Drones "Spying" on New Jersey.

mavic3usa · Feb 13, 2025

"Stonewalling, stovepiping, and gaslighting."

As you know I'm not a big fan of federal government (either side) but this is clearly what we all experienced a few months ago (it's so obvious to me) and therefore I am glad an effort is being made to at least bringing attention to the matter. When the government is no longer afraid of the people and the people are afraid of the government, this is what happens. Hopefully we get some answers (and in particular, a few more details about the "drones over NJ").

Chip · Feb 14, 2025

mavic3usa said:
"Stonewalling, stovepiping, and gaslighting."

I had not heard the expression stove piping before. I had to look it up. "In intelligence gathering, stovepiping is the presentation of information without proper context. It can be caused by the specialized nature or security requirements of a particular intelligence-collection technology." That is a new one on me!

mavic3usa said:
As you know I'm not a big fan of federal government (either side) but this is clearly what we all experienced a few months ago (it's so obvious to me) and therefore I am glad an effort is being made to at least bringing attention to the matter. When the government is no longer afraid of the people and the people are afraid of the government, this is what happens. Hopefully we get some answers (and in particular, a few more details about the "drones over NJ").

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Yes, but we may have to figure out for ourselves: what research and "other things" did the FAA authorize and for what purpose? But I think we can do it. So long as we watch out for the stove pipers and word smithers determined to derail us off the track.

One of the early theories was bomb sniffing drones possibly looking for loose nuke or dirty bomb. Some witnesses reported seeing the drones flying low in grid patterns which one or more "experts" said was consistent with "sniffer drones."

In trying to understand what "classified" research the FAA is "authorized to authorize," I ran into this:

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION Federal Aviation Administration
Petition for Exemption Docket No.: FAA–2024–0267.
Petitioner: Clandestine Materials Detection.

AGENCY: Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), Department of Transportation (DOT).
Description of Relief Sought: Clandestine Materials Detection requests an exemption to conduct research and development for operation of a repurposed Hylio AG–130/AG–230 unmanned aircraft system (UAS) to detect and geolocate landmines and unexploded ordinance. The UAS will be equipped with a neutron source and gamma detector that uses Gamma Neutron Activation Analysis.
[FR Doc. 2024–12249 Filed 6–4–24; 8:45 am]

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2024-06-05/pdf/2024-12249.pdf

Hylio’s fully autonomous AG-130 drone possesses an eight-rotor unmanned aircraft systems platform.

Coincidence or stovepipe?

jaja6009 · Feb 14, 2025

Chip said:
I had not heard the expression stove piping before. I had to look it up. "In intelligence gathering, stovepiping is the presentation of information without proper context. It can be caused by the specialized nature or security requirements of a particular intelligence-collection technology." That is a new one on me!

Yes, but we may have to figure out for ourselves: what research and "other things" did the FAA authorize and for what purpose? But I think we can do it. So long as we watch out for the stove pipers and word smithers determined to derail us off the track.

One of the early theories was bomb sniffing drones possibly looking for loose nuke or dirty bomb. Some witnesses reported seeing the drones flying low in grid patterns which one or more "experts" said was consistent with "sniffer drones."

In trying to understand what "classified" research the FAA is "authorized to authorize," I ran into this:

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION Federal Aviation Administration
Petition for Exemption Docket No.: FAA–2024–0267.
Petitioner: Clandestine Materials Detection.

AGENCY: Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), Department of Transportation (DOT).
Description of Relief Sought: Clandestine Materials Detection requests an exemption to conduct research and development for operation of a repurposed Hylio AG–130/AG–230 unmanned aircraft system (UAS) to detect and geolocate landmines and unexploded ordinance. The UAS will be equipped with a neutron source and gamma detector that uses Gamma Neutron Activation Analysis.
[FR Doc. 2024–12249 Filed 6–4–24; 8:45 am]

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2024-06-05/pdf/2024-12249.pdf

View attachment 181066
Hylio’s fully autonomous AG-130 drone possesses an eight-rotor unmanned aircraft systems platform.

View attachment 181067

Coincidence or stovepipe?

When I saw the lights at the height of the sightings they seemed like they were flying a mapping grid. I have ~200 drone mapping hours under my belt including thermal at night so after staring at my drones and the mystery lights, yeah they seemed like they were flying a grid pattern. My question is what were they mapping?

LiDAR for the corridor from Delaware to North New Jersey connecting military and civil sUAS infrastructure (There are multiple corrdidors planned that are easily Googled. One is for the organization that gave our department a grant to purchase drone equipment). I would want my drones to have the best resolution, most recently updated DEM uploaded to them when operating in this corridor
Mapping or mining cell data or seeing if drones can be the network
Radiation background scan (Which they did with helicopters in Atlantic City after 911 in support of a Miss America Pagaent
High resolution gravity data similar to GravD (GravD has been complete in NJ for some time though)
Mapping some other electromagnetic energy for reasons I can't come up with, but I'm no scientist

New Jersey makes a great test area. We have it all.

Sprawling Urban
Sprawling Suburban
High Density Traffic
Land, Coast, Oceans, Rivers, Mountains (North corners, ok not really mountains)
Farmland
Unpopulated Pine Barrens

And when you say your state does too, ours is crammed into a tiny little state not too far from some important places.

I find the whole thing not very mysterious at all in terms of advanced drones doing testing, research and other tasks. It is only mysterious that there is a big deal to play it off like nothing is happening at all or it was all our imagination.

Chip · Feb 14, 2025

jaja6009 said:
When I saw the lights at the height of the sightings they seemed like they were flying a mapping grid. I have ~200 drone mapping hours under my belt including thermal at night so after staring at my drones and the mystery lights, yeah they seemed like they were flying a grid pattern. My question is what were they mapping?

LiDAR for the corridor from Delaware to North New Jersey connecting military and civil sUAS infrastructure (There are multiple corrdidors planned that are easily Googled. One is for the organization that gave our department a grant to purchase drone equipment). I would want my drones to have the best resolution, most recently updated DEM uploaded to them when operating in this corridor

Mapping or mining cell data or seeing if drones can be the network

Radiation background scan (Which they did with helicopters in Atlantic City after 911 in support of a Miss America Pagaent

High resolution gravity data similar to GravD (GravD has been complete in NJ for some time though)

Mapping some other electromagnetic energy for reasons I can't come up with, but I'm no scientist

New Jersey makes a great test area. We have it all.

Sprawling Urban

Sprawling Suburban

High Density Traffic

Land, Coast, Oceans, Rivers, Mountains (North corners, ok not really mountains)

Farmland

Unpopulated Pine Barrens

And when you say your state does too, ours is crammed into a tiny little state not too far from some important places.

I find the whole thing not very mysterious at all in terms of advanced drones doing testing, research and other tasks. It is only mysterious that there is a big deal to play it off like nothing is happening at all or it was all our imagination.

Great to have firsthand information from experienced drone pilot there. Why New Jersey is interesting question and you make some very good points.

I've been doing some follow up research on this company Clandestine Materials Detection (CMD) and this Gamma Neutron Activation Analysis. I had no idea the FAA dabbles in this kind of stuff. Is this what was going on over New Jersey in December 2024? I don't know but my there are some interesting coincidences.

CMD Worldwide

Clandestine Materials Detection, Inc. (CMD) is a spin-out of the University of Wisconsin-Madison that has developed a patented approach to detecting concealed explosives that is safe to humans. The technology can identify chemical signatures of devices such as landmines, improvised explosive...

www.cmdworldwide.com

From the Federal register: The UAS will be equipped with a neutron source and gamma detector that uses Gamma Neutron Activation Analysis.

From Clandestine Materials Detection (CMD), Inc.: CMD has developed a novel approach to detecting concealed explosives that removes the potential loss of human life from the detection equation. The technology can identify nuclear signatures of devices such as landmines, IEDs, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, and dirty bombs through proprietary nuclear detection and signature analysis methods. This unique technology set enables standoff distances of up to 1 km distances and scanning of large areas quickly and accurately, even without line of sight and under up to 1 meter of water or soil."

"The system is comprised of (1) a vehicle containing a small conventional electrical power source and power beaming equipment, (2) a drone that uses beamed RF power from the vehicle to produce neutrons in a proprietary Red Rover low-weight, fusion neutron generator that interrogates the searchable area, (3) one or more detection drones that can detect gamma rays produced when explosive materials are present, and (4) a simple user interface for location analysis and creating an actionable remediation plan. The power relay components, if needed, can be mounted on various mobile units and configurations as required (more altitude, tree cover, surf, etc.)."

The Red Rover System in standard setup with (red arrows) showing neutron bombardment and (green arrows) showing gamma ray spectrum emitted after neutron activation of explosive components.

NOTE: The drones can run indefinitely on RF power emitted by mobile ground source. There is one mother ship with neutron generator which is accompanied by smaller neutron generator and detector drones about 6 foot in diameter.

What is Gamma Neutron Activation Analysis?

Neutron activation analysis is a method for measuring the chemical elements in a material. Simply stated, NAA involves converting a small number of atoms in a sample into radioactive atoms. When these radioactive atoms decay, they emit unique radiation that identifies the atoms, like a fingerprint identifies a person. Further, by carefully counting the number of radiation particles emitted from the sample, we can determine the number of atoms that are in the sample. Thus, NAA tells us both the identity (qualitative) and the amount (quantitative) of an element in a sample.

GNAA involves bombarding a sample with neutrons, which cause the sample's atoms to become radioactive. The radioactive atoms then emit gamma rays, which are detected and analyzed to identify the elements present in the sample.

While GNAA itself is a powerful analytical technique, exposure to the radiation used in the process can pose health risks like...

Maybe one reason to keep it clandestine?

Droning on and on... · Feb 15, 2025

And upon bombardment the return signal comes back "human being" and the neutron generation becomes a lawsuit generator

See: Neutron Bomb

Chip · Feb 15, 2025

Droning on and on... said:
And upon bombardment the return signal comes back "human being" and the neutron generation becomes a lawsuit generator

See: Neutron Bomb

In this diagram depicting generally how the technology works, I think your street, your house, and everyone inside your house would indeed be part of the "Materials" being "interrogated" by neutrons if the aircraft was flying overhead. Yes, I thought of the nuclear neutron bomb which kills people but leaves all buildings standing. So, does that mean there are good neutrons and bad neutrons or are all of them created and absorbed by human tissue equally?

Chip · Feb 15, 2025

"Target Nucleus" may suggest focused neutron bombardment.

Chip · Feb 15, 2025

A patent application was filed by researchers at the University of Wisconsin in 2016.

Abstract
A system for detecting clandestine materials employs a lightweight neutron-source that can be mounted to a remotely controlled mobile platform for flexible and high standoff scanning of possibly explosive materials. In one embodiment, aerial drones hold the neutron-source and detectors for highly flexible remote scanning.
Application US15/018,268 events 2016-02-08

Chip · Feb 15, 2025

hank970 · Feb 16, 2025

The drones were sampling sauteed onion ions to pinpoint White Castle outlets. I could eat a dozen now if there were a White Castle anywhere near where I live. The closest, I think, is about a day and half's drive.

Chip · Feb 16, 2025

hank970 said:
The drones were sampling sauteed onion ions to pinpoint White Castle outlets. I could eat a dozen now if there were a White Castle anywhere near where I live. The closest, I think, is about a day and half's drive.

My apology but I think you may have mixed up the threads. In the other thread, that guy said it was Zipline testing out its delivery drones. I said if that is true, then I cannot wait to see how these drone deliveries work out in Seattle where Panera Bread is starting them this summer. I checked Panera Bread's menu for you and confirmed they do not serve sauteed onions BUT I can personally recommend the Bistro French onion soup. Might that work for you in a pinch? I would have slight concern the bread bowl may get soggy during drone delivery which may compromise the sourdough experience but it is what it is.

Chip · Feb 27, 2025

The $1 billion in tax hikes that New Jersey Governor Murphy wants.

February 27, 2025

As part of his new budget proposal, New Jersey Gov. Murphy wants to raise taxes and fees on alcohol, cannabis, cigarettes, drones, online gambling and more. The state must have spent millions responding and reacting to the FAA's secret drone research. Seems odd to me to lump drones together with drugs, alcohol and gambling for tax purposes but maybe that is best way to package it in New Jersey given the debacle there.

https://www.njspotlightnews.org/2025/02/gov-phil-murphy-seeks-higher-alcohol-cannabis-cigarettes-drones-online-gambling-taxes/

Chip · Feb 27, 2025

jaja6009 · Feb 27, 2025

Chip said:
The $1 billion in tax hikes that New Jersey Governor Murphy wants.
February 27, 2025

As part of his new budget proposal, New Jersey Gov. Murphy wants to raise taxes and fees on alcohol, cannabis, cigarettes, drones, online gambling and more. The state must have spent millions responding and reacting to the FAA's secret drone research. Seems odd to me to lump drones together with drugs, alcohol and gambling for tax purposes but maybe that is best way to package it in New Jersey given the debacle there.

https://www.njspotlightnews.org/2025/02/gov-phil-murphy-seeks-higher-alcohol-cannabis-cigarettes-drones-online-gambling-taxes/

Drones are an easy target I guess. Drone users don't have the numbers to stop any tax through their representation. No non-drone person is going to care if drones get taxed since it is a fringe hobby or being run by commercial/public entities with the money to pay said tax.

It also does not help with the past drone madness.

I would bet that a drone tax makes the budget, hopefully it only targets hyper expensive, purely professional use drones and not prosumer/consumer and DJI/Autel type Enterprise drones.