Law Question: Can a City Commission arbitrarily make rules regulating Drones without FAA approval?

[lookout]

A bit of journalist perspective... Many and probably most people on city, borough, parish and county councils and boards along with many or most law enforcement are not overly intelligent, often have a surprisingly poor understanding of our legal system, and even more surprising do not understand laws even when they are reading the actual law (and FWIW, I've struggled to understand many laws when I'm reading them).

This is not to take away from the many hard working and effective-for-good people in all of these. Just because you work with a bunch of turkeys doesn't mean you are one. One of my best friends is a sheriffs deputy and the stories he tells about some of the folks he works with are scary.

Citizens frequently challenge things, at the incident and in court, and win. This is one of the only ways to keep gov't in check and is how our constitution and justice system are designed. If you know you are in the right legally and ethically and are not endangering anyone then consider taking up the challenge.

Many times you have to read the minutes or the discussion behind the laws and find out they were talking about basket weaving. Otherwise, I wouldn't trust the law at face value.

 

[RoboticTundra]

Many times you have to read the minutes or the discussion behind the laws and find out they were talking about basket weaving. Otherwise, I wouldn't trust the law at face value.

Yeah, the discussions can be scary. Though I've also heard some quite insightful stuff as well. I just wish we had a lot more of the latter and a lot less of the former.

 

[MKurr]

If you purchased a legal representation policy, then flew and got ticketed or arrested you could fight it and most likely win. I know AMA members get an insurance policy, but I believe it may only cover liability.

Where can you get such a policy?

 

[Blacksheep Pilot]

The thing is, in Florida state law provides that local governments are not legally permitted to enact their own laws related to drone use. Isn't it as simple as that?

NC also only requires a permit for non recreational use. Though as we now know, very few drone flights are truly recreational.

Florida and the FAA both say it.


https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-statement-federal-vs-local-drone-authority

FAA Statement–Federal vs. Local Drone Authority​

Friday, July 20, 2018

Congress has provided the FAA with exclusive authority to regulate aviation safety, the efficiency of the navigable airspace, and air traffic control, among other things. State and local governments are not permitted to regulate any type of aircraft operations, such as flight paths or altitudes, or the navigable airspace.
However, these powers are not the same as regulation of aircraft landing sites, which involves local control of land and zoning. Laws traditionally related to state and local police power – including land use, zoning, privacy, and law enforcement operations – generally are not subject to federal regulation.

Cities and municipalities are not permitted to have their own rules or regulations governing the operation of aircraft.
However, as indicated, they may generally determine the location of aircraft landing sites through their land use powers.



But that does not mean a cop won't give you a ticket as he tries to enforce the local ordinances. My best defense is to not be seen, launching, landing or controlling a within sight of me. If nobody sees it, if nobody is aware, then no offense has taken place.

 

[Blacksheep Pilot]

A bit of journalist perspective... Many and probably most people on city, borough, parish and county councils and boards along with many or most law enforcement are not overly intelligent, often have a surprisingly poor understanding of our legal system, and even more surprising do not understand laws even when they are reading the actual law (and FWIW, I've struggled to understand many laws when I'm reading them).

This is not to take away from the many hard working and effective-for-good people in all of these. Just because you work with a bunch of turkeys doesn't mean you are one. One of my best friends is a sheriffs deputy and the stories he tells about some of the folks he works with are scary.

Citizens frequently challenge things, at the incident and in court, and win. This is one of the only ways to keep gov't in check and is how our constitution and justice system are designed. If you know you are in the right legally and ethically and are not endangering anyone then consider taking up the challenge.

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[Vic Moss]

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I am not a fan of what Ken and his team did here. I like Ken, and talk to him fairly regularly. And I do understand his kitsch, but making fun of city council members isn't the way to go.

And Jason, Geeksvana, and especially Ryan, should have presented this in a much better fashion.

Three of our local drone pilots were actively working with not only the Brook Park Council, but also the Chief of Police and the Law Clerk. This was under control. The pilots (& FAA person) testifying had to apologize about some of the comments made on Ken's show. The Council was told about this video, and weren't really happy with how they were characterized. I'm not saying some of it wasn't accurate, but this isn't how you approach governments when you're trying to work with them. Making fun of them doesn't help the situation. It makes it harder for the locals who are working on the ground.

The City Council will talk about this again in a few days, and I'm pretty sure it's a dead deal.

So all's well that ends well, so that ended up not being an issue. But you can't talk about people like that and expect them to not dig in deeper. Luckily cooler heads prevailed.

 

[Heavydpj]

As mentioned above by @Hauptmann, the city's board of governors can restrict where you are welcome to set up and operate from, including public beaches, parks, and other public lands.

Absolutely right. State and local governments are completely within their authority to tell you that you are not allowed to operate a UAS from city or state property (e.g. city beach, state park). However, if you can launch from a location that is a public roadway and still maintain LOS with your UAS, you should be fine.

 

[Heavydpj]

"What should I do when approached by an official, who says, the city's board decided to make an ordinance restricting unmanned aircraft systems? City governments are just a bunch of local citizens who have no clue what the laws are governing the drone industry. Should I email these people educational materials and current law to educate them?"

You should absolutely stand your ground and tell the police officer that he has no authority to tell you what to do, and continue to fly your drone.

No, not really. That would be incredibly stupid and legally incorrect.

Regardless of what you believe, you should comply with the law enforcement's direction and sort it out later.

However, state and local legislatures are allowed to make laws restricting where and when you can operate your UAS from. This is NOT the same as making laws telling you where you can fly OVER. That's the FAA's purview.

For example, they can definitely tell you that you cannot operate your UAS from the city beach. However, if you go to a public roadside or private property, you can operate the UAS from there, and fly OVER the beach (assuming that you are abiding by the FAA rules.

 

[RoboticTundra]

State and local governments are completely within their authority to tell you that you are not allowed to operate a UAS from city or state property (e.g. city beach, state park).

Not necessarily. They frequently overstep their authority. Sometimes for a good and reasonable reason and sometimes not. And sometimes even when they are within their authority something might be worth challenging.

 

[tlswift58]

Florida and the FAA both say it.


https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-statement-federal-vs-local-drone-authority

FAA Statement–Federal vs. Local Drone Authority​

Friday, July 20, 2018

Congress has provided the FAA with exclusive authority to regulate aviation safety, the efficiency of the navigable airspace, and air traffic control, among other things. State and local governments are not permitted to regulate any type of aircraft operations, such as flight paths or altitudes, or the navigable airspace.
However, these powers are not the same as regulation of aircraft landing sites, which involves local control of land and zoning. Laws traditionally related to state and local police power – including land use, zoning, privacy, and law enforcement operations – generally are not subject to federal regulation.

Cities and municipalities are not permitted to have their own rules or regulations governing the operation of aircraft.
However, as indicated, they may generally determine the location of aircraft landing sites through their land use powers.



But that does not mean a cop won't give you a ticket as he tries to enforce the local ordinances. My best defense is to not be seen, launching, landing or controlling a within sight of me. If nobody sees it, if nobody is aware, then no offense has taken place.

Towns / cities / and states CAN and DO enact "No Drone Laws" - and NC has them, mostly in State Parks. It is legal for them to stop you on the ground, but they can't restrict you "typically" in the air - as the FAA controls that.

GA has same rules for state parks and been that way for a few years. CO and the City oof Denver have rules for no fly in their parks and the "Denver" rule extends far beyond the city limits of Denver.

Easiest way to bypass this is to simply take-off / land outside of said park / zone that restricts drones from doing that part. Until the FAA designates airspace over such parks, including Nat Parks as NO FLY ZONES, nothing stops a rec or 107 pilot from legally taking off and landing outside those zones.

I'm in the Outer Banks now and most of the southern part of Hatteras Island is considered National Park. Yet, many spits of land that are outside of the Nat Park Zone that allow me to t.o. / land. I'm sure some overly zealous Park Ranger / local LEO may want to restrict it, but they truly cannot. Would I argue with them - NO! I could show them in Aloft / etc that where I am standing for t.o. / landing is outside of their purview of control. If they still would want to push it, I'd just land and move on to another safe / legal flying spot.

 

[Mid-AtlanticDroneServices]

Just like National Parks. They own the land! Not the airspace. Therefore, they may make rules on “Take Off/Landing” but not over-flight.

Except the FAA band flying over all national parks including the entire Appalachian Trail.

 

[BigAl07]

Except the FAA band flying over all national parks including the entire Appalachian Trail.

That's not correct. You can't takeoff/land from NPS land but you CAN fly over it as long as you're following all applicable FAA rules (BVLOS etc). If you want to fly over the AT you takeoff from an area adjacent to it, fly over and then land back on non-AT land.

 

[tlswift58]

Except the FAA band flying over all national parks including the entire Appalachian Trail.

As @BigAl07 says - you can fly over NPS and other restricted areas like state / local parks / etc - but can't take off or land on them.

Can you provide that info on your statement? We'd all like to see it.

 

[thispilothere]

I only skimmed the thread, what was the actual ordinance? Did the cop know it?

Most cops don't know the law and get an ego about it when challenged. If you run into a tyrant in a blue costume, antagonize him until he arrests you, you'll get a nice settlement from the city.

 

[tlswift58]

I only skimmed the thread, what was the actual ordinance? Did the cop know it?

Most cops don't know the law and get an ego about it when challenged. If you run into a tyrant in a blue costume, antagonize him until he arrests you, you'll get a nice settlement from the city.

Maybe in LA, but most LEO's enforce the law and don't have an ego. You make some "excessive presumptions," so when are YOU going to the Police Academy to show them how it is to be done?

Cops will take down arrogant self centered people in a heartbeat and guess what - they (you) earn it. You can't win a lawsuit when you are the agitator /aggressor, except maybe in Cali.

 

[thispilothere]

Maybe in LA, but most LEO's enforce the law and don't have an ego. You make some "excessive presumptions," so when are YOU going to the Police Academy to show them how it is to be done?

Cops will take down arrogant self centered people in a heartbeat and guess what - they (you) earn it. You can't win a lawsuit when you are the agitator /aggressor, except maybe in Cali.

My gym bro just did in Kentucky too.

 

[BigAl07]

I only skimmed the thread, what was the actual ordinance? Did the cop know it?

Most cops don't know the law and get an ego about it when challenged. If you run into a tyrant in a blue costume, antagonize him until he arrests you, you'll get a nice settlement from the city.

Absolutely HORRIBLE advice! I'm seeing a pattern here and it's not a good one. . .

 

[Vic Moss]

I only skimmed the thread, what was the actual ordinance? Did the cop know it?

Most cops don't know the law and get an ego about it when challenged. If you run into a tyrant in a blue costume, antagonize him until he arrests you, you'll get a nice settlement from the city.

Feel free to take your own advice and let us know how that goes. At least once they give you permission to reach the outside world.

People with your attitude do more harm to this industry than all other people combined.

 

[Mid-AtlanticDroneServices]

Thus far it seems most localities don't understand what the FAA controls vs. what they do. In Delaware, (home of the Every Weekend Presidential TFR, apparently), they state that one cannot fly in or OVER any state park. Well, they can stop you from flying FROM a state park, but not over it unless it's an FAA restriction (which it generally isn't unless there is the aforementioned TFR).

 

[Mid-AtlanticDroneServices]

Absolutely HORRIBLE advice! I'm seeing a pattern here and it's not a good one. . .

Agreed. I hope he was being sarcastic. It's always bad advice to antagonize any law enforcement official. I wouldn't even do it with DNR people. Even if you're right, you can't get into a confrontation. Not only are you screwing up the industry/hobby, but you're going get at least a disorderly conduct.