Cross border flights, whose rules apply?

[Yorkshire_Pud]

Specifically I am thinking of the border between Northern Ireland and Eire in both directions. But there are other borders too lol.

 

[old man mavic]

interesting question ,for me i would think that it would be the rules ,in the country where the drone is flying at the time ,so in Ireland ,you have UK rules on one side of the border ,and EU rules ,on the other ,

 

[lensimages]

interesting question ,for me i would think that it would be the rules ,in the country where the drone is flying at the time ,so in Ireland ,you have UK rules on one side of the border ,and EU rules ,on the other ,

That means then you should have 2 licences a UK one and a EU Ireland one or am I wrong, yes a very interesting question, cheers Len

 

[Howard70]

Very interesting question! I don’t have an answer, but the situation reminds me of the time we bought a sailboat based in California USA, but took delivery in Baja California Mexico, then immediately trucked the boat to New Mexico USA and documented her with Albuquerque, New Mexico as her home port. Eventually we received requests for sales tax from California, Texas, and New Mexico!

Howard

 

[Zbip57]

The answer is obvious if you travel to another country, say Iran, and try to fly your drone there. Whoever controls the airspace is the one making the rules.

Our Canadian regulations specifically forbid anyone flying a drone in Canada to fly across the border.
CARS 901.13

901.13 No pilot operating a remotely piloted aircraft shall cause the aircraft to leave Canadian Domestic Airspace.​

Of course that doesn't prevent you packing it up and travelling to the USA to fly the drone there. But then you'll be operating under the FAA's rules.

 

[Yorkshire_Pud]

@Zbip57 that's interesting. So what about a pilot launching in USA and flying over the border into Canadian airspace? Could they legally RTH the drone? lol

 

[Ralph thompson]

The airspace of every country is sovereign, you must abide by the airspace regulations of the country as soon as us cross the border. A bit like driving on the LHS of the road in Britain then going to France and continuing to drive on the LHS, the reason for abiding by the rules of the country are obvious.

 

[EpicFlight]

I can answer this: The rules governing the airspace you are in, period.

Nations are VERY sensitive about airspace, because it is a far more vulnerable avenue from a security perspective.

Cross the border and your flying according to their rules. Make sure you know them.

Remember, flying around looking at stuff, taking pictures, from across the border could be paranoid interpreted as spying.

Not trying to get you too worried, just reminding everyone that governments have a very different attitude about aircraft coming into their airspace where they have no jurisdiction over the pilot, and therefore no control. I doubt it happens to recreational drones much, if ever, but just keep in mind it may get shot down. At least the risk is higher.

 

[Zbip57]

@Zbip57So what about a pilot launching in USA and flying over the border into Canadian airspace?

In the case of such an unauthorized incursion into Canada's sovereign airspace, we would immediately scramble all of our operational fighter jets (both of them) to intercept and shoot down the intruder. If that's not enough of a deterrent we might launch our ultimate defensive weapon, squadrons of highly trained cobra chicken Canada Geese and they will poop on your lawn. So there.

 

[lensimages]

In the case of such an unauthorized incursion into Canada's sovereign airspace, we would immediately scramble all of our operational fighter jets (both of them) to intercept and shoot down the intruder. If that's not enough of a deterrent we might launch our ultimate defensive weapon, squadrons of highly trained cobra chicken Canada Geese and they will poop on your lawn. So there.

Flipping warmonger

 

[NG Wildman]

In the case of such an unauthorized incursion into Canada's sovereign airspace, we would immediately scramble all of our operational fighter jets (both of them) to intercept and shoot down the intruder. If that's not enough of a deterrent we might launch our ultimate defensive weapon, squadrons of highly trained cobra chicken Canada Geese and they will poop on your lawn. So there.

From someone who lives just a tad South...KEEP THE POOP, Please...LOL.

 

[Zbip57]

KEEP THE POOP, Please...LOL.

The threat of poop is an effective deterrent. All it takes is one guy stupidly flying their drone over the border, and it "ruins the hobby" for everyone.

Release the hordes of cobra chickens!

Problem is there's no recall mechanism. Once those things are set loose, there's no going back. Goose poop everywhere. Ewww.

We're currently plotting to aim them at Russia, but the shortest polar route to there from Ottawa means the Geese will spend at least half their time flying over our own territory while subjecting us to continual "friendly fire". More research is required...

 

[Yorkshire_Pud]

The airspace of every country is sovereign, you must abide by the airspace regulations of the country as soon as us cross the border. A bit like driving on the LHS of the road in Britain then going to France and continuing to drive on the LHS, the reason for abiding by the rules of the country are obvious.

So, just for clarification, are you saying if the pilot launches from country A and flies the drone across a border into country B, country A's rules cease to apply to the pilot as soon as the drone is in country B's airspace?

 

[EpicFlight]

So, just for clarification, are you saying if the pilot launches from country A and flies the drone across a border into country B, country A's rules cease to apply to the pilot as soon as the drone is in country B's airspace?

Yes. 100%.

Country B is gonna get pretty pissed when country A starts enforcing its laws within their borders.

"Aircraft are prohibited from doing X in our airspace. We don't give a flying Frank what country A says".

 

[DoomMeister]

If that's not enough of a deterrent we might launch our ultimate defensive weapon, squadrons of highly trained cobra chicken Canada Geese and they will poop on your lawn.

Or make a valiant attempt at turning your local golf course into a goose gauntlet.

 

[Rich QR]

It's not just the rules for flying that you need to worry about, but also the rules for registration. I remember when registering my drone in the US, there was an opportunity to register under a different set of rules to get an "N-number", the kind of registration used for human-carrying aircraft, if you were planning on flying internationally and needed that kind of registration.

I haven't looked into it in detail, but it's something to look up if you're planning on flying across a border.

There may be rules around customs inspections and that sort of thing, too. Perhaps they only apply if you land (or release a package), but they may apply as soon as you transition from one nation's airspace to another. I would expect many borders are patrolled for signs of smuggling contraband, and I further suspect that someone has tried to use a drone to ship drugs across an international border. It's best to know the rules and avoid any appearance of breaking them around an international border.

 

[Yorkshire_Pud]

Yes. 100%.

Country B is gonna get pretty pissed when country A starts enforcing its laws within their borders.

"Aircraft are prohibited from doing X in our airspace. We don't give a flying Frank what country A says".

Let me rephrase.
The drone may be in country B but the pilot is still in country A, whose rules and what rules apply to the pilot?

For example, lets assume both countries have a must-be-in-VLOS rule and that the drone is beyond the pilot's VLOS when 'deep' in country B's airspace but is in VLOS at the border and in country A's airspace. Assume the drone is flown deep into country B's airspace and out of the pilots VLOS.
Since the drone is not in country A's air space could country A prosecute the pilot for non compliance? Conversely since the pilot is not in country B's jurisdiction how could they prosecute the pilot?

I am not nit-picking nor am I contemplating such flights, just raising points for consideration.

I know there are mutals cooperation agreements for some legal matters between some countries but it seems it could be a complicated area

 

[EpicFlight]

Let me rephrase.
The drone may be in country B but the pilot is still in country A, whose rules and what rules apply to the pilot?

For example, lets assume both countries have a must-be-in-VLOS rule and that the drone is beyond the pilot's VLOS when 'deep' in country B's airspace but is in VLOS at the border and in country A's airspace. Assume the drone is flown deep into country B's airspace and out of the pilots VLOS.
Since the drone is not in country A's air space could country A prosecute the pilot for non compliance? Conversely since the pilot is not in country B's jurisdiction how could they prosecute the pilot?

I am not nit-picking nor am I contemplating such flights, just raising points for consideration.

I know there are mutals cooperation agreements for some legal matters between some countries but it seems it could be a complicated area

Not sure what's unclear.

It doesn't matter where the pilot is. The risk to the citizens is the aircraft. It could be delivering an explosive from a terrorist.

How much more clearly and simply can this be stated? The rules under which a drone flies are those where it's flying. If it was the jurisdiction of where the remote pilot is located, it doesn't take much imagination to guess at what sort of serious mischief could be perpetrated.

 

[EpicFlight]

The pilot's location is irrelevant to what rules apply. The controlling law is that in the jurisdiction where the aircraft is.

The pilot's location is only relevant to pursuing accountability for a violation. Send a bomb across the border and kill or injure some people, and you will be extradited without a doubt if they can identify you.

Simply annoy some people on the other side and it's likely nothing will happen. Violate VLOS requirements across borders and similarly nothing is likely to happen. The pilot's out of reach, and the offense doesn't justify expending limited resources on something utterly inconsequential.

 

[NG Wildman]

The threat of poop is an effective deterrent. All it takes is one guy stupidly flying their drone over the border, and it "ruins the hobby" for everyone.

Release the hordes of cobra chickens!

Problem is there's no recall mechanism. Once those things are set loose, there's no going back. Goose poop everywhere. Ewww.

We're currently plotting to aim them at Russia, but the shortest polar route to there from Ottawa means the Geese will spend at least half their time flying over our own territory while subjecting us to continual "friendly fire". More research is required...

What a great response...I love it.