Line of Sight?

[dmanthree]

I'd be VERY careful posting anything showing you were flying "Miles Away" online. The wrong person sees it, takes an interest in it, makes an email or phone call, and you'll be getting an "Informational Meeting" with the FAA.

By the way, have you taken the time to take and get your TRUST yet? It's not an option but a Federal Requirement to fly UAS in the USA under ~44809 (The Exception for limited recreational operations of unmanned aircraft)

It's FREE, ONLINE and only takes a few minutes. Like I said, it's a Federal Requirement so you should go take it and put that one behind you...

FAA TRUST Online Portal for Recreational Drone Operators - Pilot Institute

Get your FAA TRUST Certificate of Completion to legally fly drones for recreational reasons in the United States.

trust.pilotinstitute.com

Yes, I did get that. I'm legit across the board, right down to remote ID.

 

[thispilothere]

It was miles away, but nowhere near anything, really. Open ocean, no aircraft in the area, no altitude restriction, near zero chance of interfering with anything. And you seem so have made my point: many do it from time to time. I'm betting most do it more often than not.

I wouldn't disagree. On an average 10-20 minute flight, I'd guess most people skirt the rules for 2-5 minutes.

 

[Ty Pilot]

I never did answer the OP's question so here goes my explanation:

Yes my drone (whichever it may be) is always in sight, no visual aids, and in view. When flying and operating the camera I am constantly switching between looking at the drone and its surroundings visually, and monitoring the screen for critical flight data as well as camera operation. But am always mindful what my primary job is

I can fly and maneuver my Mavic2Pro with visual precision out to 1000 or more feet and my bigger drones out past 1500 feet. I have yet to come across a real estate job or any video project I've done that could not be accomplished within these distances.

So yeah, I'm always VLOS. To be honest (and I'm gonna take heat for this) . . . . doing the whole 'Dora the explorer' thing that many do with drones out at max range . . . I just find boring. Maybe thats because I got my "I'm-flying-an-aircraft-remotely" jollies from flying RC. If I am not shooting (camera stuff), then I'm not out just flying around for no reason. YMMV

 

[Phantomrain.org]

In the Court Room is where this all really comes to Light !

Your drone crashed on to the road , scared the old lady driver an she killed a few people waiting for the bus.

First question asked ? Is it true that you were flying over 5000 ft away YES
Were you aware that you were flying wel beyond VLOS , YES

No further questions !

Everytime I Fly I think about this !
This is why I limit my Risk , because DJI is not going to be sitting next to you about how there sorry you lost signal or a Prop or your battery died, or its the Bird that is going to Jail NOPE !

Here is how I limit my Risk !
I fly to the open / close eye dot 2500 ft on average.
I never fly over people or heavy traffic areas
I alway do a Straight up Hover Check to see my sorroundings
I have a Remote Landing Spot , near where I am flying to.
I have the Wet Suit in case I get caught in the Rain.
I never fly without a clear line of sight , meaning no trees directly in front of me

I may add to that in the future but for now , its been working very well and allows
me to fly with as little stress as flying a drone can offer and yet be able to enjoy the drone on any given day.

Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly in the Rain. Land on the Water. Find a Remote Spot to land .

 

[JeffreyS]

I've been asked if I know the rules. . Yes, I do. And I understand what the rules were meant for. And their purpose. I am keenly aware of any and all safety conflicts that my actions may create. That's why I only fly in remote areas where there are few or no people at all. It's clear to me that the FAA rule set is based on old technology and the protections that were required back then, before 2009 as someone here pointed out. I DO watch my drone until it is too difficult to see with aging eyes. Then I use the camera on the drone to tell me exactly where it is and what is around me, far more accurately than I can do unaided by the camera. I consider this better than just maintaining VLOS. When your drone is 500 to 1500 feet away, you can not tell by looking at it what is under it or how close you are to anything nearby (Unless you are in a flat wide open plain with no vegetation or any objects in it and even then it's impossible to know at such a distance). I am staying within the intent and purpose of the original outdated yet current rules, and performing just as safely, or even safer than if I were to try staring at it for the entire flight. That's why I have never had a single safety issue or 'close encounter' in the 5 or 6 years that I've been piloting. Some rules were written to serve a purpose in a previous technological time and need updating to keep them true to their purposeful intent in the modern world. The government needs to embrace the current technology as it applies to enhancing and maintaining the safety requirements it desires. Yes, I am occassionally taking my chances legally, but maintaining safety, which is what it is all about. I'll bet we all do. So, how many of you have ever driven 57 mph in a 55 mph zone? Yeah, that's what I thought. Perhaps someone doesn't like the phrase 'get real' but it's the realities in 2023 that need to be taken into account. Not 2009. I should have said 'Get Modern'. OK, now would be the time for all the eagle eyed rule followers to shred me. I mean no offense to any of you, and I enjoy intelligent debate.

 

[BigAl07]

So tell us @JeffreyS, in the picture below which part of the US are you in that has "few or no people at all" that makes it "Ok" to make up your own rules and blatantly ignore the ones we are required to follow?

 

[Phantomrain.org]

That picture with the planes brings up a really important point , something i forgot to mention.

One of the things that really came as a Shock , a Surprise to me was how both planes, helicopters, airports, sporting events , react to drones .

its still mind blowing to me but we have the ability to HALT any all Fire /Rescue attempts, Sporting Events and Planes taking off or landing , this is a FACT , we have all seen it ,and the power at play have made it very clear.

I live just a little past 5 miles to the Air Port , and that means planes are constantly flying over its Unfortunate but not all planes let me know there in the sky, so this is yet another reason why I have to be able to have some sight over my drone .

As a matter of Respect to whoever is in the Air with me at the time I lower my drones down as low as I feel comfortable letting that Pilot know I have seen him and aware , i simply cannot do that if my drone is out to far and I cannot see it.

We dont have to agree as to why drones are a threat in the sky , we only need to Understand that this is how they/Powers at bay have choosen to React to our drones.

So this demands that we take responsiblity for how they are going to react regardless if we agree about it.

Until this changes , and birds are wiped from the planet ,an props stay on , and batteries have a back up and I can see more than 1 camera angle at a time on the screen BVLOS flying is still flying blind .

I posted this picture just for fun , but these were real incidents , imagine if it would have been over a city or busy streets , so my view points over the years have drastically changed about BVLOS an what I feel comfortable with .

View attachment skul pictures.jpg

Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly in the Rain, Land on the Water, and have a Remote Landing Point ready to go.

 

[Starz]

no aircraft in the area

That you or someone was aware of at the time. Fixed wing aircraft can come from anywhere at any time. I’ve been in that boat and it does register as a pucker factor.

 

[solidhouse]

I was told that any flight under the there radar can be subjected to being flagged.

What’s does this mean?

 

[twickers14]

Always in line of sight.

 

[HoozierDroneDaddy]

It was miles away, but nowhere near anything, really. Open ocean, no aircraft in the area, no altitude restriction, near zero chance of interfering with anything. And you seem so have made my point: many do it from time to time. I'm betting most do it more often than not.

I wish I had the vision to see a drone the size of the M3 MILES away. That aside, this reminds me of the incident a couple of years ago where the pilot was flying his drone I believe it was 5 miles away and collided with a military helicopter. Made big news. That was a prime example for keeping VLOS, so you can see and avoid other aircraft. Not to start an argument, but at several miles away, I would find it hard to not only see your drone, but even a small manned aircraft, balloon, glider, etc.

 

[markschacht1]

I'm a 107, and I routinely fly in unrestricted airspace 'near' several restricted areas (one is for helicopters). I have, occasionally, and momentarily, 'lost' VLOS, but immediately turn all my total attention to regaining it. Flying BVLOS in such an area is not only illegal, but dangerous. But even when I fly without any of these obvious complicating factors, I never AIM to fly BVLOS. Why would you knowingly do that? I have hundreds of flights, in a variety of drones, and I have relatively little absolute faith in the technology (amazing though it is). Regularly flying BVLOS is a prescription for disaster, in my opinion. And flying 'miles away'??? I hope you have good insurance.

 

[JimWest]

It was miles away, but nowhere near anything, really. Open ocean, no aircraft in the area, no altitude restriction, near zero chance of interfering with anything. And you seem so have made my point: many do it from time to time. I'm betting most do it more often than not.

Frankly, this attitude is really scary. You don't know it wasn't near anything or that it would stay "not near anything." A couple years ago I was doing aerial photography in a remote forest in Pennsylvania. And I lost sight of my drone. I wasn't worried because there was nothing nearby, until a helicopter towing a huge log popped up from below a hill. Since I couldn't see my drone, I didn't know whether to ascend or descend, go left or right. Nothing bad happened, but it did impress on me the importance of the FAA line of sight regulation.

 

[PAW]

Frankly, this attitude is really scary. You don't know it wasn't near anything or that it would stay "not near anything." A couple years ago I was doing aerial photography in a remote forest in Pennsylvania. And I lost sight of my drone. I wasn't worried because there was nothing nearby, until a helicopter towing a huge log popped up from below a hill. Since I couldn't see my drone, I didn't know whether to ascend or descend, go left or right. Nothing bad happened, but it did impress on me the importance of the FAA line of sight regulation.

Ditto. Live in a big orchard ag area. Been surprised by very fast and low crop dusters that I couldn't tell the direction/altitude until they were directly over me.

 

[Lets Fly]

It's not just "Clear Line Of Sight" but being able to see the drone and determine it's direction of flight, altitude, and orientation. If you can't do ALL of those the aircraft is BVLOS and you are violating FAA regulations for commercial and hobby flights.

Seeing a small speck on the far horizon is not VLOS and is not operating under the See & Avoid concept which is fundamental for UAS safety.

We have probably gone over this before, but seeing a dot in the sky is VLOS at least for me. I see the dot and I go left or I go right and if the dot agrees the drone is facing away from me. If I go left and it goes to my right I know it's facing me. Going up or down is easy, and if I went left and it went left I simply turn left and go forward I now know my direction of flight. Altitude can only be determined on the screen.

 

[BigAl07]

We have probably gone over this before, but seeing a dot in the sky is VLOS at least for me. I see the dot and I go left or I go right and if the dot agrees the drone is facing away from me. If I go left and it goes to my right I know it's facing me. Going up or down is easy, and if I went left and it went left I simply turn left and go forward I now know my direction of flight. Altitude can only be determined on the screen.

That's all fine and good but while you're doing your "locating procedure" that manned aircraft has covered a LOT of territory.

Go with it however it works best for you but if there is an incident and you're relying on that "Speck"... it may not work out in your favor. You do it however you see fit

 

[dmanthree]

In the Court Room is where this all really comes to Light !

Your drone crashed on to the road , scared the old lady driver an she killed a few people waiting for the bus.

First question asked ? Is it true that you were flying over 5000 ft away YES
Were you aware that you were flying wel beyond VLOS , YES

No further questions !

Everytime I Fly I think about this !
This is why I limit my Risk , because DJI is not going to be sitting next to you about how there sorry you lost signal or a Prop or your battery died, or its the Bird that is going to Jail NOPE !

Here is how I limit my Risk !
I fly to the open / close eye dot 2500 ft on average.
I never fly over people or heavy traffic areas
I alway do a Straight up Hover Check to see my sorroundings
I have a Remote Landing Spot , near where I am flying to.
I have the Wet Suit in case I get caught in the Rain.
I never fly without a clear line of sight , meaning no trees directly in front of me

I may add to that in the future but for now , its been working very well and allows
me to fly with as little stress as flying a drone can offer and yet be able to enjoy the drone on any given day.

Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly in the Rain. Land on the Water. Find a Remote Spot to land .

You can actually see your drone at 2,500'? Really?

 

[dmanthree]

Frankly, this attitude is really scary. You don't know it wasn't near anything or that it would stay "not near anything." A couple years ago I was doing aerial photography in a remote forest in Pennsylvania. And I lost sight of my drone. I wasn't worried because there was nothing nearby, until a helicopter towing a huge log popped up from below a hill. Since I couldn't see my drone, I didn't know whether to ascend or descend, go left or right. Nothing bad happened, but it did impress on me the importance of the FAA line of sight regulation.

Is my unit the only one that warns me of anything approaching? In the case I mentioned, over the open ocean, it's very easy to see anything coming. And determining location and direction is also a function of the software. Honestly, I get your points. But the situation you described is nothing like mine. I fly safe. Always.

 

[BigAl07]

Is my unit the only one that warns me of anything approaching? In the case I mentioned, over the open ocean, it's very easy to see anything coming. And determining location and direction is also a function of the software. Honestly, I get your points. But the situation you described is nothing like mine. I fly safe. Always.

It's only reporting aircraft that are actively broadcasting ADS-B. Depending on where you're located you could only be seeing a small fraction of the aircraft actually IN the area.

Ok what happens if there is a Hardware/Software problem while you're flying "Blindly Miles Away" and you not long have video or on-screen telemetry from the aircraft? How do you See & Avoid? How do you get the AIRCRAFT home? What if RTH fails (It rarely does but it could ....)?

Aviation is about Risk Mitigation and flying Miles Away is the opposite of that.

 

[Ty Pilot]

I've been asked if I know the rules. . Yes, I do. And I understand what the rules were meant for. And their purpose. I am keenly aware of any and all safety conflicts that my actions may create. That's why I only fly in remote areas where there are few or no people at all.

Are you sure you know what the rules were meant for? That last sentence above seems to indicate you don't.

It's clear to me that the FAA rule set is based on old technology and the protections that were required back then, before 2009 as someone here pointed out.

The FAA was formed when congress passed the Federal Aviation act of 1958. It's sole purpose then and now is simple:
"to provide for the safe and efficient use of the National Airspace". When it comes to drones, the primary goal of the regulations made specifically for unmanned aircraft is: deconfliction of airspace which (Ironically), is at the heart and sole of VLOS.

I DO watch my drone until it is too difficult to see with aging eyes. Then I use the camera on the drone to tell me exactly where it is and what is around me, far more accurately than I can do unaided by the camera. I consider this better than just maintaining VLOS. When your drone is 500 to 1500 feet away, you can not tell by looking at it what is under it or how close you are to anything nearby

What about manned aircraft? While looking at a screen that is displaying a mere fraction of a global 360 field of view provided by a camera that in most cases, is limited to the lower half of that global field of view - you can detect an oncoming aircraft? From any direction? Really?