Flying my Air 2S ... and another pilot launching his Mavic 3 at the same time! A discussion on deconfliction

[tlyons]

I'm on vacation this week in Nova Scotia, and yesterday we did a visit to Peggy's Cove, a popular tourist spot where there is a famous and often photographed lighthouse amongst the rocks.

As I was prepping my Air 2S for a flight to catch some imagery of the lighthouse and area, I heard the distinctive "whizzzz" of another drone already launching.

A guy about 30' away on a pedestrian platform decided to launch his Mavic 3 Pro from there and do the same thing.

Everybody is different, but if it were me, and I saw someone else setting up to fly, I might ask some deconfliction questions first. I didn't notice him because he was behind me, but he clearly would have seen me setting up ... I had the landing pad out, etc.

I decided there was plenty of visibility, and a feature I could do some video of first before I figured he'd be done at the lighthouse then I could move over there without a risk of collision. So I launched and followed a carefully planned flight route out to some rocks with no people being oveflown.

Almost guaranteed the other pilot was not licenced, or if he was he was completely ignoring the rules, as he overflow numerous people on his way to the lighthouse.

At one point I considered talking to him to see what his plans were as I was anxious to avoid a collision. Instead I just did "see & avoid" and made sure to keep an eye on his drone's movements while positioning mine 100m or more away from his and selecting a different altitude.

I wish drones had some anticollision technology, but I get that the added radio noise and added weight of that equipment would be less desirable.

As some precipitation started we were both anxious to land our drones and pack them away, which again led to another high risk moment, but I routed my drone well away from him and the numerous people that he was near anyway, so it was no issue (for me... he broke several laws however).

What are your thoughts? Have you ever had another pilot flying near you and did you take any time to discuss your intentions to avoid flying in eachother's planned routes etc? I guess I'm just happy he wasn't trying to chase my drone down or do anything dangerous while I had mine up, but I'm wondering if I should have done more to talk to them to encourage safer flying. The fact that he was ok with flying right over people sort of suggests that he wasn't going to take any advice from me anyway.

The other person was in the air first? Then you took off knowing they were flying just 30' from your takeoff point? Isn't the burden on you to work something out? Since distracting a pilot in flight is a problem, perhaps you were obligated to wait or move far enough away to not be an issue.

To be frank, if there was a collision and you chose to launch within 30' of someone already in the air, you're clearly at fault and violating the basic rules of not interfering with other aircraft. But I wasn't there.

 

[tlyons]

Oh, you can fly over houses, cars etc in Canada no problem. Just not people who aren't in a house, car etc.

I have my UK drone pilot permit too, a Flyer ID etc, and the UK rules state occupied houses and cars count as people for the purposes of overflight.

At Peggy's Cove, NS, where I was flying in relation to this post, MANY tourists were walking on and over the rocks and paths from the parking lot, so overflying exposed people was a distinct risk and does violate the rules here. A 595g drone falling on someone from 20m or 30m AGL would certainly cause an injury and I think that's why.

The rules are stated on this Canadian govt web site: Choosing the right drone for advanced operations

A Mavic 3 is "Manufacturer RPAS safety assurance" compliant to fly as close as 5m horizontally from unassociated people. Were you directly in line with the other person's flight to have a valid judgement of whether this was true? How do you know if the other person was eligible for "advanced operations" or not?

 

[BetterBizWorks]

In the Future, speak up about your intentions if there is another drone flying to avoid collisions. Coordinate altitude and direction. Cooperation between pilots is key. If he was up first its up to you to let the other pilot know you're going up. Come pilots like drivers are inconsiderate and there isn;t much you can do about it. He may have seen you and decided to launch first. I usually say will be flying at 2-300 feet on the east side so you know. I'll let you know if I change. When coming down yell out landing. Set the example for other pilots.

 

[pommy]

Just one? I was shooting some whale footage yesterday. There were at least 8 drones up in the air, maybe more. All of the operators were unknown to each other - and we didn’t speak much as we were focused on flying/recording. We were all stood within metres of each other on a small headland.

This happens a lot where I live, especially whale season, never had an issue. Some tourists with the “mini” type drones came up and whizzed around the headland right in front of us all

Screen shot as the site won’t allow my image to be uploaded (too large).

 

[baddog]

I'm on vacation this week in Nova Scotia, and yesterday we did a visit to Peggy's Cove, a popular tourist spot where there is a famous and often photographed lighthouse amongst the rocks.

As I was prepping my Air 2S for a flight to catch some imagery of the lighthouse and area, I heard the distinctive "whizzzz" of another drone already launching.

A guy about 30' away on a pedestrian platform decided to launch his Mavic 3 Pro from there and do the same thing.

Everybody is different, but if it were me, and I saw someone else setting up to fly, I might ask some deconfliction questions first. I didn't notice him because he was behind me, but he clearly would have seen me setting up ... I had the landing pad out, etc.

I decided there was plenty of visibility, and a feature I could do some video of first before I figured he'd be done at the lighthouse then I could move over there without a risk of collision. So I launched and followed a carefully planned flight route out to some rocks with no people being oveflown.

Almost guaranteed the other pilot was not licenced, or if he was he was completely ignoring the rules, as he overflow numerous people on his way to the lighthouse.

At one point I considered talking to him to see what his plans were as I was anxious to avoid a collision. Instead I just did "see & avoid" and made sure to keep an eye on his drone's movements while positioning mine 100m or more away from his and selecting a different altitude.

I wish drones had some anticollision technology, but I get that the added radio noise and added weight of that equipment would be less desirable.

As some precipitation started we were both anxious to land our drones and pack them away, which again led to another high risk moment, but I routed my drone well away from him and the numerous people that he was near anyway, so it was no issue (for me... he broke several laws however).

What are your thoughts? Have you ever had another pilot flying near you and did you take any time to discuss your intentions to avoid flying in eachother's planned routes etc? I guess I'm just happy he wasn't trying to chase my drone down or do anything dangerous while I had mine up, but I'm wondering if I should have done more to talk to them to encourage safer flying. The fact that he was ok with flying right over people sort of suggests that he wasn't going to take any advice from me anyway.

What are the rules in Canada about traversing over people? i.e. flying over people but not hovering over people.

In the US you can now traverse over people but not hover over them. No sustained flight over open-air assemblies either.

• The small unmanned aircraft does not maintain sustained flight over any person unless that person is participating directly in the operation or located under a covered structure or inside a stationary vehicle that can provide reasonable protection from a falling small unmanned aircraft.

 

[rjwmorrell]

Currently, it's 30m (100ft) away from people. No exemption for brief overflight, though I doubt anybody would press the matter. That's basic operations with a drone 250g or over. You can fly over or within 30m of people if you have an Advanced certificate, and have a compliant drone.

For drones under 250g, there is no overflight limitation. The rule is you may not endanger persons or aircraft.

 

[kiley]

Well, it's the rule in Canada. I can't speak to the Philippines rules.

The rule states you can fly over people, you just can't hover or repeatedly fly back and forth over them. It's the same with ground traffic.

 

[lmh]

What are the rules in Canada about traversing over people? i.e. flying over people but not hovering over people.

In the US you can now traverse over people but not hover over them. No sustained flight over open-air assemblies either.

• The small unmanned aircraft does not maintain sustained flight over any person unless that person is participating directly in the operation or located under a covered structure or inside a stationary vehicle that can provide reasonable protection from a falling small unmanned aircraft.

The paragraph you quote is from Part 107.125 and applies to Category 3 operations. Category 3 operations require a specifically approved Category 3 drones, which the ones in the subject thread aren't. For the drones we're discussing, (uncategorized) Part 107.39 applies and says;
No person may operate a small unmanned aircraft over a human being unless—
(a) That human being is directly participating in the operation of the small unmanned aircraft;
(b) That human being is located under a covered structure or inside a stationary vehicle that can provide reasonable protection from a falling small unmanned aircraft; or
(c) The operation meets the requirements of at least one of the operational categories specified in subpart D of this part.

And the FAA has clarified what "Over" means;
“‘Over’ refers to the flight of the small unmanned aircraft directly over any part of a person. For example, a small UAS that hovers directly over a person’s head, shoulders, or extended arms or legs would be an operation over people. Similarly, if a person is lying down, for example at a beach, an operation over that person’s torso or toes would also constitute an operation over people. A flight where a small UAS flies over any part of any person, regardless of how long the flight is over the person, would be considered an operation over people.”

Thus, "traversing over people" is not permitted unless it fulfills the requirement for categorized operation.

 

[lmh]

The rule states you can fly over people, you just can't hover or repeatedly fly back and forth over them. It's the same with ground traffic.

This is only true for specific operations utilizing a category 1-4 drone which the Air 2S and Mavic 3 aren't. See my other reply on this.

 

[AMann]

For a good place to go to see a large group of people flying cooperatively and having safe fun while doing it, go to a model airplane site, or a popular ridge for RC gliders.

Personally, it sounds like his was up first, so for me courtesy would come to play also as to when to take my turn like you did, especially if both of us were trying to fly and get photos of the same location. It’s good and polite that you chose to move over. It also sounds like you were the one being cautious, so that’s a great thing!

 

[truckdude]

I'm on vacation this week in Nova Scotia, and yesterday we did a visit to Peggy's Cove, a popular tourist spot where there is a famous and often photographed lighthouse amongst the rocks.

As I was prepping my Air 2S for a flight to catch some imagery of the lighthouse and area, I heard the distinctive "whizzzz" of another drone already launching.

A guy about 30' away on a pedestrian platform decided to launch his Mavic 3 Pro from there and do the same thing.

Everybody is different, but if it were me, and I saw someone else setting up to fly, I might ask some deconfliction questions first. I didn't notice him because he was behind me, but he clearly would have seen me setting up ... I had the landing pad out, etc.

I decided there was plenty of visibility, and a feature I could do some video of first before I figured he'd be done at the lighthouse then I could move over there without a risk of collision. So I launched and followed a carefully planned flight route out to some rocks with no people being oveflown.

Almost guaranteed the other pilot was not licenced, or if he was he was completely ignoring the rules, as he overflow numerous people on his way to the lighthouse.

At one point I considered talking to him to see what his plans were as I was anxious to avoid a collision. Instead I just did "see & avoid" and made sure to keep an eye on his drone's movements while positioning mine 100m or more away from his and selecting a different altitude.

I wish drones had some anticollision technology, but I get that the added radio noise and added weight of that equipment would be less desirable.

As some precipitation started we were both anxious to land our drones and pack them away, which again led to another high risk moment, but I routed my drone well away from him and the numerous people that he was near anyway, so it was no issue (for me... he broke several laws however).

What are your thoughts? Have you ever had another pilot flying near you and did you take any time to discuss your intentions to avoid flying in eachother's planned routes etc? I guess I'm just happy he wasn't trying to chase my drone down or do anything dangerous while I had mine up, but I'm wondering if I should have done more to talk to them to encourage safer flying. The fact that he was ok with flying right over people sort of suggests that he wasn't going to take any advice from me anyway.

Just a heads up about Peggy’s Cove, the sea gulls there a very hostile towards drones for some reason, I live close by and visit often, saw three attacks last year, 5 this year. They appear to come after them as soon as they are spotted, I was going to fly my mini 3pro there once and had a very similar experience as this story tells about but I choose to let the other guy fly and land before I lifted off, he was knocked into a large water hole after about 4 mins in the air. Glad I let him go first.

 

[akdrone]

Is it that strict, really?

In the US operations over people is prohibited without following special rules, equipment, and obtaining a waiver, but transitioning over people briefly on the way to a mission site is allowed.

Is that not the case in Canada?

I would challenge you to cite the FAA regulation that provides that you can fly over people, even transitioning if your drone is not officially Categorized to do that (and none of DJI's current drones are so categorized). I won't assume you are wrong since I'm not an expert but it is my understanding that you are not allowed to fly over people, period. If i'm wrong can you point me to the regs that make your point? This page by the FAA makes no such reference and all the references that discuss being able to fly over people refer to Categorized drones... https://www.faa.gov/uas/commercial_operators/operations_over_people

 

[akdrone]

In my opinion if you launch after somebody else, since only you can look forward it is your responsibility to stay out of the other pilot's drone. Somewhat...period . Both of you should have approached the other person but neither of you did so he launched first and can't look back so at that point it's up to you to not interfere with him. That's how I see it.

 

[Droning on and on...]

I would challenge you to cite the FAA regulation that provides that you can fly over people,

You're right it's not. I mistakenly thought that when I wrote it in this thread, but since then found myself that it wasn't, and have been arguing the other (correct) side of this since.

Good catch

 

[Kuiper Denizen]

All you had to do was walk over say “hey I’m flying (or want to fly) around X Spot at around this altitude just to give you the heads up”.

I was searching for a suggestion similar to this, but need to add what I would think is obvious: Both fliers had an equal opportunity to approach the other and discuss how to accommodate each other. Neither did.

The writer reporting this event assumed, without an attempt to learn differently, that the other pilot was not behaving in a friendly, conversable way when he, himself, did not reach out either.

If the other pilot‘s behavior indicated that he was a boorish lout who probably wasn’t properly licensed or knowledgeable of basic courtesy, that other pilot could well be making the same assumption of the writer.

We do this all the time, myself included, when we make the judgement that the other person is rude and unapproachable for doing exactly what we’re doing at the same time.

Don’t assume that you’ll be rebuffed if you initiate a conversation, even with a simple, “Good afternoon. How‘re you doing?”

My experience has most always been that the other person is just as friendly as I am, answering my smile with a smile.

If the other person chooses to be rude, perhaps then one might become judgmental. You gave him or her the chance to define his or her sociability and respect for others.

Now you get to define yours.

 

[Hermey]

My understanding is that flying over people, even transitioning, is only permitted under the rules for categorized drones, which the Mavic 3 pro and Air 2s aren't. Am I missing something? Of course you can fly over stationary cars and people in buildings but not people outside or in moving vehicles without a categorized drone.

I would think it could be pretty hard, if one is flying over a city in any manner, to be sure not to fly over a single moving vehicle or any people outside....unless you have the camera pointed down to see what is below.