Is Authorization needed?

[RCFlyer]

I was about to do some photography under part 107 but ran B4UFLY before I took off. Based on this, do I need to apply for authorization? First time so it's not clear to me. It says I need authorization but I'm only going to fly up to 400 feet agl which is within limits of class e which starts at 700 feet agl.
Hope to get a response today so I can go back and do my aerial photo job tomorrow.
Thanks!

 

[Vic Moss]

KPOU is E2, which means its down to the surface, not at 700'. You'll need LAANC. But it's automatic.

 

[RCFlyer]

KPOU is E2, which means its down to the surface, not at 700'. You'll need LAANC. But it's automatic.

The problem is it doesn't seem that KPOU participates or responds to LAANC. B4UFLY indicated that LAANC was Unavailable. Or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[Vic Moss]

The problem is it doesn't seem that KPOU participates or responds to LAANC. B4UFLY indicated that LAANC was Unavailable. Or am I misunderstanding something?

Need more info. KPOU is LAANC. Are you trying to fly at night as a recreational flyer?

 

[RCFlyer]

Need more info. KPOU is LAANC. Are you trying to fly at night as a recreational flyer?

I'm flying daytime under part 107. Everything I do indicates LAANC is unavailable. What am I doing wrong?

 

[brett8883]

Need more info. KPOU is LAANC. Are you trying to fly at night as a recreational flyer?

Vic I’m pretty sure this is an E2 (correction E4)extension on Class D so it wouldn’t require authorization

 

[brett8883]

I'm flying daytime under part 107. Everything I do indicates LAANC is unavailable. What am I doing wrong?

If flying in the magenta hash, circled in red below, you don’t need authorization. But if you fly in the class D airspace, highlighted in yellow, you do.

 

[Vic Moss]

I'm flying daytime under part 107. Everything I do indicates LAANC is unavailable. What am I doing wrong?

You’re probably outside the controlled airspace.

 

[RCFlyer]

You’re probably outside the controlled airspace.

So if I'm good to go, why did B4UFLY say it was controlled? Thanks Vic and Brett8883.

 

[Vic Moss]

So if I'm good to go, why did B4UFLY say it was controlled? Thanks Vic and Brett8883.

Without knowing the address, it's conjecture on our part.

Go here and put in the address. It will tell you what the airspace classification is.

ArcGIS Web Application

www.arcgis.com

 

[RCFlyer]

Without knowing the address, it's conjecture on our part.

Go here and put in the address. It will tell you what the airspace classification is.

ArcGIS Web Application

www.arcgis.com

This is what it returns below, but it is in the extension area of KPOU.

Class E2 Airspace

Identifier	POU
Name	POUGHKEEPSIE CLASS E2
Description of the Upper Limit Value	AA
Upper Limit Value	-9998
Upper Limit Unit of Measure
Code for the Upper Limit
Description of the Lower Limit Value
Lower Limit Value	0
Lower Limit Unit of Measure	FT
Code for the Lower Limit	SFC
Type Code	CLASS
Local Type	CLASS_E2
Class	E
Military Code	CIV
Name of the Communication Outlet
Level of the Airspace	L
Sector
Onshore	1
Exclusion Area	0
Work Hour Code	NOTAM
Work Hour Remarks	Legal description references NOTAM
Daylight Saving Time Code
GMT Offset
Controlling Agent
City	POUGHKEEPSIE
State	NY
Country
ICAO_ID	KPOU

 

[RCFlyer]

This is what it returns below, but it is in the extension area of KPOU.

Class E2 Airspace

Identifier	POU
Name	POUGHKEEPSIE CLASS E2
Description of the Upper Limit Value	AA
Upper Limit Value	-9998
Upper Limit Unit of Measure
Code for the Upper Limit
Description of the Lower Limit Value
Lower Limit Value	0
Lower Limit Unit of Measure	FT
Code for the Lower Limit	SFC
Type Code	CLASS
Local Type	CLASS_E2
Class	E
Military Code	CIV
Name of the Communication Outlet
Level of the Airspace	L
Sector
Onshore	1
Exclusion Area	0
Work Hour Code	NOTAM
Work Hour Remarks	Legal description references NOTAM
Daylight Saving Time Code
GMT Offset
Controlling Agent
City	POUGHKEEPSIE
State	NY
Country
ICAO_ID	KPOU

I zoomed out and see it's definitely in the extension.

 

[Vic Moss]

I zoomed out and see it's definitely in the extension.

It references a NOTAM. That likely means the airport reverts to E5 (700') or G after tower closes.

But I'm not sure. Sorry.

 

[DoomMeister]

KPOU is a bit out of the ordinary. On a sectional chart the Class E airspace appears to be two E4 extensions to the Class D airspace, but the ArcGIS UAS Facilities Map shows it as one large E2 airspace overlaid by Class D as shown below.


The Chart Supplement for KPOU states that the Class D reverts to Class E when the tower is not manned and this is obviously E2. https://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/14jul2022/ne_241_14JUL2022.pdf

Seems odd that the Class D is covered by LAANC but the Class E (E2) is not. Since the Class D reverts in off hours it may require authorization via DroneZone to get authorization in the Class E.

 

[brett8883]

KPOU is a bit out of the ordinary. On a sectional chart the Class E airspace appears to be two E4 extensions to the Class D airspace, but the ArcGIS UAS Facilities Map shows it as one large E2 airspace overlaid by Class D as shown below.
View attachment 152246

The Chart Supplement for KPOU states that the Class D reverts to Class E when the tower is not manned and this is obviously E2. https://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/14jul2022/ne_241_14JUL2022.pdf

Seems odd that the Class D is covered by LAANC but the Class E (E2) is not. Since the Class D reverts in off hours it may require authorization via DroneZone to get authorization in the Class E.

Now we’re getting into an area where I’m not 100% confident but 99% confident an extension to E2 is still E4 so even if the class D reverts to E2 the extension to the E2 would still be E4 and not require authorization. The Facilities Map is clearly showing that the extension does not require authorization even if it is calling (erroneously?) the whole area E2. You can get authorization to fly in the D (or E2 off hours) just not the extension because it doesn’t require authorization.

Even if I don’t have the why right I’m still confident you can fly in the extensions without authorization.

 

[brett8883]

So if I'm good to go, why did B4UFLY say it was controlled? Thanks Vic and Brett8883.

It is controlled but you don’t actually need authorization to fly in it.

 

[DoomMeister]

Now we’re getting into an area where I’m not 100% confident but 99% confident an extension to E2 is still E4 so even if the class D reverts to E2 the extension to the E2 would still be E4 and not require authorization. The Facilities Map is clearly showing that the extension does not require authorization even if it is calling (erroneously?) the whole area E2. You can get authorization to fly in the D (or E2 off hours) just not the extension because it doesn’t require authorization.

Even if I don’t have the why right I’m still confident you can fly in the extensions without authorization.

Looking at the UAS Facilities Map they are not shown as extensions, but as a contiguous E2 that has Class D during hours that the tower operates.

I’m going to message the FAA UAS helpline and ask for some clarification on this one.

 

[PHZ]

After you get that resolved, it is whole other question as to whether DJI will let you take off. That is Part II. Make sure you log in to your account and find out or apply for their unlock.

 

[brett8883]

Looking at the UAS Facilities Map they are not shown as extensions, but as a contiguous E2 that has Class D during hours that the tower operates.

I’m going to message the FAA UAS helpline and ask for some clarification on this one.

It looks like the facilities map calls all extensions E2 but as you can see from the facilities map there are no authorization boxes in the extensions indicating that no authorization is required.

Even if this airspace didn’t participate in LAANC but required authorization there would be authorization boxes which is not the case here. Furthermore, the vfr chart clearly indicates the extensions by the blue dashed line segragating the airspace. The charts are what we are suppose to go off of and the facilities map is just there for reference.

Part 107.41 reads

“No person may operate a small unmanned aircraft in Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from Air Traffic Control (ATC).”

The dashed blue line indicates a segregation of the airspace, therefore, the airspace in the extensions are not “designated for an airport” and therefore do not require authorization under part 107.

The FAA put together this very helpful slide to explain Class E airspace types and when authorization is needed.

https://www.faa.gov/uas/resources/events_calendar/archive/2019_uas_symposium/media/How_To_Understand_and_Operate_in_Class_E.pdf

@sar104 feel free to make any corrections or comments. We’d appreciate your input

 

[DoomMeister]

It looks like the facilities map calls all extensions E2 but as you can see from the facilities map there are no authorization boxes in the extensions indicating that no authorization is required.

Even if this airspace didn’t participate in LAANC but required authorization there would be authorization boxes which is not the case here. Furthermore, the vfr chart clearly indicates the extensions by the blue dashed line segragating the airspace. The charts are what we are suppose to go off of and the facilities map is just there for reference.

Part 107.41 reads

“No person may operate a small unmanned aircraft in Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from Air Traffic Control (ATC).”

The dashed blue line indicates a segregation of the airspace, therefore, the airspace in the extensions are not “designated for an airport” and therefore do not require authorization under part 107.

The FAA put together this very helpful slide to explain Class E airspace types and when authorization is needed.

https://www.faa.gov/uas/resources/events_calendar/archive/2019_uas_symposium/media/How_To_Understand_and_Operate_in_Class_E.pdf

@sar104 feel free to make any corrections or comments. We’d appreciate your input

I agree with you when it comes to reading the charts. I’m thinking this is another mistake in the UAS Facilities Map and should be shown as E4 on the map instead of E2. I have submitted a query to the USS help desk in reference to the Class E airspace on and adjacent to KPOU.