property valued at $1,000 or more, sex crimes, and drug crimes....
A Class A felony is punishable by a maximum range of 7½ to 15 years in prison and a fine up to $4,000.

So if you violently KIDNAP someone in NH, you can be fined up to $4,000. If you are negligent with your drone in Las Vegas, and, mistakenly, it gets away from you you, but doesn't (thank goodness) result in any property or personal damage, you get fined $20,000 (after late fees).

I have always been concerned about the FAA $25,000 fine rule, and this is why.

Yes, fine him 2 or 3 thousand dollars and make him do public outreach explaining how bad what he did was (and I am in NO WAY condoning his flight, even before it went off the rails), but I personally feel that the fine is extremely excessive. (I do believe that the airport has the right to a civil award if monetary damages due to delays, enforcement, etc. occurred.)

Yes, his mistake was BAD, but, right now the FAA could fine you $25,000 for flying 31 minutes after sunset if they wanted to "set an example". Is there a judge or jury involved when the FAA levels a fine? What is the operators recourse if they feel that they were fined excessively? (These are questions that I hope that I never have to personally answer.)

I just find it disheartening that here, on a forum for drone operators, we get so excited about seeing other operators punished. I get it that we all feel like the "bad actors" are ruining our hobby, but the reality is that many of the "non-drone" people out there are really afraid of our drones, even if they are operated in a legal manner. It's not like this fine is going to make the NPS say "Great, the FAA is fining the living daylights out of people, NOW we can open up parts of our parks for recreational flying."

Just my two cents.....

I think the fact that a TFR was in place for POTUS may have been a contributing factor in the level of the fine (which was originally $15K).

Sounds to me like NH has fines stuck in the 1930’s. Kill someone or seriously injure a person and NH places a $4000 price on that life? Not that you can place a monetary value on life, but $4000 is a bit on the trivial side IMHO.

 

[BigAl07]

Have you tried FPV racing/freestyle quads? (I thought of it when you said "yank and bank".)

I've never flown RC planes, but I REALLY enjoy FPV flying. My Mavic is an outstanding machine for what it does, but the "piloting" experience is so much more involved with a racing drone. You should give it a try (if you haven't already).

Enjoy!

Peter T.

Oh yes indeed I have and I'm actually contemplating getting a dedicated FPV unit very soon. I've intentionally kept away from that sport because I know how addictive it can be and how easily you can spend a small fortune playing around.

Let's all take a deep breath....

I know that people here are happy about the FAA coming down hard on illegal operators, but.....

20 THOUSAND dollars?

Here is some information on NH (my home state) rules and fines:

Class A felonies include murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, assault resulting in serious bodily injury, theft of property valued at $1,000 or more, sex crimes, and drug crimes....
A Class A felony is punishable by a maximum range of 7½ to 15 years in prison and a fine up to $4,000.

So if you violently KIDNAP someone in NH, you can be fined up to $4,000. If you are negligent with your drone in Las Vegas, and, mistakenly, it gets away from you you, but doesn't (thank goodness) result in any property or personal damage, you get fined $20,000 (after late fees).

I have always been concerned about the FAA $25,000 fine rule, and this is why.

Yes, fine him 2 or 3 thousand dollars and make him do public outreach explaining how bad what he did was (and I am in NO WAY condoning his flight, even before it went off the rails), but I personally feel that the fine is extremely excessive. (I do believe that the airport has the right to a civil award if monetary damages due to delays, enforcement, etc. occurred.)

Yes, his mistake was BAD, but, right now the FAA could fine you $25,000 for flying 31 minutes after sunset if they wanted to "set an example". Is there a judge or jury involved when the FAA levels a fine? What is the operators recourse if they feel that they were fined excessively? (These are questions that I hope that I never have to personally answer.)

I just find it disheartening that here, on a forum for drone operators, we get so excited about seeing other operators punished. I get it that we all feel like the "bad actors" are ruining our hobby, but the reality is that many of the "non-drone" people out there are really afraid of our drones, even if they are operated in a legal manner. It's not like this fine is going to make the NPS say "Great, the FAA is fining the living daylights out of people, NOW we can open up parts of our parks for recreational flying."

Just my two cents.....

The fines fit the actions. If it was only one issue (and no late fees) that's one thing but he had multiple infractions and he is currently being assessed late fees which will only increase the amount owed. The operator is his own worst enemy in this situation.

Fact of the matter is if he had handled this correctly and in a timely manner he probably would have minimal (if ANY) fines.

Case-In-Point ~ In North Carolina we had a young man (school age) who literally cut a Police Helicopter off mid-flight for a high speed chase. He was identified and the FAA levied some heavy fines against him. He agreed to his errors and was able to "Plead Down" his fines/sentence to $2K in fines and he was required to attend every school in his home district and speak for 1hr each. He had to explain to each school what he did wrong, why it was wrong, and the depth of danger he put others in for his illegal actions.

 

[sar104]

I think the fact that a TFR was in place for POTUS may have been a contributing factor in the level of the fine (which was originally $15K).

Sounds to me like NH has fines stuck in the 1930’s. Kill someone or seriously injure a person and NH places a $4000 price on that life? Not that you can place a monetary value on life, but $4000 is a bit on the trivial side IMHO.

Right - but this discussion is completely ignoring the jail time for those felonies and only focussing on the fines.

 

[Rich55]

Or get proceeds from selling everything a bankruptcy court will take from him...

I expect the moderator to shut this thread down any second now.

 

[BigAl07]

I expect the moderator to shut this thread down any second now.

Ironically you quoted a post from one of our Moderators here on the forum.

Nothing in this thread (so far) to close this thread about. It's going along pretty good so far but the morning is still young and fresh

 

[pftarch]

Oh yes indeed I have and I'm actually contemplating getting a dedicated FPV unit very soon. I've intentionally kept away from that sport because I know how addictive it can be and how easily you can spend a small fortune playing around........

Addicting isn't a strong enough word.

The good news is that if you stay small you can keep the costs manageable:

Decent 3 inch racing drone or decent brushless Mini Whoop = $175 (+/-) (I have the Fullspeedrc Leader 3 and the Happy Model Snapper 7)

Decent Transmitter = $125 (I use the Taranis Q7, but you may be able to use an RC transmitter that you already own.)

Somewhat decent goggles = $125 (Eachine EV800D)

Upgrade to REALLY decent goggles = $500 (to be added to the above) (This gets you a top tier goggle, Fatshark HDO, and an Immersion Rapid-fire receiver.)

Long story short, for $425 you can start from scratch and for $925 you can do it with top tier goggles.

It's not chump change by any means, but, compared to the price of a Mavic (and potentially a new phone) it looks like a bargain.

(The goggles and the receiver are worth spending a little more on because you don't slam them into trees on a regular basis.)

The brushless whoop is a blast because you fly it INSIDE and absolutely terrorize your loved ones and pets during bad weather, at night, and, when you just feel like be annoying.

Now for the bad news...

I have TWO Leader 3's and TWO Snapper 7's because I trashed the first ones in less than a year. (Fly, Crash, Repair, Repeat.......)


Enjoy!

Peter T

 

[DoomMeister]

Right - but this discussion is completely ignoring the jail time for those felonies and only focussing on the fines.

True, but $15K and no jail is not comparatively excessive. Plus, being a federal offense Las Vegas and Nevada have no effect on the scale of penalties, so it would be the same in NH.

 

[sar104]

True, but $15K and no jail is not comparatively excessive. Plus, being a federal offense Las Vegas and Nevada have no effect on the scale of penalties, so it would be the same in NH.

I agree. I was pointing out that the existence of lower fines for more serious crimes is an incomplete comparison if the associated jail sentences are not included.

 

[DanMan32]

Even 15 years max seems too lenient for 1st degree murder. That's usually 15 to life, and even death in some states and circumstances.

 

[sar104]

@BigAl07 asked me to take a look at the flight log for this unfortunate flight. The only log available appears to be an AirData csv conversion, which is missing a lot of data fields, but there is still quite a lot of data to work with.

Firstly, the log messages indicate a number of compass errors and a switch to ATTI mode before the control connection was lost. Without the magnetometer data to compare with the IMU yaw values, I employed the usual trick of differentiating the recorded position with respect to time and then subtracting from the IMU velocity. This technique generally highlights compass errors quite well by deviation from the expected baseline of zero.



The resulting data agree with the compass error messages at around 60, 150 and 200 seconds. The cause of the errors is impossible to determine from such limited data, but it the problem led to the FC switching to ATTI mode. In the plot below the rather confusing wifi reconnect status values are removed for clarity:



The switch at 240 seconds, briefly interrupted by autoland, led to the aircraft drifting away and losing connection after flying behind a tall building that obstructed the link. In that sense the event was accidental, but for some reason the pilot made no attempt at all to control the aircraft once it started drifting - almost no stick inputs at all other than one very brief application of elevator at 255 seconds:



That's strange, because despite the compass errors the aircraft did respond appropriately to stick inputs, including the brief elevator input at 255 seconds:



The pilot had 73 seconds to control the aircraft after the ATTI switch occurred and the aircraft ceased autolanding at the home point, and before the connection was lost:



As a sanity check on the final outcome, extrapolating drift rate and battery depletion yields the following:



That suggests that it should have drifted to around 5000 m before autolanding. That puts it at the airport, although further than it actually travelled by around 1200 m. The reason is that the drift rate (i.e. wind speed) slowed as it headed for the airport. Analysis of the video show the actual track followed, with autolanding at almost exactly the predicted time (1068 seconds) just west of 19L-1R.



In conclusion, it looks like very careless piloting - either the pilot had no idea what to do in ATTI mode, or failed to notice that it was drifting away.

 

[Thomas B]

Thanks @sar104
One question in my mind.... given the airport location. Does ATTI mode allow the drone to enter an NFZ? There must have been one there.
TIA

 

[BigAl07]

Thanks @sar104
One question in my mind.... given the airport location. Does ATTI mode allow the drone to enter an NFZ? There must have been one there.
TIA

Without GPS the aircraft has no reference to it's position so GeoZones are useless at that time.

 

[KeithLa]

Excellent info, I was hoping to see a flight log analysis, and no one better than the team here.

@sar104 @BigAl07 I'm curious to better understand, irrespective of the legality and poor choice of location for this flight, what should have been the response of this pilot after realizing the control problem?

Moreover, how would this situation have appeared to the pilot in DJI Go and on the remote controller, if that had a display as well?

I've thankfully not experienced this type of flight complication (ATTI, etc.) just app disconnects and an occasional temporary controller disconnect.

 

[SkyDogII]

OMG
Don’t even get me started with drivers tests again. It’s the morality of the person that’s the issue here. Only a moral person who obeys laws will do what is right.
Good luck in your quest

 

[Chip]

Let's all take a deep breath....

I know that people here are happy about the FAA coming down hard on illegal operators, but.....

20 THOUSAND dollars?

Here is some information on NH (my home state) rules and fines:

Class A felonies include murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, assault resulting in serious bodily injury, theft of property valued at $1,000 or more, sex crimes, and drug crimes....
A Class A felony is punishable by a maximum range of 7½ to 15 years in prison and a fine up to $4,000.

So if you violently KIDNAP someone in NH, you can be fined up to $4,000. If you are negligent with your drone in Las Vegas, and, mistakenly, it gets away from you you, but doesn't (thank goodness) result in any property or personal damage, you get fined $20,000 (after late fees).

I have always been concerned about the FAA $25,000 fine rule, and this is why.

Yes, fine him 2 or 3 thousand dollars and make him do public outreach explaining how bad what he did was (and I am in NO WAY condoning his flight, even before it went off the rails), but I personally feel that the fine is extremely excessive. (I do believe that the airport has the right to a civil award if monetary damages due to delays, enforcement, etc. occurred.)

Yes, his mistake was BAD, but, right now the FAA could fine you $25,000 for flying 31 minutes after sunset if they wanted to "set an example". Is there a judge or jury involved when the FAA levels a fine? What is the operators recourse if they feel that they were fined excessively? (These are questions that I hope that I never have to personally answer.)

I just find it disheartening that here, on a forum for drone operators, we get so excited about seeing other operators punished. I get it that we all feel like the "bad actors" are ruining our hobby, but the reality is that many of the "non-drone" people out there are really afraid of our drones, even if they are operated in a legal manner. It's not like this fine is going to make the NPS say "Great, the FAA is fining the living daylights out of people, NOW we can open up parts of our parks for recreational flying."

Just my two cents.....

I agree with many of your points but it appears we may be in minority. Yes, it was dumb and dangerous flight to undertake but imposing a fine equal to 50% of person's annual income of $40K seems excessive to me especially when there is no injury, damage or inconvenience to anyone.

I might go along with it if I knew for a fact that proportionally punitve penalties would be imposed on owners and operators of commercial drones which crash or land somewhere they shouldn't. Let's take Amazon delivery drone that accidentally lands in wrong place for example. By my calculation 50% of $232.88 billion annual revenue is $116.44 billion.

Is there a judge or jury involved when the FAA levels a fine? What is the operators recourse if they feel that they were fined excessively? (These are questions that I hope that I never have to personally answer.)

No, this is considered a civil (as opposed to criminal) penalty so there is no constitutional right to a jury trial although there is still a constitutional right to due process. (Government cannot deprive you of freedom or property without due process of law). Due process here would include the right to appeal the fine to an administrative law judge who would conduct a hearing using rules of evidence and procedure similar but not identical to those in courtroom.

 

[sar104]

Thanks @sar104
One question in my mind.... given the airport location. Does ATTI mode allow the drone to enter an NFZ? There must have been one there.
TIA

Without GPS the aircraft has no reference to it's position so GeoZones are useless at that time.

Actually there was no problem with the aircraft's GPS positioning - the problem was the yaw/compass error. So even though it may have known that it was in a geo zone, it had no navigational capability to hold position at the boundary. The flight started inside the McCarran authorization zone - either the pilot self-authorized or this aircraft firmware wasn't geo-aware. It entered the airport restricted zone without immediately autolanding, so I suspect the latter. And there were not geo zone notices in the message log.

 

[sar104]

Excellent info, I was hoping to see a flight log analysis, and no one better than the team here.

@sar104 @BigAl07 I'm curious to better understand, irrespective of the legality and poor choice of location for this flight, what should have been the response of this pilot after realizing the control problem?

Moreover, how would this situation have appeared to the pilot in DJI Go and on the remote controller, if that had a display as well?

I've thankfully not experienced this type of flight complication (ATTI, etc.) just app disconnects and an occasional temporary controller disconnect.

It would have appeared as an ATTI mode notification - the actual message that was displayed at 240 seconds was:

"Yaw Error. Warning:Abnormal compass function or GPS signal detected. Aircraft switched to ATTI mode."​

The correct response is simply to use the sticks to fly the aircraft back to the home point. It would have been a bit slippery due to the lack of position holding in ATTI, but the wind speed was only around 10 mph, so not a big issue.

 

[KeithLa]

The correct response is simply to use the sticks to fly the aircraft back to the home point. It would have been a bit slippery due to the lack of position holding in ATTI, but the wind speed was only around 10 mph, so not a big issue.

Thanks @sar104. Perhaps even viable to fly to any visibly safe spot to land, even away from the home point.

My takeaway from this news story is that this situation could happen even in an otherwise safe and legal takeoff spot, so good for all of us to know how to recognize and respond safely.

I bet many of us have never attempted ATTI mode, fearing damage or flyaway, so probably a good thing to practice in a safe wide open field.

That's easier said than done in the moment, since some panic sets in when we lose normal control, or even just video feed and telemetry in the app.