Yes. Very strange though. I use the same strobes in NM, and I don't get anything like that visual range, even with the white ones, let alone the red and green.
FAA investigating near-miss involving drone over Falls
- Thread starter jeplane
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Yes. Very strange though. I use the same strobes in NM, and I don't get anything like that visual range, even with the white ones, let alone the red and green.
AMann
Well-Known Member
Sorry, we both misunderstood. The ArcII’s are very bright and I have not pushed mine to the limit. You mentioned you could see orientation, so I am assuming you have color CREE strobes on as well? I have them also, but can’t see them nearly as well as the ArcII whitenones. Hence my question.
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All are on the arms. Two whites facing rear and a red on one front arm with a green on the other. I’m not saying it jumps out of the sky at me when at those distances, except maybe at dawn or dusk. No apology needed and no offense taken. I have even had to demonstrate to my son... Anyway, Fly On!!
dronerdave
Well-Known Member
Same for me. I do only have a 4 white strobe on the back and one on the bottom facing forward. Green and red are on the sides and those are far less visible to my eyes. After about 3000-4000' feet out, if I look down it is somewhat difficult to re-find my MP. I can see it to just at a mile in the best conditions but once I look away I have to use binoculars to reacquire VLOS. Could be my eyes are not to par. At night or dusk it looks like a full size AC. More on topic I do wonder if a full size aircraft would actually see my strobes in full sun. So many different factors involved.
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Jaysjob
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Ok. I think this is going off on a tangent here but there is no way I can see my drone at 400’ at anything approaching these distances. Yes I have strobes. And a reflective skin. But the fact is the farther away the drone is, the lower it is on the horizon. Not only can I lose sight but also contact with the drone with the trees and towers. Idk. I think I’d like to meet you IRL and have you be my spotter! I sure could cover more area than I’ve been doing.
dronerdave
Well-Known Member
400???. At 400 feet in clear skies I see my drone without strobes. How I see my drones strobes at 3000' out is usually with adverted vision. To actually get an idea of the travel direction about the only thing I can tell is if it's moving diagonally to me. I can't tell if it's moving away or coming at me unless I actually look at the screen.
The statement was "at 400’ at anything approaching these distances", not at a distance of 400 ft.
Earthman
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That is a very incriminating video for the PIC of the drone, and troubling for the rest of drone users and pilots of manned aircraft.
There is a lot going on in the video. Apparently, neither pilot saw or tried to avoid the other aircraft. The helicopter appears to be climbing relatively fast, passed within 10’s of feet of the relatively stationary drone, and passed through the drone’s altitude within seconds. I assume the PIC of the drone was functionally flying FPV while framing a shot or observing as a single opp without an observer. The drone was facing away from the approaching manned aircraft and I assume the PIC was looking down at the video feed and never saw the approach of manned aircraft. Even if the drone PIC or an observer was looking at the drone LOS and saw the approaching helicopter, it would have been very difficult if not impossible for him/her to determine that the two aircraft were on a collision course. Under these circumstances, if the drone PIC were to try to take evasive action, he would have just as likely flown into the path of the approaching helicopter. It’s hard to tell from the video, but I have to wonder if the drone was higher than 400’ AGL.
I was curious and surprised to see that AirMap appears to “green light” sUAS flights within the area in which this event took place. Even for recreational flying, AirMap appears not to post any restrictions/warnings. What’s up with that??
There is a lot going on in the video. Apparently, neither pilot saw or tried to avoid the other aircraft. The helicopter appears to be climbing relatively fast, passed within 10’s of feet of the relatively stationary drone, and passed through the drone’s altitude within seconds. I assume the PIC of the drone was functionally flying FPV while framing a shot or observing as a single opp without an observer. The drone was facing away from the approaching manned aircraft and I assume the PIC was looking down at the video feed and never saw the approach of manned aircraft. Even if the drone PIC or an observer was looking at the drone LOS and saw the approaching helicopter, it would have been very difficult if not impossible for him/her to determine that the two aircraft were on a collision course. Under these circumstances, if the drone PIC were to try to take evasive action, he would have just as likely flown into the path of the approaching helicopter. It’s hard to tell from the video, but I have to wonder if the drone was higher than 400’ AGL.
I was curious and surprised to see that AirMap appears to “green light” sUAS flights within the area in which this event took place. Even for recreational flying, AirMap appears not to post any restrictions/warnings. What’s up with that??
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Earthman
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From elsewhere on the web: “Reckless endangerment is a crime consisting of acts that create a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. The accused person isn't required to intend the resulting or potential harm, but must have acted in a way that showed a disregard for the foreseeable consequences of the actions. ”
Unfortunately, the drone PIC may be facing a fine and/or jail time. He’s very fortunate that there was no collision. Perhaps we all are.
It will be surprising if the FAA lets this go as a “lessons learned” situation. However, lots of PICs of manned aircraft make mistakes too, and the FAA encourages them to self-report as lessons learned to be shared with the flying community.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
No - that's just the video edited to run forwards then backwards at various speeds. The drone is stationary throughout the encounter.
zinnware
Active Member
I calculate that the drone was flying well over 1,000 feet above the ground level. I base this from the height of the Seneca Niagara Casino's height of 357 feet (Seen on the left side of the video as the helecopter passes by). The drone is flying 3 to 3 1/2 times higher than the casino. This is a big no-no in itself.
ChrisOutdoors
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Lots of things wrong in this video but my contribution is this.
Maintaining legal altitude > VLOS.
If you maintain legal altitude theres almost no danger to aircraft. Fixed wing pilots are VERY uncomfortable at or near 1000' unless landing and rotary almost NEVER drop below 500' unless they're over a lake/ocean. Altitude is life when you're the PIC.
Personally I feel VLOS is an outdated law regarding UAS. Combine FPV googles + HD feed out to 3-4 miles and you have greater situational awareness than ANY VFR pilot. As long as you maintain that altitude restriction VLOS becomes unnecessary IMO and would have avoided this close call.
Maintaining legal altitude > VLOS.
If you maintain legal altitude theres almost no danger to aircraft. Fixed wing pilots are VERY uncomfortable at or near 1000' unless landing and rotary almost NEVER drop below 500' unless they're over a lake/ocean. Altitude is life when you're the PIC.
Personally I feel VLOS is an outdated law regarding UAS. Combine FPV googles + HD feed out to 3-4 miles and you have greater situational awareness than ANY VFR pilot. As long as you maintain that altitude restriction VLOS becomes unnecessary IMO and would have avoided this close call.
You absolutely do not have good situational awareness with FPV - your visual field of view is less than 90°. In VFR flight you should be scanning far more than that. Additionally, in VFR flight conditions with manned aircraft there are two opportunities for collision avoidance – both pilots will be watching. However, there is a much lower probability that a manned aircraft pilot will see a small drone.
With all due respect I think you're completely wrong. Would you be willing to fly as PIC of a manned aircraft if you could only see 90deg (45 from center in each direction)? Imagine having to turn the aircraft to see left & right.... FPV is just a pinch better than flying BLIND as you have greatly reduced Situational Awareness (SA).
As for flying less than 1000' AGL I can promise you we do it a lot more than many realize and do it safely. Think about more than just Commercial Aircraft and your Leer Jets etc. What about push planes.... paramotors, MediVac Helo, Utility Inspections. That is a LOT of reason for MANNED aircraft to be under 1000' and that's why the FARs allow this to be done legally and before our sUAS safely.
ChrisOutdoors
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I would trade the downsides of VFR SA in a cockpit vs UAS any day.
The ability to turn on a dime at any moment and see around you is far superior than the visual limitations akin to VFR cockpit flight. Especially when wearing HD googles that move the camera with your head.
The VAST majority of aircraft do no fly below 1000' and rotary below 500'. That's precisely why maintaining less than 401' will keep you statistically safe.
I'd never flaunt or promote VLOSS violatons but with today's tech I understand why many, if not most, folks on this forum and the UAS community also agree it's a complete joke of a law. It's unrealistic and outdated. The only time it's a good practice is when you're in heavy air traffic areas near large metropolitan areas, which is a small % of the continental US.
Except I've never seen a flight record where anyone spent the flight continually spinning around to scan the sky. That's just not happening, especially with all the dedicated FPV systems locked looking forwards. Now if the pilot's FPV system could watch a full 360° without turning the aircraft, combined with ADS-B, then that would be different. No one is doing that though.
Statistically favorable (I think you mean probabalistically), though getting probabalistically worse as the number of sUAS flying increases, is not a justification for pilots blundering around outside VLOS without acceptable situational awareness.
So you think beyond VLOS shouldn't be promoted with today's tech (agreed) but you think the VLOS requirement is already outdated and a joke? That is completely self-contradictory.
ChrisOutdoors
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I am
Is that a word?
No it's not. To violate a law and flaunt it is not the same thing as disagreeing in the law; those are 2 different things.
My point is I find it hard to believe most of you are maintaining VLOS. Given what a PIA it is to keep track of where the UAS is, especially when you're out a 1/2 mile or greater, there's no way most people are abiding by the law; it's not feasible. That's precisely why altitude > VLOS. Any argument against that is not being honest with the reality of a modern UAS; my last post on this topic.
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