Made the wrong decision!

[paulatkin73]

There is one other area where the Mavic 2 Pro excels and that is low light long exposure photography. Many of us have gotten sharp 4-8 second long shots, some even in winds as high as 25mph. My P4 and my buddies Inspire 2 have never managed such shots Here’s one from this evening just before the storm rolled in.

hi Steve,

for the long exposure shots like this - what settings are important? do you need to set 'lock gimbal while shooting' or not?

 

[JAW]

Still waiting to hear from the OP as to whether he wants to sell it.

 

[CanadaDrone]

I hear what you're calling but my point is that 4k is by definition 8MB. Anything over 8MB is no longer 4k...at least how he was explained to me. If you have a sensor that's larger than 8MB, that extra data would have to be lost.

I'm honestly interested in your point of view.

Mine. You have a 4k bucket that only holds 8MB. If you try to fill it with 12MP, 4MP are lost/cropped/etc. Is that incorrect? The Mavic 2 Pro HQ Mode is a perfect example as it crops in to an 8MP sized frame, throwing away the rest of the data outside of that frame.

If any 20MP sensor were to create video using the entire sensor, it would not be 4k. Imho.

It sounds like you are confusing/combining different methods of achieving 4K video in your description.

4K is about 8 MP (not MB), that is true. The part I think that you are missing is that it doesn't matter if the sensor is 1,000,000 megapixels and 2 feet in diameter, if it is capable of only using a 4K portion of the sensor, only that portion is active and it is recording native 4K without any downsampling being done. You aren't throwing away any data to achieve 4K because no additional data is being recorded. The catch here is that method crops the image relative to the sensor size and native focal length (hence why HQ mode on the M2P drops from 77 degrees to 55 degrees FOV). This is completely different than using the entire sensor, and then pixel binning or skipping to get down to 4K, which is more what you are describing as that involves having the whole sensor active, but throwing away data to reduce both resolution and data throughput. Pixel binning is combining or averaging values of adjacent pixels to reduce effective resolution, and line skipping is literally just like it sounds - not reading certain lines on the sensor to reduce resolution - those methods allow you to maintain native FOV but at a cost of quality.

In FOV mode, what DJI does is something called Subsampling. This is basically pixel skipping. It allows DJI to maintain the native FOV (28mm equivalent / 77 degrees) while reducing the resolution of the sensor to 4K. Pixels are skipped when the sensor reads the data, and then that data is processed into what you see as a 4K image. The goal with all of these "workarounds" is to reduce the amount of data required for processing. DJI claims this method yields them a higher quality image than line skipping would have, and was the best 'compromise'.

The better way to do 4K, and what the M2P apparently does not have enough processing power to do, is a full width sensor readout and then properly scaling the image down to 4K using all of the sensor data (which I think is also along the lines of what you're trying to describe). Yes, the resolution changes, but you are utilizing the full sensor data to build each 4K frame. Properly processed, this yields much better quality video with reduced moire, artifacts, etc. however it requires a very fast sensor that can offload a very large amount of data very quickly, especially for 60fps. Then you need the processing power to deal with that data. You also maintain the native focal length when you do this, which is especially useful for interchangeable lens camera systems. The newer Sony RX100 cameras can do this because they use Sony's latest stacked BSI 1" sensors with integrated DRAM which have crazy fast readouts. Theoretically, DJI could have purchased these sensors and put them in the M2P, but they would also have to process that data which is where they claim the bottleneck is.

So you aren't really wrong, I just think you were mixing up different ways of obtaining 4K which is admittedly not straightforward.

 

[Lon Denard]

It sounds like you are confusing/combining different methods of achieving 4K video in your description.

4K is about 8 MP (not MB), that is true. The part I think that you are missing is that it doesn't matter if the sensor is 1,000,000 megapixels and 2 feet in diameter, if it is capable of only using a 4K portion of the sensor, only that portion is active and it is recording native 4K without any downsampling being done. You aren't throwing away any data to achieve 4K because no additional data is being recorded. The catch here is that method crops the image relative to the sensor size and native focal length (hence why HQ mode on the M2P drops from 77 degrees to 55 degrees FOV). This is completely different than using the entire sensor, and then pixel binning or skipping to get down to 4K, which is more what you are describing as that involves having the whole sensor active, but throwing away data to reduce both resolution and data throughput. Pixel binning is combining or averaging values of adjacent pixels to reduce effective resolution, and line skipping is literally just like it sounds - not reading certain lines on the sensor to reduce resolution - those methods allow you to maintain native FOV but at a cost of quality.

In FOV mode, what DJI does is something called Subsampling. This is basically pixel skipping. It allows DJI to maintain the native FOV (28mm equivalent / 77 degrees) while reducing the resolution of the sensor to 4K. Pixels are skipped when the sensor reads the data, and then that data is processed into what you see as a 4K image. The goal with all of these "workarounds" is to reduce the amount of data required for processing. DJI claims this method yields them a higher quality image than line skipping would have, and was the best 'compromise'.

The better way to do 4K, and what the M2P apparently does not have enough processing power to do, is a full width sensor readout and then properly scaling the image down to 4K using all of the sensor data (which I think is also along the lines of what you're trying to describe). Yes, the resolution changes, but you are utilizing the full sensor data to build each 4K frame. Properly processed, this yields much better quality video with reduced moire, artifacts, etc. however it requires a very fast sensor that can offload a very large amount of data very quickly, especially for 60fps. Then you need the processing power to deal with that data. You also maintain the native focal length when you do this, which is especially useful for interchangeable lens camera systems. The newer Sony RX100 cameras can do this because they use Sony's latest stacked BSI 1" sensors with integrated DRAM which have crazy fast readouts. Theoretically, DJI could have purchased these sensors and put them in the M2P, but they would also have to process that data which is where they claim the bottleneck is.

So you aren't really wrong, I just think you were mixing up different ways of obtaining 4K which is admittedly not straightforward.

Bah I thought I fixed the autocorrect errors. I'm actually well indoctrinated in 4k principals.

The RX100 is a bad example because they overheat and stop recording. I'm often accused of being a fan boy or whatever but I've been intimately involved in product development during my career. I guarantee that DJI looked at every sensor Sony has to offer, that fit the requirements of the build. Performance, cost, longevity, power consumption, ruggedNess, etc. I'm sure they choose the best sensor for the build. The main difference between me and most others on this forum, I consider DJI to be a decent company that has their customer's satisfaction as one of their main goals. I tend to look at these situations from a positive standpoint while you all seem to start from a negative point of view. You all have come at this like DJI did this to screw us over in some way. "They could have done this or that". I believe that they did the best they could with what they had, keeping this form factor, in this price point. Monday morning quarterbacks, that couldn't produce a decent paper airplane, have always second guessed DJI. Are they perfect? No of course not, but show me better in this form factor, that does more for less money?

 

[SteveCA]

hi Steve,

for the long exposure shots like this - what settings are important? do you need to set 'lock gimbal while shooting' or not?

I had to check the settings before answering. I have the setting on "lock gimbal when capturing" I presume that means it tries to maintain the same framing during capture. hope that helps.

 

[paulatkin73]

I had to check the settings before answering. I have the setting on "lock gimbal when capturing" I presume that means it tries to maintain the same framing during capture. hope that helps.

Thx, i will try. So far i had inconsistent results, not sure what is wrong. All long exposure shots are blurry.

 

[CanadaDrone]

Thx, i will try. So far i had inconsistent results, not sure what is wrong. All long exposure shots are blurry.

You may not be doing anything wrong. You can't expect to get reliably sharp 8-second exposures with a drone without some luck involved. Everything looks good at web-size, especially if it's a long-distance shot which is also far more forgiving. I think you will find those doing the really long exposures have lower standards for sharpness if you were to see the full sized image

 

[Point Zero]

Thx, i will try. So far i had inconsistent results, not sure what is wrong. All long exposure shots are blurry.

Just a thought but I would consider doing a fresh recalibration of the IMU,compass and gimbal (gimbal last), it wont take long and it might help the AC to maintain a higher degree of stability. It's that or you have getting very unlucky with wind perhaps.

 

[CanadaDrone]

Bah I thought I fixed the autocorrect errors. I'm actually well indoctrinated in 4k principals.

The RX100 is a bad example because they overheat and stop recording. I'm often accused of being a fan boy or whatever but I've been intimately involved in product development during my career. I guarantee that DJI looked at every sensor Sony has to offer, that fit the requirements of the build. Performance, cost, longevity, power consumption, ruggedNess, etc. I'm sure they choose the best sensor for the build. The main difference between me and most others on this forum, I consider DJI to be a decent company that has their customer's satisfaction as one of their main goals. I tend to look at these situations from a positive standpoint while you all seem to start from a negative point of view. You all have come at this like DJI did this to screw us over in some way. "They could have done this or that". I believe that they did the best they could with what they had, keeping this form factor, in this price point. Monday morning quarterbacks, that couldn't produce a decent paper airplane, have always second guessed DJI. Are they perfect? No of course not, but show me better in this form factor, that does more for less money?

The photography world is full of examples where the best sensor was most definitely not chosen for the particular camera, but the semiconductor industry is a very complicated one and compromises are made all the time. I am not claiming to know the details of the M2P's sensor selection, but there are objectively better and more efficient sensors available than the one they chose. If I had to guess, the decision was probably more financially motivated than anything else, but that is speculation. DJI does have the luxury of being able to do pretty much whatever they want past a certain threshold because they have no real competition.

The RX100 VA is the perfect example because it fits a mind blowing amount of electronics into an extremely tiny body with no active or passive cooling. The fact that it can shoot 5 minutes of 4K at a time with full sensor readout along with a simultaneous 720P recording is nothing short of amazing. The RX10 series with the exact same sensor can do 30 minute 4K due to it's larger size. There are also many cameras with much larger sensors making a lot more heat than a 1" sensor that have 30min or longer 4K recording limits. It's not unreasonable to think that a Mavic 2 Pro which not only has active cooling, but also the benefit of sheer size along with significant air cooling, might be able to improve on maximum 4K recording times compared to much smaller devices with no cooling. Maybe the M2 Platininum or M3 will offer that.

I have not made any comments suggesting DJI was trying to 'screw anyone over', so I am not sure where you're getting that from. All I have done is try to help clear up some misconceptions regarding the 4K capture and I hope you have found them useful.

 

[Lon Denard]

The photography world is full of examples where the best sensor was most definitely not chosen for the particular camera, but the semiconductor industry is a very complicated one and compromises are made all the time. I am not claiming to know the details of the M2P's sensor selection, but there are objectively better and more efficient sensors available than the one they chose. If I had to guess, the decision was probably more financially motivated than anything else, but that is speculation. DJI does have the luxury of being able to do pretty much whatever they want past a certain threshold because they have no real competition.

The RX100 VA is the perfect example because it fits a mind blowing amount of electronics into an extremely tiny body with no active or passive cooling. The fact that it can shoot 5 minutes of 4K at a time with full sensor readout along with a simultaneous 720P recording is nothing short of amazing. The RX10 series with the exact same sensor can do 30 minute 4K due to it's larger size. There are also many cameras with much larger sensors making a lot more heat than a 1" sensor that have 30min or longer 4K recording limits. It's not unreasonable to think that a Mavic 2 Pro which not only has active cooling, but also the benefit of sheer size along with significant air cooling, might be able to improve on maximum 4K recording times compared to much smaller devices with no cooling. Maybe the M2 Platininum or M3 will offer that.

I have not made any comments suggesting DJI was trying to 'screw anyone over', so I am not sure where you're getting that from. All I have done is try to help clear up some misconceptions regarding the 4K capture and I hope you have found them useful.

Concluding that they chose a substandard sensor for financial reasons... Besides, I have to call you out. The RX100 costs over $1000. How much were you willing to pay cut a M2P? I very clearly stated that I believe they choose the best sensor for the build and price point. I agree that cost is a factor, I don't know about you but I've run businesses, COST IS ALWAYS A FACTOR! Again, the Monday morning quarterbacking going on. You said it yourself, they don't have a lot of competition. Why is that if they are overcharging their customers and using substandard parts? Btw Yuneec has a 1" sensor drone out that costs $1900 and Autel is still holding back. So maybe it's not as easy as you may think? I have drones from 7 different manufactures in my house right now. For better or worse, DJI produces a better package. Show me a drone of this size, that has all of these features, with a better camera. It doesn't exist.

 

[AroundTheWorld]

Concluding that they chose a substandard sensor for financial reasons... Besides, I have to call you out. The RX100 costs over $1000. How much were you willing to pay cut a M2P? I very clearly stated that I believe they choose the best sensor for the build and price point. I agree that cost is a factor, I don't know about you but I've run businesses, COST IS ALWAYS A FACTOR! Again, the Monday morning quarterbacking going on. You said it yourself, they don't have a lot of competition. Why is that if they are overcharging their customers and using substandard parts? Btw Yuneec has a 1" sensor drone out that costs $1900 and Autel is still holding back. So maybe it's not as easy as you may think? I have drones from 7 different manufactures in my house right now. For better or worse, DJI produces a better package. Show me a drone of this size, that has all of these features, with a better camera. It doesn't exist.

The drone that outperforms the Mavic 2 Pro in videography does already exist and it's the Mavic 2 Zoom.

 

[kilomikebravo]

The drone that outperforms the Mavic 2 Pro in videography does already exist and it's the Mavic 2 Zoom.

Well, ATW, I expect there are a few M2P owners here who will disagree, myself included and yes, I've seen plenty of M2Z clips. The optical zoom is fantastic, no doubt about that but, it's still essentially an MP sensor-wise.

 

[AroundTheWorld]

Well, ATW, I expect there are a few M2P owners here who will disagree, myself included and yes, I've seen plenty of M2Z clips. The optical zoom is fantastic, no doubt about that but, it's still essentially an MP sensor-wise.

The advantage of the Pro over the zoom is clearly visible in low light conditions but the zoom still has this much sharper image that the pro doesn't have which gives to the video a Phantom 4 Pro look. Well that's my opinion.

 

[CanadaDrone]

Concluding that they chose a substandard sensor for financial reasons... Besides, I have to call you out. The RX100 costs over $1000. How much were you willing to pay cut a M2P? I very clearly stated that I believe they choose the best sensor for the build and price point. I agree that cost is a factor, I don't know about you but I've run businesses, COST IS ALWAYS A FACTOR! Again, the Monday morning quarterbacking going on. You said it yourself, they don't have a lot of competition. Why is that if they are overcharging their customers and using substandard parts? Btw Yuneec has a 1" sensor drone out that costs $1900 and Autel is still holding back. So maybe it's not as easy as you may think? I have drones from 7 different manufactures in my house right now. For better or worse, DJI produces a better package. Show me a drone of this size, that has all of these features, with a better camera. It doesn't exist.

My comments regarding DJI's decisions were pure speculation as I clearly stated. We will never know the details of all the things they could have brought to market, or may be saving for subsequent generations (which I am sure they plan WELL in advance). If I were a betting man, I would guess (this is not a 'conclusion'), that they picked the point of diminishing return with regards to imaging performance where enough people would just buy it anyway. Having almost a complete monopoly on the market makes it difficult for consumers to theorize what they can and cannot do. It also allows DJI to drag their feet a bit, if they wanted to (I am not saying that is what they're doing) and slow down R&D or hold back certain features to maximize profit. Could DJI have added full sensor readout with, for example's sake, 5% more size and 10% more cost? Maybe, maybe not - we will never know those details.

The RX100 VA does not cost over $1000 (I assume you are talking in USD), and the V with it's full sensor readout is available for as little as $799 (even the III has full sensor readout for even less). I am not sure exactly what you think you are 'calling out' but your statement is incorrect.

I'd pay $3K without even thinking about it for a M2P with 'proper' 4K video, probably even more. I am very picky about image quality. I can only speak for myself there of course.

I work in marketing for a living and I own my own business, I am very aware of the factors that go into product development and bringing a product to market.

I didn't say anything was easy, and I didn't say cost wasn't a factor - you are putting words into my mouth and debating with yourself.

 

[CanadaDrone]

The drone that outperforms the Mavic 2 Pro in videography does already exist and it's the Mavic 2 Zoom.

How does the M2Z do with 10-bit D-Log That is the biggest reason the Pro is so attractive for video.

 

[Lon Denard]

How does the M2Z do with 10-bit D-Log That is the biggest reason the Pro is so attractive for video.

Aww come on, you know me better than that. I'm mostly just messing with you. I appreciate your opinions and insights. I don't agree that they could have done a lot better for the price, form factor, etc. If it was that "easy" someone would have done it. Anyone can buy a Sony sensor and throw it on a drone. Btw I was looking at the newest version, not an old one. Obviously, if the drone cost $3000 there's a lot they could have done better. I think you're in line for the Phantom 5! Hahaha! Price is a factor but it's not the only factor, there are other things at play here. Size is a big one, in my opinion. I know, now you're going to say you'd buy it if it was $3000 and twice the size! Hahaha! The processor would have to be upgraded, cooling, etc, etc, etc. I'm a engineer but really just a glorified mechanic. However, I know better than to think that they could have just installed a much more powerful sensor on the Mavic 2 without having to modify the rest of the drone's design. They didn't just cheap out on the camera sensor, in other words. Why not demand they have used the sensor out of the 6400 or A7III? Again, taking the entire package into account, I believe they did their best for the form factor, price, current tech, etc. That's all. I have nothing but respect for you but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Lon Denard]

The drone that outperforms the Mavic 2 Pro in videography does already exist and it's the Mavic 2 Zoom.

Now listen, I'm an old campaigner. I remember all the complaining about the Mavic Pro's camera. The Mavic 2 Zoom is using the same sensor. I think there have been improvements for sure but to say that it's better than the Pro? Nah, I don't think so. However, that's subjective and open to opinion. I do think that sometimes owners of the Camaro try to convince themselves that it's superior to the Corvette.

 

[Elude]

.....I do think that sometimes owners of the Camaro try to convince themselves that it's superior to the Corvette.

That supercharged Camaro is pretty cool compared to the base Vette. Just saying. Zoom can outshine the pro2 when zooming. Otherwise it’s all m2p for the win

 

[Point Zero]

If only all arguments and differences of opinions were debated as well as that! We have had some really interesting and informative threads recently. It’s great to learn from others more knowledgeable lol

 

[Mike4884]

Now listen, I'm an old campaigner. I remember all the complaining about the Mavic Pro's camera. The Mavic 2 Zoom is using the same sensor. I think there have been improvements for sure but to say that it's better than the Pro? Nah, I don't think so. However, that's subjective and open to opinion. I do think that sometimes owners of the Camaro try to convince themselves that it's superior to the Corvette.

It uses the same size sensor i dont actually think its the same sensor....i have the pro 2 and zoom....i prefer the zoom....only thing pro is good for is low light.....meh