Mavic Pro-2 vs Zoom and P4P - Line Skipping + Sensor Heat?

[Talley]

So I’m 90% photos.

This means I should move on and not care right?

 

[WilliamG]

So I’m 90% photos.

This means I should move on and not care right?

Indeed it does. I'm 90% photos, too.

 

[eukaryote]

Sensor's get HOT my friend. DJI had to find a way to pack that "big" 1inch-type sensor into a VERY tiny little cube....AND!....find some way to keep it from burning up.

Answer?....don't uses the whole sensor. Leave a portion of it untouched.

Just the laws of physics. Sony, the company that makes this sensor is famous for fighting heat problems on many of their Alpha bodies. DJI is no different.

I suspect THIS was the reason why the original DJI "See The Bigger Picture" event was moved so suddenly. (just a guess folks!)

It's funny that due to heat the m2p has worse video quality at fov then other 1/2.3 sensor drones

 

[WilliamG]

It's funny that due to heat the m2p has worse video quality at fov then other 1/2.3 sensor drones

Allegedly. Let's wait for this to pan out before we jump to any conclusions.

 

[eukaryote]

Allegedly. Let's wait for this to pan out before we jump to any conclusions.

Looking at footage I have no doubt the m2p sensor is crippled for video. Most of my work is for photography so I'm not too sad, but it's a pity that such an expensive drone loses out to much cheaper 4k drones using smaller sensors

 

[VintageSlots]

I have done some lab comparisons between the Mavic-2-Pro, Mavic-2 Zoom and Phantom 4 Pro and have come up with some shocking results.

In my video, I theorize that DJI is doing a "line skipping" and/or "pixel binning" technique that significantly degrades it's image quality in 4k video mode. I have clearly demonstrated this and I and even theorized that this was done and an emergency measure to solve a sensor over-heating problem stemming from a possible design issue of the new Hasselblad 1inch-type sensor camera.

Here are some of the points I discuss in this video:

• Mavic-2 Pro has a 1 inch-type sensor....but does NOT use that full sensor surface area in either "HQ" or FOV mode. (customers are not "truly" using a full 1inch-type sensor in video mode like the Phantom 4 Pro does)
• Mavic-2 Pro "line skips" and/or "pixel binns" as a very crude scaling solution to reduce a potential over-heating problem of this sensor? No other explanation for it aside from marketing cripple trick.
• Mavic-2 Pro does NOT use the full sensor area in "HQ" to again, solve an a possible overheating design flaw on the camera body?
• Mavic-2 Pro's "4K" FOV wide mode has no more real, actual resolution than it's 2.7k recording mode! (demonstrated in stationary, identical scene recordings with zoom-in examination)
• I love the Mavic-2 Pro and I am NOT "trashing" it, but I do feel it has been heavily "crippled".

There is also a full length video on my channel right next to this one.

What do you guys think? I did give DJI 1 week to watch this privately and give me their feedback. There were 76 views all within DJI internally but they declined to comment.

CT

Did you really expect them to reply?

They won't even acknowledge the features they removed on the MP2 over the MP.

 

[gnirtS]

So I’m 90% photos.

This means I should move on and not care right?

Correct. Not an issue. Its a good little camera.
It also produces video of vastly better quality than Mavic 1.

 

[Mavic - Pilot]

Lols - thanks, but I kind of do want P4 quality (and ideally 4K60 like the Autel Evo), even though I have to confess I don't like almost anything else about those Phantoms. Perhaps that's a little unfair, but I still haven't quite forgiven DJI for the 2 NPE flyaways I had on their Naza M2 units 4 years back !

So I'm afraid I'm the proverbial 'traitor in your midst' at the moment, flying as I do now a Yuneec Typhoon H. There are things I really like about that camera and craft as well (360 degree gimbal is a total winner) but I have been lured back by the sheer video quality of the new Mavics, and so I have joined here to 'monitor their status' and see how they get on in the real world before I take the plunge and reinvest in DJI. With that in mind, this video is more helpful to me than you might think !

Hey same thing here, I bought the Typhoon H as my first drone over the DJI Phantom 3 4K ( P4 was just too expensive). But Yuneec has some software issues, and when some guy in a Vegas Drone shop showed me the Mavics capabilities, I was hooked. And then I waited for an entire year for the M2P.

 

[Sockeye]

For me as a film maker it is a deal breaker. 1" Sensor for video...Ha Ha. I presume I will return it and buy the bulky P4P.
And I will definitely not wait until the P5 is released, with who knows what marketing promises, that dissolve as soon as the beta testers (we) reveal the truth...

 

[Cliff_622]

The "HQ" mode is pretty good. It's a good clean image with good detail. The problem is that you are forced into an almost 40mm (35mm equivalent) field of view to get it. That sucks for some of my work where I need a decent wide angle. FOV wide on this is pretty bad. I'll take my Zoom at 24mm for that work over M-2 Pro FOV wide.

If you can live with almost 40mm shooting than your 4k video will be nice.

CT

 

[endless_shutters]

Thinking about returning my unopened M2P after watching this. What a shame

 

[gnirtS]

Why not actually try and use the product than deciding on unknown, subjective, unverified random people on youtube?

You aren't submitting footage to NatGeo here.

 

[endless_shutters]

Why not actually try and use the product than deciding on unknown, subjective, unverified random people on youtube?

You aren't submitting footage to NatGeo here.

While you're right that I'm not submitting footage to Nat Geo, this video is consistent with other comparison videos from different sources. Hard to justify paying almost double for a new crippled M2P over a lightly used P4P with a proven track record

 

[gnirtS]

Thats one hell of a guess to make given you dont actually have the slightest evidence of relative video quality or any actual real world effects.
Still its your choice, a fairly odd reactionary one but your choice.

 

[Roamer105]

This whole thread sounds like US politics. If you want to prove what you think is true... very simple, you always can.

I have no argument that doubling and binning occurs when recording full FOV of the 5K sensor. The same is true for any resolution or aspect other than 1:1 for any camera out there including P4P. We also know for sure that HQ is a cropped subset (1:1) of the sensor that is read out full in that case. There is no way that Hasselblad would have put their name on this camera if some sinister tricks had been used to cheat.

I also can’t believe that Hasselblad would get a 10bit readout and compromise everything else in the process. That on its face would be absurd and complete market synicism. Too much even for DJI.

My .02.

 

[endless_shutters]

This whole thread sounds like US politics. If you want to prove what you think is true... very simple, you always can.

I have no argument that doubling and binning occurs when recording full FOV of the 5K sensor. The same is true for any resolution or aspect other than 1:1 for any camera out there including P4P. We also know for sure that HQ is a cropped subset (1:1) of the sensor that is read out full in that case. There is no way that Hasselblad would have put their name on this camera if some sinister tricks had been used to cheat.

I also can’t believe that Hasselblad would get a 10bit readout and compromise everything else in the process. That on its face would be absurd and complete market synicism. Too much even for DJI.

My .02.

From what I got out of the video, it doesnt sound like the OP is implying sinister trickery was done on the part of DJI or Hasselblad. My understanding of his hypothesis is there are either marketing reasons for limiting the capability of the M2P, or more likely physical limitations (sensor heat) that could not be eliminated through engineering (perhaps because of time constraints) thus the need to apply limitations on the image processing by skipping/binning/cropping.

I would certainly like to see more tests done by others and hear DJI comment on this information (however unlikely), but again what was demonstrated in the OPs video is consistent with other less detailed comparisons made by others.

 

[msavic6]

This whole thread sounds like US politics. If you want to prove what you think is true... very simple, you always can.

I have no argument that doubling and binning occurs when recording full FOV of the 5K sensor. The same is true for any resolution or aspect other than 1:1 for any camera out there including P4P. We also know for sure that HQ is a cropped subset (1:1) of the sensor that is read out full in that case. There is no way that Hasselblad would have put their name on this camera if some sinister tricks had been used to cheat.

I also can’t believe that Hasselblad would get a 10bit readout and compromise everything else in the process. That on its face would be absurd and complete market synicism. Too much even for DJI.

My .02.

Unfortunately Hasselblad no longer has a say in what happens with their name. DJI bought a majority stake in the company a little while back and they now call the shots. Frankly I don’t think Hasselblad ever would have put their name on a tiny 1 inch sensor camera let alone a drone. It also worries me that the Hasselblad name will be watered down by DJI’s decisions. Beyond the colour science, the M2P does not exhibit any “Hasselblad-like” properties and in some cases is worse than the no-name branded lens on the P4P Camera.

 

[Donnie Frank]

I have done some lab comparisons between the Mavic-2-Pro, Mavic-2 Zoom and Phantom 4 Pro and have come up with some shocking results.

In my video, I theorize that DJI is doing a "line skipping" and/or "pixel binning" technique that significantly degrades it's image quality in 4k video mode. I have clearly demonstrated this and I and even theorized that this was done and an emergency measure to solve a sensor over-heating problem stemming from a possible design issue of the new Hasselblad 1inch-type sensor camera.

Here are some of the points I discuss in this video:

• Mavic-2 Pro has a 1 inch-type sensor....but does NOT use that full sensor surface area in either "HQ" or FOV mode. (customers are not "truly" using a full 1inch-type sensor in video mode like the Phantom 4 Pro does)
• Mavic-2 Pro "line skips" and/or "pixel binns" as a very crude scaling solution to reduce a potential over-heating problem of this sensor? No other explanation for it aside from marketing cripple trick.
• Mavic-2 Pro does NOT use the full sensor area in "HQ" to again, solve an a possible overheating design flaw on the camera body?
• Mavic-2 Pro's "4K" FOV wide mode has no more real, actual resolution than it's 2.7k recording mode! (demonstrated in stationary, identical scene recordings with zoom-in examination)
• I love the Mavic-2 Pro and I am NOT "trashing" it, but I do feel it has been heavily "crippled".

There is also a full length video on my channel right next to this one.

What do you guys think? I did give DJI 1 week to watch this privately and give me their feedback. There were 76 views all within DJI internally but they declined to comment.

CT

Your description of "Pixel binning" sounds like you're describing compression algorithms - specifically h.264 compression. What would be interesting is to shoot your same circle board with single photos in RAW mode. Does the "pixel binning" go away? If so, we can safely say that the "binning" is an artifact of the compression algorithm, and not the sensor and/or camera itself.

The difference between the P4P v2 vs. the Mavic-2 Pro VIDEO quality may be a direct result of how much compression they're using. These can be seen in the bitrates. For the P4P, max bitrate is 100Mbps.

P4P v2 advertised bitrates, which are about maxed out for any MicroSD card offerings:

H.265
C4K:4096×2160 24/25/30p @100Mbps
4K:3840×2160 24/25/30p @100Mbps
2.7K:2720×1530 24/25/30p @65Mbps
2.7K:2720×1530 48/50/60p @80Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 24/25/30p @50Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 48/50/60p @65Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 120p @100Mbps
HD:1280×720 24/25/30p @25Mbps
HD:1280×720 48/50/60p @35Mbps
HD:1280×720 120p @60Mbps

H.264
C4K:4096×2160 24/25/30/48/50/60p @100Mbps
4K:3840×2160 24/25/30/48/50/60p @100Mbps
2.7K:2720×1530 24/25/30p @80Mbps
2.7K:2720×1530 48/50/60p @100Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 24/25/30p @60Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 48/50/60 @80Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 120p @100Mbps
HD:1280×720 24/25/30p @30Mbps
HD:1280×720 48/50/60p @45Mbps
HD:1280×720 120p @80Mbps
---------------------------------------------

Conversely, while the MAX bitrate for the Mavic 2 Pro is ALSO 100Mbps, their spec page is conspicuously missing the bitrate specifications:

4K: 3840×2160 24/25/30p
2.7K: 2688x1512 24/25/30/48/50/60p
FHD: 1920×1080 24/25/30/48/50/60/120p

To me, this suggests that the bitrates are not static like the P4P, but are instead dynamic, which may cover a full range of bitrates - perhaps as low as 30Mbps.

Any thoughts?

A bit off topic...

I did a shoot of a bridge over a gorge a couple years ago with my Inspire-1, X3 camera (1/2.3" sensor). We shot in 4K. Showing the footage back to the Director on my HP Laptop, there was a ton of Moire effect on the bridge girders. I tried to explain to him that this was caused by scaling 4K video down to a 1080p screen. I even digitally zoomed to a 1:1 ratio so he could see the Moire effect go away. He never did get it.

I wish I had a 4K monitor to watch your video.

UPDATE: I hit the "watch on T.V." icon, and it sent the video to my 4K Television. Awesome. Good video! Nice job. With the 4K, 65" television, I can really see what you mean.

D

 

[SteelFlyer]

Can you please post a link to this video on YouTube? For the life of me, I cannot get the video to play sound on my iPad.

 

[Cliff_622]

Your description of "Pixel binning" sounds like you're describing compression algorithms - specifically h.264 compression. What would be interesting is to shoot your same circle board with single photos in RAW mode. Does the "pixel binning" go away? If so, we can safely say that the "binning" is an artifact of the compression algorithm, and not the sensor and/or camera itself.

The difference between the P4P v2 vs. the Mavic-2 Pro VIDEO quality may be a direct result of how much compression they're using. These can be seen in the bitrates. For the P4P, max bitrate is 100Mbps.

P4P v2 advertised bitrates, which are about maxed out for any MicroSD card offerings:

H.265
C4K:4096×2160 24/25/30p @100Mbps
4K:3840×2160 24/25/30p @100Mbps
2.7K:2720×1530 24/25/30p @65Mbps
2.7K:2720×1530 48/50/60p @80Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 24/25/30p @50Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 48/50/60p @65Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 120p @100Mbps
HD:1280×720 24/25/30p @25Mbps
HD:1280×720 48/50/60p @35Mbps
HD:1280×720 120p @60Mbps

H.264
C4K:4096×2160 24/25/30/48/50/60p @100Mbps
4K:3840×2160 24/25/30/48/50/60p @100Mbps
2.7K:2720×1530 24/25/30p @80Mbps
2.7K:2720×1530 48/50/60p @100Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 24/25/30p @60Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 48/50/60 @80Mbps
FHD:1920×1080 120p @100Mbps
HD:1280×720 24/25/30p @30Mbps
HD:1280×720 48/50/60p @45Mbps
HD:1280×720 120p @80Mbps
---------------------------------------------

Conversely, while the MAX bitrate for the Mavic 2 Pro is ALSO 100Mbps, their spec page is conspicuously missing the bitrate specifications:

4K: 3840×2160 24/25/30p
2.7K: 2688x1512 24/25/30/48/50/60p
FHD: 1920×1080 24/25/30/48/50/60/120p

To me, this suggests that the bitrates are not static like the P4P, but are instead dynamic, which may cover a full range of bitrates - perhaps as low as 30Mbps.

Any thoughts?

A bit off topic...

I did a shoot of a bridge over a gorge a couple years ago with my Inspire-1, X3 camera (1/2.3" sensor). We shot in 4K. Showing the footage back to the Director on my HP Laptop, there was a ton of Moire effect on the bridge girders. I tried to explain to him that this was caused by scaling 4K video down to a 1080p screen. I even digitally zoomed to a 1:1 ratio so he could see the Moire effect go away. He never did get it.

I wish I had a 4K monitor to watch your video.

UPDATE: I hit the "watch on T.V." icon, and it sent the video to my 4K Television. Awesome. Good video! Nice job. With the 4K, 65" television, I can really see what you mean.

D

Pixel binning happens WAY before video compression ever gets it. Its a tactic for raw sensor scanning. It clusters photosites on the sensor "checkerboard" and sums multiple values together into one number.. This happens before the signal is ever made into video and long BEFORE h.264 compression ever gets to see it. H.264 or H.265 or 60mbp/s vs 100mbp/s has nothing to do with it.

CT