Line of Sight?

[Phantomrain.org]

You can actually see your drone at 2,500'? Really?

Yes < in blue skies, gray skies, white skies, but not sunny skies. That I try to avoid, I would rather point the drone in the other direction and never get to where I am going . lol

In the Storm I keep the drone within about 500 ft to 1000 ft.

Part of this is because my NECK gets really Exhausted looking straight up so I send it out a ways to help with that.

Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly in the Rain. Land on the Water , Caputre the Storm.

 

[dmanthree]

It's only reporting aircraft that are actively broadcasting ADS-B. Depending on where you're located you could only be seeing a small fraction of the aircraft actually IN the area.

Ok what happens if there is a Hardware/Software problem while you're flying "Blindly Miles Away" and you not long have video or on-screen telemetry from the aircraft? How do you See & Avoid? How do you get the AIRCRAFT home? What if RTH fails (It rarely does but it could ....)?

Aviation is about Risk Mitigation and flying Miles Away is the opposite of that.

Malfunction can happen anywhere at any time. If they do, the distance hardly matters. Anomalies can happen, no question, but what difference does it make if your drone crashes into a road 1,000' away or 2 miles away? Again, I don't dispute what you say and always fly safe.

 

[Ty Pilot]

These threads always devolve into the same arguments from those who choose to fly BVLOS and pretend they are compliant and safe:

• The - 'I'm more informed by looking at the screen' argument
• The - 'I haven't brought down a manned aircraft yet, so I am 100% safe' argument
• The - "all the tech is so great' argument
• The - 'I am all about safety blah, blah blah' - and on and on and on and on.

Anyone who claims they are better informed, more aware, or can execute 'see and avoid at two miles' - I challenge to you a simple task.

THE VLOS CHALLANGE

1. I will fly VLOS from somewhere in the tiny field shown at left. It is approximately 1000 feet across and 900 feet at the tallest point, I will not fly outside of that field and will remain VLOS according to FAA regulations.
2. You must take off from the point shown at right and fly the two (2) miles to my little field.

The Goal is simple: Who sees who first? Using your drone, you take a picture of me, or my drone - BEFORE I take a picture of your drone. You have two (2) targets, in a confined area - I have but one tiny target - your drone in the open sky - Discuss.

 

[dmanthree]

These threads always devolve into the same arguments from those who choose to fly BVLOS and pretend they are compliant and safe:

• The - 'I'm more informed by looking at the screen' argument
• The - 'I haven't brought down a manned aircraft yet, so I am 100% safe' argument
• The - "all the tech is so great' argument
• The - 'I am all about safety blah, blah blah' - and on and on and on and on.

Anyone who claims they are better informed, more aware, or can execute 'see and avoid at two miles' - I challenge to you a simple task.

THE VLOS CHALLANGE

1. I will fly VLOS from somewhere in the tiny field shown at left. It is approximately 1000 feet across and 900 feet at the tallest point, I will not fly outside of that field and will remain VLOS according to FAA regulations.
2. You must take off from the point shown at right and fly the two (2) miles to my little field.

The Goal is simple: Who sees who first? Using your drone, you take a picture of me, or my drone - BEFORE I take a picture of your drone. You have two (2) targets, in a confined area - I have but one tiny target - your drone in the open sky - Discuss.


View attachment 170638

I'd actually try this, but, well, it assumes that we both have the same excellent eyesight. ;-)

Did you just invite me to break the law? :-D

 

[Dmcvey]

What I posted in a previous conversation on this topic:

I know most of us won't admit it, and it is sort of a taboo conversation, but really, how many of us actually watch our drones directly with our eyes while flying, recording or photographing? At the risk of being arrested, I'll admit that I don't always watch it and I navigate by the controller monitor. How else can you tell what you're looking at or photographing? Why else would you fly a drone with a camera? VLOS is fine for takeoff and landing. Let's get real.

The FAA allows for you to look at the screen to acquire the photograph, but you have to be able to readily relocate the aircraft.

 

[Dmcvey]

Case study on near miss, drone and helo same GPS location less than 100' vertical clearance:
Tips to Avoid Collisions Between Drones and Helicopters

UAV pilot had LOS to drone, did not have situational LOS.

Investigatory Findings​

• As part of the drone operation preflight familiarization, the remote pilot did not include the number of nearby heliports or note their locations relative to the operational area of the flight. The remote pilot did not consider the direction and distance to heliports located in the vicinity of the planned operation.
• FAA investigators determined the remote pilot’s location did not afford them with adequate visibility of the surrounding airspace. According to the investigation, there were at least three alternate locations that offered a more adequate view of the surrounding airspace. Part 107 requires a remote pilot to perform an assessment of the operating environment prior to flight. This assessment must consider risks to persons and property in the immediate vicinity, both on the surface and in the air. The assessment assists the remote pilot in selecting a location that ensures adequate visibility of the surrounding airspace at all times during the flight. Adequate visibility of the surrounding airspace provides remote pilots with the opportunity to deconflict from other aviation traffic as required by 14 CFR section 107.37.
• The remote pilot admitted their location prevented them from seeing or hearing the helicopter until it was too late to maneuver out of the way.
• The remote pilot did not use a visual observer to assist in scanning the surrounding airspace for other aviation traffic.
• The remote pilot was focused on viewing the controller display during the operation.

 

[BigAl07]

Malfunction can happen anywhere at any time. If they do, the distance hardly matters. Anomalies can happen, no question, but what difference does it make if your drone crashes into a road 1,000' away or 2 miles away? Again, I don't dispute what you say and always fly safe.

I'm speaking specifically to the point of "losing your eyes" (aka onboard telemetry) during the flight. Cable becomes loose, tablet dies/overheats, or for whatever reason you can no longer see your aircraft's Live Feed but you need to still FLY it back home. This isn't a hypothetical question but a real world situation that has happened many many times. Most people assume when they lose the Live Feed from the drone it means the aircraft has crashed. Most of the time they've only lost the Data Feed (usually only video) and they SHOULD be flying the aircraft visually.

It was mentioned earlier but I wanted to circle back and give more input into this incident:

Army Blackhawk Collides With Drone Over NYC​

The first confirmed mid-air collision involving a U.S. drone.

(Allen's Cliff Notes): September 21st, 2017, a hobby UAS Operator was flying his DJI Phantom 4 Pro from Brooklyn NY (notice the stark similarities here) approx. 2.5 miles away out over what seemed to him was SAFE and Aircraft Free Airspace. Not only was this NOT "Clear Airspace" it was also within a Security TFR for a UN General Counsel meeting. The HOBBY OPERATOR lost contact with his UAS and ASSUMED it had crashed. Not only had it NOT crashed, it was doing a standard Return To Home due to loss of connection with the remote control. There were 2 Blackhawk Helicopters flying SECURITY for the UN Meeting and one of them was struck by the Phantom4 UAS. The drone was destroyed (most of it anyway) and the UH-60M made an EMERGENCY Landing with no onboard injuries. The UH-60M sustained some damage to one of the main rotors (It had to be replaced, $$$$), a window frame, and a transmission deck.

Now keep in mind that this was a mostly plastic drone hitting a Battle Hardened Aircraft and it still sustained damage requiring repairs/replacement. What if you strike a less battle built aircraft (small helicopter for instance)?

Key Points:

• Operator "thought" the airspace was safe/clear. He was clearly wrong grossly so.
• Operator was flying beyond VLOS and relying 100% on the viewing device to See & Avoid.
• Operator did not know the proper procedures to check airspace
• Operator was not "aware" of the laws of UAS and flew well beyond any reasonable VLOS distances
• Operator was unfamiliar with the inner workings of this UAS or the FailSafe procedures etc.

 

[Ty Pilot]

I'd actually try this, but, well, it assumes that we both have the same excellent eyesight. ;-)

No assumptions here. Anyone that flies a consumer drone two miles away and claims that their view of the screen on the controller is adequate to fulfill their obligation for safe operation in regards to VLOS surely could demonstrate that claim.

Personally, I don't know what it is like to take off, sit back and stare at a screen while the drone goes well beyond my ability to see it with my own eyes. But those who do it, seem to have a notion that it is a superior; and indeed safer/better, way to fly a drone.

All I am saying is - here is a scenario that (to my mind), would allow such a pilot, a grand opportunity to demonstrate to those of us who are hobbled by our outdated methods of navigation - just how much better; flying by the screen is. I realize that this challenge is likely never going to be met, simply because not everyone that can read this lives near me.

But perhaps someone could explain the method by which they could meet and win this challenge. So do you think you could win? Inquiring minds want to know. How would you do it? What are the steps?

Did you just invite me to break the law? :-D

Nope, you seem to have done that all by yourself. But in any case, the only one responsible for a flight is the PIC.

 

[shb]

Has anyone ever been charged with, or prosecuted for, flying a drone beyond VLOS?

 

[BobaFut]

Has anyone ever been charged with, or prosecuted for, flying a drone beyond VLOS?

It's not a "crime" to violate VLOS, it's a civil infraction that could lead to (potentially large) fines or other penalties. But you can't be "charged" or "prosecuted" for it (on its own).

 

[dmanthree]

It's not a "crime" to violate VLOS, it's a civil infraction that could lead to (potentially large) fines or other penalties. But you can't be "charged" or "prosecuted" for it (on its own).

It's a fair question, though. Has anyone ever paid a fine for flying beyond VLOS?

 

[BobaFut]

It's a fair question, though. Has anyone ever paid a fine for flying beyond VLOS?

I recall seeing a couple of YouTube videos of people being contacted by the FAA for videos that were clearly and egregiously BVLOS. I don't remember them being fined, but they basically had to apologize and all that. The rumor was that during covid the FAA was just having people troll YouTube and issuing warning letters but claims of this seem to have been either overblown or the FAA has since mostly stopped doing it (maybe with all the passenger airliner near-misses over the last year they realized policing drone footage wasn't a good use of anyone's time).

 

[dmanthree]

I recall seeing a couple of YouTube videos of people being contacted by the FAA for videos that were clearly and egregiously BVLOS. I don't remember them being fined, but they basically had to apologize and all that. The rumor was that during covid the FAA was just having people troll YouTube and issuing warning letters but claims of this seem to have been either overblown or the FAA has since mostly stopped doing it (maybe with all the passenger airliner near-misses over the last year they realized policing drone footage wasn't a good use of anyone's time).

I wondered about that; does the FAA have enough people to actually police drone flights? Honestly, when I fly commercial airlines I'm more worried about bird strikes than drones.

 

[JeffreyS]

I'm curious , when maintaining near constant VLOS, what's the point of flying a drone? The general purpose of using one is to make photographs, videos, survelience, inspections, or mapping missions. All of these endeavors require the operator to watch the monitor while flying. Some requirements need re-thinking.

 

[Ty Pilot]

It's a fair question, though. Has anyone ever paid a fine for flying beyond VLOS?

There have been numerous drone pilots fined by the FAA over the years. Keep in mind though, it is rare that anyone fined by the FAA has only broken a single regulation. Most times there are multiple infractions and breaking VLOS is but one of them. This is because people who break one rule tend to break many others - of course in their minds - its more like they're "bending" the rule - only to find out the FAA doesn't see it that way.

Indeed, most of the cases I've seen or heard of; the ones being fined are chronically ignorant or suffer from a very serious case of Anti-Authority - or perhaps both?

One case more recently was "The Philly Drone Guy" - he was fined 182,000.00 (Yes, one hundred and eighty-two thousand dollars) for 123 separate infractions - flying BVLOS on multiple occasions accounted for a number of those infractions. Remember, each time he did it was another infraction and another fine that all tallied up to the total.

Sometimes those investigations can take months or years by which time most folks (especially some drone pilots) have long forgotten the story ever existed. Perhaps @BigAl07 has more information on this?

 

[BobaFut]

I'm curious , when maintaining near constant VLOS, what's the point of flying a drone? The general purpose of using one is to make photographs, videos, survelience, inspections, or mapping missions. All of these endeavors require the operator to watch the monitor while flying. Some requirements need re-thinking.

IME the "business" applications are the easiest to maintain VLOS. Like, taking photos of a house for a realtor generally doesn't require a lot of height or distance and oftentimes occurs in places with lots of obstacles that you need VLOS to avoid.

But to your point...I don't judge folks who buy a $1000 drone and just watch it buzz around their yard or whatever but I don't understand the appeal. While it is possible to get great photos and maintain VLOS, I would wager that most really good drone photos/videos you come across are taken outside of VLOS (at least the very narrow definition taken by the "letter of the law folks" here).

 

[Ty Pilot]

I'm curious , when maintaining near constant VLOS, what's the point of flying a drone? The general purpose of using one is to make photographs, videos, survelience, inspections, or mapping missions. All of these endeavors require the operator to watch the monitor while flying. Some requirements need re-thinking.

I'm curious too. Have you read any of the replies on this thread? Seriously. You seem to intentionally avoid any of the explanations that have tried again and again; to explain what VLOS is (and more importantly), what it is not.

Specifically - your use of the term "constant VLOS'? There is no such thing, and implying it seems to be an attempt by you to besmirch the rule to the point that you can claim it is outdated or otherwise needs 'rethinking'

I have been a photographer and videographer for over 30 years, was doing aerial photography long before drones were even conceived. We used gas powered RC helicopter rigs with DSLRs on gimbals as far back as the 90s. Indeed, the drone was a natural progression from that era.

Believe me - I know what the purpose of a drone is (I mean no offense here), but sometimes when is see the arguments like you're making, I can't help but feel almost as if the reason you don't understand is that; there is so much you don't know and have not experienced. You simply can't contemplate that which is unknown to you.

I posted a challenge on the other page. A simple exercise that I had hoped would spark some conversation which; would bring to light the very essence of why starring at a screen is a vastly inferior method of SA compared to VLOS. It would show why VLOS is the rule.

The fact that only the OP (joking) acknowledged my challenge, but dared no opportunity to address it head on, speaks volumes. Perhaps some who fly BVLOS and claim that it an adequate (if not superior), method of SA - really know its not.

What say you? Think you could fly your drone two miles away and spot me before I spot you? If so, can you explain how you would do it and what advantages it affords you over me flying VLOS?

 

[Ty Pilot]

While it is possible to get great photos and maintain VLOS, I would wager that most really good drone photos/videos you come across are taken outside of VLOS (at least the very narrow definition taken by the "letter of the law folks" here).

I would take that bet, how much?

The way I see it is; the best photos and videos are made by professionals - people who earn their living from their craft. People who can't afford, or would not jeopardize the means by which they live. People like (I don't know), those folks who live and work in and around movie sets, TV shows and professional ad agencies - guys and gals like that.

One of the best photographers I know (met him through another forum), is Michael Kienitz. He goes by the Avatar Mickeyboo on the Yuneec forum. We became friends when he needed help with one of his drones before going to Iceland. Oh and by the way - all his drone shots - yep he is a strict VLOS-er.

He is a renowned photographer with credits like: Associated Press, Audubon, Business Week, CBS Sunday Morning, Der Spiegel, Discovery, Elle, Esquire, Forbes, Geo, Harper & Row, Life, MacMillian, MST3K, Newsweek, New York Times, Random House, Rolling Stone, Sci-Fi Channel, Time, Times of London, U.P.I.,Wall Street Journal, Warner Brothers Films, Washington Post and other media outlets worldwide

Click on that link and check his page out.

 

[BigAl07]

There have been numerous drone pilots fined by the FAA over the years. Keep in mind though, it is rare that anyone fined by the FAA has only broken a single regulation. Most times there are multiple infractions and breaking VLOS is but one of them. This is because people who break one rule tend to break many others - of course in their minds - its more like they're "bending" the rule - only to find out the FAA doesn't see it that way.

Indeed, most of the cases I've seen or heard of; the ones being fined are chronically ignorant or suffer from a very serious case of Anti-Authority - or perhaps both?

One case more recently was "The Philly Drone Guy" - he was fined 182,000.00 (Yes, one hundred and eighty-two thousand dollars) for 123 separate infractions - flying BVLOS on multiple occasions accounted for a number of those infractions. Remember, each time he did it was another infraction and another fine that all tallied up to the total.

Sometimes those investigations can take months or years by which time most folks (especially some drone pilots) have long forgotten the story ever existed. Perhaps @BigAl07 has more information on this?

Good post @Ty Pilot.

For those questioning "enforcement/fines/investigations" that's your choice. If there is an incident or a REPORT the FAA will investigate it. How far/deep the investigation goes is determined by several factors. Some just a quick internet search, some deeper searching, and some an In-Person meeting with training mandated.

Keep in mind the FAA is about Safety and EDUCATION! Most of the "interactions" are merely Educational unless it's a very gross situation. You'll never hear about these "Educational Moments" because the FAA doesn't publicize them and the offender usually doesn't really want anyone to know as well.

 

[mavic3usa]

Sorry I didn't read every word in every post but I started thru most of it and alot is just repeated by the same sides on either side of the argument. Will tag this post and revisit it when the "law" changes and suddenly BVLOS (to a certain extent) is allowed (without a waiver) and see if any of the attitudes toward it change as well. In the meantime, follow the law is about all you can do.