How far away can you see your Mini?

[Rchawks]

Says it all ?

 

[Cobra193]

If you've completely lost orientation, you can put a drone into a constant banked turn, and after a circle or two, when you've seen the limits of the back-and-forth motion, you should be able to imagine that circle from above and fairly accurately tell the drone's direction at any point. After getting reoriented, you can leave the turn when you're headed the way you want to go.

These are all techniques to get you home, but none meet the requirements of VLOS which are defined clearly by the FAA in US and I’m sure by the Euro authority, which is what I’m talking about.

The point of we all take our eyes off our drones when looking at the screen (even briefly)… The FAA addresses this with the use of a VO.

 

[Cobra193]

Here is what I found for the US regs:

§ 107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.

(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:
(1) Know the unmanned aircraft’s location;
(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft’s attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;
(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and
(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.
(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:
(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or
(2) A visual observer.

Thanks for saving me the trouble finding that..
And that is not open to interpretation and while some that arent familiar with the above refs are not 107 pilots, many ARE, and that’s a problem.

 

[RogerDH]

Thanks for saving me the trouble finding that..
And that is not open to interpretation and while some that arent familiar with the above refs are not 107 pilots, many ARE, and that’s a problem.

Apparently, there is room for different interpretations, since yours is different from mine. When the regulation says I "must be able to see the unmanned aircraft," I don't take that to mean I must not ever look at the screen. When it says I must be able to "determine... the direction of flight," I claim I can do that if I can see it at all, and since the regulation does not say I must "visually see the orientation without having to do any of that," I believe I'm compliant.

Of course, what matters is the interpretation used by our respective local authorities. Fortunately, I haven't heard of any attempt by the FAA to enforce the interpretation you're assuming -- that would put quite a damper on drone flying.

 

[cgmaxed]

I run with one of these on the under side, works well even in day light, £17 from Amazon uk. Keeps under the 250gr limit still, just. Lol.View attachment 131332

In the USA, people of this forum gave me a lot of hell for using "lights" to see my drone. They said, "you can't maintain situational awareness, when your drone is too far. You also can't know the orientation of your drone". They really expressed a lot of anger toward me. They were in shock that I would skirt the VLOS rule with a light.

 

[SkittleBob]

In the USA, people of this forum gave me a lot of hell for using "lights" to see my drone. They said, "you can't maintain situational awareness, when your drone is too far. You also can't know the orientation of your drone". They really expressed a lot of anger toward me. They were in shock that I would skirt the VLOS rule with a light.

I don't see anything in the rules saying you can't use lights, but then I'm interpreting the requirement to have my sight unaided to be without binoculars, etc. as it specifically says you can use glasses.

If you had the light your end (it would have to be some light), then clearly you wouldn't be seeing it unaided. ?

 

[Cobra193]

Apparently, there is room for different interpretations, since yours is different from mine. When the regulation says I "must be able to see the unmanned aircraft," I don't take that to mean I must not ever look at the screen. When it says I must be able to "determine... the direction of flight," I claim I can do that if I can see it at all, and since the regulation does not say I must "visually see the orientation without having to do any of that," I believe I'm compliant.

Of course, what matters is the interpretation used by our respective local authorities. Fortunately, I haven't heard of any attempt by the FAA to enforce the interpretation you're assuming -- that would put quite a damper on drone flying.

Mine is not an interpretation. It’s the facts as spelled out in the below refs. I’m not sure where the confusion is.

§ 107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.

(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:
(1) Know the unmanned aircraft’s location;
(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft’s attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;
(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and
(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.
(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:
(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or
(2) A visual observer.

 

[RogerDH]

Mine is not an interpretation. It’s the facts as spelled out in the below refs. I’m not sure where the confusion is.

§ 107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.

(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:
(1) Know the unmanned aircraft’s location;
(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft’s attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;
(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and
(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.
(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:
(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or
(2) A visual observer.

Probably not worth repeating, but if I am "able to see the unmanned aircraft," then I can "determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight" by observing how it responds to controls. I would agree, however, that anyone who cannot do that is in violation of the regulation, and really should keep their drone close enough to directly see which way it's pointed.

 

[Malcx]

Probably not worth repeating, but if I am "able to see the unmanned aircraft," then I can "determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight" by observing how it responds to controls. I would agree, however, that anyone who cannot do that is in violation of the regulation, and really should keep their drone close enough to directly see which way it's pointed.

Being highly pedantic here I know but:

"observing how it responds to controls" is not Throughout the entire flight

If you press forward on the stick, and the AC appears not to move, is it coming towards you or flying away from you? Yes you can rotate the AC to work it out but for a short period of time you were not able to "Determine the unmanned aircraft’s ... direction of flight;"

99.999% of the time that isn't an issue, but when someone does cause an accident these details will be used to slam the pilot as reckless and not following the regulations.

 

[SkittleBob]

Being highly pedantic here I know but:

"observing how it responds to controls" is not Throughout the entire flight

If you press forward on the stick, and the AC appears not to move, is it coming towards you or flying away from you? Yes you can rotate the AC to work it out but for a short period of time you were not able to "Determine the unmanned aircraft’s ... direction of flight;"

99.999% of the time that isn't an issue, but when someone does cause an accident these details will be used to slam the pilot as reckless and not following the regulations.

If you consider VLOS is an ongoing process throughout the flight, you're both right?

 

[RogerDH]

Being highly pedantic here I know but:

"observing how it responds to controls" is not Throughout the entire flight

If you press forward on the stick, and the AC appears not to move, is it coming towards you or flying away from you? Yes you can rotate the AC to work it out but for a short period of time you were not able to "Determine the unmanned aircraft’s ... direction of flight;"

99.999% of the time that isn't an issue, but when someone does cause an accident these details will be used to slam the pilot as reckless and not following the regulations.

If I interpret "able to see" as "in constant visual contact throughout the entire flight" and "determine direction of flight" as "instantly determine," then I'd agree with you. Which is to say, I still disagree . I don't think you're being pedantic; I think you're reading stuff into the regulation that isn't actually there.

On the other hand, I'll immediately agree that the FAA interprets the rule that way when I see the first case of them issuing a citation based on that interpretation.

 

[scro]

For me the words "able to" give some leeway. It doesn't say "must see the aircraft throughout the entire flight..." Glancing down at a screen, or over to an approaching aircraft to determine what you might need to do to avoid it require breaking eye contact with your drone, and that's why the "able to" wording is there. You don't need to maintain eye contact with your drone 100% of the time, but you need to be able to re-establish eye contact at any time during the flight.

 

[RogerDH]

For me the words "able to" give some leeway. It doesn't say "must see the aircraft throughout the entire flight..." Glancing down at a screen, or over to an approaching aircraft to determine what you might need to do to avoid it require breaking eye contact with your drone, and that's why the "able to" wording is there. You don't need to maintain eye contact with your drone 100% of the time, but you need to be able to re-establish eye contact at any time during the flight.

That's the way I read it, but I did a little digging around tonight to see if the FAA has elaborated on the regulation anywhere. The only thing I could find on the FAA site was the admonition to "keep your drone within the visual line of sight." That seems to me to be another missed opportunity to say "keep eye contact with your drone" if that's what they intended.

From discussions elsewhere of 107.31 and the FAA's replies to public comments, I gather that the consensus is that the FAA does not expect pilots to keep constant eye contact with their drones. For one thing, as you say, you're really supposed to be scanning the entire area to "see and avoid" other aircraft, which is the officially stated purpose of the regulation, and they also seem to understand that drone pilots need to look at their screens to do a lot of things.

As for being able to directly see a drone's orientation, the only place I could find on the entire web where this topic was being discussed (okay, at least in the first half-dozen pages of Google results for 3 or 4 queries) was this very thread.

 

[RogerDH]

I don't see anything in the rules saying you can't use lights, but then I'm interpreting the requirement to have my sight unaided to be without binoculars, etc. as it specifically says you can use glasses.

If you had the light your end (it would have to be some light), then clearly you wouldn't be seeing it unaided. ?

Somewhere on the FAA site, I believe I read that you are required to use a light that's visible for 3 miles if you fly during twilight, a half-hour before sunrise or after sunset. (We aren't allowed to fly at night without a waiver, which is hard to get.) But yes, you can put a light on a drone to extend your VLOS distance. (The FAA intentionally doesn't specify a VLOS distance because it depends on so many factors -- you just have to be able to see your drone.)

 

[Cobra193]

Somewhere on the FAA site, I believe I read that you are required to use a light that's visible for 3 miles if you fly during twilight, a half-hour before sunrise or after sunset. (We aren't allowed to fly at night without a waiver, which is hard to get.) But yes, you can put a light on a drone to extend your VLOS distance. (The FAA intentionally doesn't specify a VLOS distance because it depends on so many factors -- you just have to be able to see your drone.)

Again, wrong. The light is required to make it easier for OTHER aircraft to see your small drone, NOT to extend VLOS. Where do you come up with this stuff?

And show me your source that says the FAA ‘intentionally doesn’t specify a VLOS distance Because it depends on so many factors’. They may not give an extact distance, but they are clear in the regs. You can ‘interpret’ all you want but please stop spreading misinformation. People come on here looking for correct info, not incorrect info.

 

[RogerDH]

Again, wrong. The light is required to make it easier for OTHER aircraft to see your small drone, NOT to extend VLOS. Where do you come up with this stuff?

And show me your source that says the FAA ‘intentionally doesn’t specify a VLOS distance Because it depends on so many factors’. They may not give an extact distance, but they are clear in the regs. You can ‘interpret’ all you want but please stop spreading misinformation. People come on here looking for correct info, not incorrect info.

(Sigh) Yes, the requirement for a light during twilight is so that other aircraft can see your drone. Nonetheless, what I actually said was that you CAN put a light on your drone in daylight, which WILL extend the VLOS distance, by the "able to see" definition. What exactly are you saying I got wrong? If you're suggesting that the regulation doesn't allow that, then I'm afraid that you are the one that's wrong.

As for a source for the FAA intentionally not specifying a VLOS distance, and why, here's one, from their replies to public comments:

The proposed rules would not require a maximum boundary for the area within which a pilot can fly a drone, but should it? And if so, what should that limit be? (p76)

No. The rule does not create a strict boundary for operations. The FAA reasons that the line of sight requirement will create a natural boundary for operations. (p210)

Yes, they are pretty "clear in the regs": You must be "able to see" your drone -- a reasonable "natural boundary" which obviously depends on many factors, instead of a fixed limit that would be too far in some circumstance and too short in others. My "interpretation" is also based on knowing that in considering the regulations, tests were done to find maximum VLOS under different conditions, and as should be expected, the results were all over the map. And again, you're accusing me of "spreading misinformation" without even bothering to say what you think I got wrong.

 

[rmns2bseen]

Maybe someone can clear this up for me. Isn't looking at a controller app at all a violation of "at all times" VLOS? If you're going to use, say, DJI Fly, shouldn't you have a spotter with eyes always on the drone?

 

[RogerDH]

Maybe someone can clear this up for me. Isn't looking at a controller app at all a violation of "at all times" VLOS? If you're going to use, say, DJI Fly, shouldn't you have a spotter with eyes always on the drone?

Well, what we've been discussing the past couple of pages is that the rule says "able to see at all times," which is not the same thing as "eyes always on."

 

[rmns2bseen]

Well, what we've been discussing the past couple of pages is that the rule says "able to see at all times," which is not the same thing as "eyes always on."

But then what's the advantage of being able to see it 500 ft away as opposed to seeing its orientation etc via an app when it's 2500 feet away and obscured by a tree line?

 

[RogerDH]

But then what's the advantage of being able to see it 500 ft away as opposed to seeing its orientation etc via an app when it's 2500 feet away and obscured by a tree line?

The stated purpose of the regulation is that you must be able to "see and avoid" other aircraft. There is no FPV or camera system approved by the FAA that will allow you to do that if you can't actually see the drone AND scan the area it's flying in.