Mavic Pro II - New Image Sensor?

[Cliff_622]

So, I'm thinking about the current Sony 1/2.3 image sensor that DJI seems to be very fond of. It's very good for it's small size. However,...where can DJI go from here? If the Mavic Pro-II uses the same sensor again, we are NOT going to see any signal to noise ratio or dynamic range performance over the current sensor. It's not the technologies fault, it's just "maxed-out" for it's "size". This is all you are ever going to get unless you lower the pixel count and increase the photosite pitch. (will never happen as it's already minimum needed for 4k)

Introducing the Sony STARVIS IMX266! (a fully back lit BSI EXMOR sensor)
https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor0/img/product/cmos/IMX226CQJ_Flyer.pdf

So where does DJI go from here? Answer, the next common sensor size UP! This would be the 1/1.7. Sony has a new EXMOR Starvis sensor in their catalog that will fit the bill!

So what would we get for this larger sensor?

1.) 1.85 micron photosites. Potentially 1.5x larger photosites than the current 1/2.3 sensor that DJI is using today.
2.) Higher signal to noise ratio = less noise reduction scrubbing the detail out of your image.
3.) Higher Dynamic range. Maybe a solid 10stops? (or only 1 stop less than the P4P's 1inch-type sensor)
4.) 60p UHD AND DCI 4k!
3) This sensor can even output 10bit color sampling! (no, DJI will not enable it)

So that's it. If DJI is going to move the Mavic Pro-II forward, keep it ABOVE the Air and BELOW the Phantom 5, this is the image sensor that is going to complete that mission. I really hope DJI takes a hard look at this sensor and increasing the Mavic Pro-II's image quality. It's going to be a huge bummer if all they do is to add 100mbp/s to match the Air's bit rate. If they recycle the same Air image sensor than there will be no actual image quality improvements over the cheaper Air. And the Phantom 4/5 will maintain a HUGE image quality leap over both Mavics when all is said in done. (I'm hoping the Phantom 5 gets 10bit color depth)

What do you guys think? It's January 25 2018 and I'm calling it now for the record. ;-)

 

[Garuda]

Very intresting reading, really hope that DJI release a "Mavic"-segment drone with a 1" image sensor or more...that would be absolutely a dream machine!

 

[Cliff_622]

Anything is "possible" but that 1inch-type sensor is a Sony gold mine for the Phantom 4 Pro. It's pretty much it's image quality claim to fame. 5k full pixel readout and Sony scaling engine down rezing to 4k? That baby has 11 stops of dynamic range and 2300+ lines of actual resolving power. The only drone sensor anywhere that can match that is the Inspire-II. If you take that advantage away from the P4P or P5P and give it to a cheaper drone, the Phantom 4 and 5 are almost dead. Also, Sony probably charges ALLOT more for that sensor because of it's size and the technology it has than it does for the current 1/2.3. (this is guaranteed) It's 400% larger, state of the art and more expensive to manufacturer. It might drive the cost of the Mavic Pro-II higher than DJI want's to place it. It will also get hotter and has higher power draw. (eats more battery) I seriously,..seriously doubt that DJI will install that 1inch-type beast in the Mavic Pro-II.

But this new Sony IMX266 is a SOLID middle ground between the 1inch-type and current 1/2.3 chip! It's almost a no brainer for DJI.

I dunno,...just spit-balling out loud here.

 

[cranngel]

Or the Phantom 5 could go to a 4/3 16 mbit or 20 mbit sensor and have Mavic go to a 1" sensor ... we can hope

 

[lannes]

Or the Phantom 5 could go to a 4/3 16 mbit or 20 mbit sensor and have Mavic to to a 1" sensor ... we can hope

+1 this would be the way to go, really differentiate the Mavic 2

 

[ForeverFree]

So, I'm thinking about the current Sony 1/2.3 image sensor that DJI seems to be very fond of. It's very good for it's small size. However,...where can DJI go from here? If the Mavic Pro-II uses the same sensor again, we are NOT going to see any signal to noise ratio or dynamic range performance over the current sensor. It's not the technologies fault, it's just "maxed-out" for it's "size". This is all you are ever going to get unless you lower the pixel count and increase the photosite pitch. (will never happen as it's already minimum needed for 4k)

Introducing the Sony STARVIS IMX266! (a fully back lit BSI EXMOR sensor)
https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor0/img/product/cmos/IMX226CQJ_Flyer.pdf

So where does DJI go from here? Answer, the next common sensor size UP! This would be the 1/1.7. Sony has a new EXMOR Starvis sensor in their catalog that will fit the bill!

So what would we get for this larger sensor?

1.) 1.85 micron photosites. Potentially 1.5x larger photosites than the current 1/2.3 sensor that DJI is using today.
2.) Higher signal to noise ratio = less noise reduction scrubbing the detail out of your image.
3.) Higher Dynamic range. Maybe a solid 10stops? (or only 1 stop less than the P4P's 1inch-type sensor)
4.) 60p UHD AND DCI 4k!
3) This sensor can even output 10bit color sampling! (no, DJI will not enable it)

So that's it. If DJI is going to move the Mavic Pro-II forward, keep it ABOVE the Air and BELOW the Phantom 5, this is the image sensor that is going to complete that mission. I really hope DJI takes a hard look at this sensor and increasing the Mavic Pro-II's image quality. It's going to be a huge bummer if all they do is to add 100mbp/s to match the Air's bit rate. If they recycle the same Air image sensor than there will be no actual image quality improvements over the cheaper Air. And the Phantom 4/5 will maintain a HUGE image quality leap over both Mavics when all is said in done. (I'm hoping the Phantom 5 gets 10bit color depth)

What do you guys think? It's January 25 2018 and I'm calling it now for the record. ;-)

+1. Biggest desire for Mavic 2 is improved camera. Love everything else about the Mavic package but am mystified why the images it captures are so much weaker than from an iPhone, which must make due with a much smaller camera system.

 

[4wd]

Ideally they would run a larger sensor such as on high end compacts e.g. Sony RX100V
Not sure it's possible on a compact style drone though, you'd also want quality lenses, then cost and weight begin to be an issue.
No denying camera is the one thing that most needs considerable improvement anyway.

 

[Cliff_622]

Ideally they would run a larger sensor such as on high end compacts e.g. Sony RX100V
Not sure it's possible on a compact style drone though, you'd also want quality lenses, then cost and weight begin to be an issue.
No denying camera is the one thing that most needs considerable improvement anyway.

The Phantom 4 Pro uses that Sony 1inch-type sensor you are talking about. The 1inch-type "R" models is the second generation Sony chip. They now make a third gen "RS". The "RS" is fully stacked BSI architecture with an ultra fast read clock and on board RAM. The Phantom Pro 5 could be the next to use that Sony sensor.

Remember, the 1inch-type sensor is over FOUR times larger than the Mavic Air or Mavic Pro's current sensor. Not only that, the 1inch-type R and RS have MUCH more sophisticated architecture and processing too.

However, these 1inch-type Sony sensors are MUCH more expensive than the current 1/2.3 that DJI is buying for the Mavic Air and Pro today. This would increase the production costs of the Mavic Pro-II. If you look at the Phantom 4 Pro camera, lens and gimbal, it's MUCH larger and heavier than what you could install on a Mavic Pro today. Plus that camera body is made of a heat-sync material to keep it cool. (aluminum or magnesium?) The Phantom 4 Pro also has all more battery power to drive that bigger sensor as well. It's 5k image processing and more advcanced 4k CODEC also require more juice too.

So, it would be a tall order to install a complete imaging system like this into a small Mavic Pro-II and still give it 25min of flight time. (And do this without killing the more expensive Phantom line???)

It think my idea of DJI using a larger 1/1.7 Sony IMX266 Exmor 4k 60p sensor is one that I hope DJI looks at seriously. That would not reach 1inch-type performance but it would be a good step up from the current 1/2.3 chips they are buying today.

IMX226CQJ | Sony Semiconductor Solutions

CT

 

[Cliff_622]

So,...dang. After reading allot of rumor sites and seeing that Autel is working on an EVO variant with a 1inch-type sensor. I'm thinking I could be wrong about the Mavic Pro-II not having a 1inch-type sensor.

Here I'm thinking they will move up to a 1/1.7 and how great that would be,...but it seems that are going to bypass that and go straight for the throat!

Wow,...this is gutsy! It makes we wonder if it was Autel that pressured DJI to do this???

If they do this for the Mavic Pro-II, then this becomes "all-everything" drone that just about about everybody will buy. I mean it becomes the "drone to end all drones" lol

Are they going to price this thing in Phantom 4/5 territory?...and leave the current Mavic Pro where it sits today? We can certainly say that the Phantom 4 Pro will be completely dead. Where does this leave the Phantom 5? What would the P5 have that we could "really" want? Enough to make us buy and lug that thing around? I love my P4P but I hate traveling with it and I hate the attention it draws when I fly. I suffer through all this because it has the ONE and ONLY thing I want,....a 1inch-type sensor! If you give this sensor to me in small folding Mavic Pro-II, there is NO reason left for me to own the P4P.

Now,...the P4P has both H.264 and HEVC h.265 at 100mbp/s. Today I shoot entirely in HEVC and it's SUPER clean encoding. If you locked a Mavic Pro-II down with 100Mbp/s h.264 only....I dont think that HEVC upgrade on the Phantom is enough to keep me using it. 100mb/s is STILL pretty **** goo behind that Sony 1inch-type sensor.

I just have to think that the Mavic Pro-II is literally a Phantom 4 and 5 KILLER. I cant see any reason for most people to buy a Phontom 5 if the Mavic Pro-II has the same sensor. Even if DJI tried to attract us with Phantom 5 10bit color at 150mbp/s wouldn't work. Even with removable lenses, It just wont be enough for 75% of Phantom owners to stay in the Phantom form factor.

Wow!,...your thoughts?

 

[FlashGJ]

I was directly told by Autel that the 1” sensor for the Evo was only a prototype and will not be in it when released. Therefore, DJI is under no pressure to use the 1” sensor in the Mavic Pro II. But most people agree that camera is the most important thing on the Mavic that needs to be upgraded. I say forget about adding additional sensors, just give me a better camera! And if DJI can’t do it, hopefully down the road, Autel can.

 

[Cliff_622]

Yup, saw that it was a prototype. And yeah, installing that sensor is going to take allot of work to keep cool. It's going to require heat syncs behind it or mounted directly to a very heat conductive metal body. Like Phantom Pro 4 does. If they moved that same P4P camera and gimbal design over to the Mavic Pro-II then it's going to look a little weird. I dunno,...we'll see. I wonder if Yuneec is also working on a 1inch-type sensor. I would expect Sony to be going to all the drone companies saying "Hey,...you want to buy our 1inch-type sensor? If so, we will help you out and make that happen." (To sell more sensors)

Now,...hmmm...if Sony started selling to other drone companies and told DJI they were doing so, that would pressure DJI to jump on the band wagon....and that is where Sony would REALLY make it's money. Heck,..If Sony GAVE Autel 5,000 1inch-type sensors for FREE and helped them implement it. That could "force" DJI to purchase 500,000+ from Sony! (That would be a creative way to "inspire" a huge customer like DJI to buy new sensors from Sony...DJI is where the "real" money is for Sony) lol . That would be hilarious! Hmmm....I doubt Sony would play dirty like that! ;-)

If a company like Autel is doing a tiny, cool running, 1inch-type 4k camera. I'm SURE Sony is giving them allot of design help on the back end. ;-)

Sony want's to sell image sensors. Higher priced chips = more Sony profit. Sometimes you gotta play hard ball ;-)

Yeah, this sensor is 4 times larger than the all too common DJI 1/2.3 today. Could you imagine a Mavic Pro-II with that P4P sensor? Wow,...you wouldn't need anything more for at least a solid year.

CT

 

[DCDronePilot]

I was directly told by Autel that the 1” sensor for the Evo was only a prototype and will not be in it when released. Therefore, DJI is under no pressure to use the 1” sensor in the Mavic Pro II. But most people agree that camera is the most important thing on the Mavic that needs to be upgraded. I say forget about adding additional sensors, just give me a better camera! And if DJI can’t do it, hopefully down the road, Autel can.

I talked to Autel today, and they said the Evo will have the 1” sensor but not until a month or so after the first Evo is released. It will be a separate Evo drone.

 

[FlashGJ]

I talked to Autel today, and they said the Evo will have the 1” sensor but not until a month or so after the first Evo is released. It will be a separate Evo drone.

That is different than what they told me, but I do hope you are right. They could have easily changed their marketing strategy after hearing and reading that there is so much demand for a better sensor in the foldable drones. The first company to put a better sensor in a folding drone, will in no doubt, sell a bunch of them!

 

[Gray_seagull]

I was directly told by Autel that the 1” sensor for the Evo was only a prototype and will not be in it when released. Therefore, DJI is under no pressure to use the 1” sensor in the Mavic Pro II. But most people agree that camera is the most important thing on the Mavic that needs to be upgraded. I say forget about adding additional sensors, just give me a better camera! And if DJI can’t do it, hopefully down the road, Autel can.

Autel might use this 1" sensor as wild card against dji especially they already have a working prototype. Think about it, if dji doesn't release the MP2 with the 1" sensor then Autel announces the production of theirs
Heads will be turned

 

[Cliff_622]

And that is why Sony will "help" Autel build their 1inch-type camera system.....

Not because they "love" Autel or for the little money Autel will give Sony....

Sony will help them build it so that the BIG MONEY company (DJI) will be pressured to buy them...

Making ALL drone companies need to buy the amazing 1inch-type Sony Exmor R image sensors..,

Im not putting down Autel. But,..I doubt they would be able to implement a highly complex sensor like this on their own without Sony camera engineers giving them "guidence".

Haha....wow

 

[MarceloLi]

Yesterday I had an interesting conversation with a person working in the drone industry, he stated the Mavic Pro II is already in production.

The drone will be announced in March and April on shelves, little bigger than the actual Mavic Pro and 1" sensor camera (he don't know how many MP), the design and other specifications very similar to the actual model.

The guy is legit but I am not sure if DJI will put at risk the sales of the P4P if they go with the 1' sensor? provably will be a 1' sensor with 12 or 14 MP?

I was ready to buy a P4P Obsidian and now I am waiting for the Mavic II, love the portability of this drone.

About the EVO, Autel already stated they wont release a 1' sensor in the new drone, the one that have in display was just a pre production model.

What you guys think about it?

 

[Cliff_622]

Yesterday I had an interesting conversation with a person working in the drone industry, he stated the Mavic Pro II is already in production.

The drone will be announced in March and April on shelves, little bigger than the actual Mavic Pro and 1" sensor camera (he don't know how many MP), the design and other specifications very similar to the actual model.

The guy is legit but I am not sure if DJI will put at risk the sales of the P4P if they go with the 1' sensor? provably will be a 1' sensor with 12 or 14 MP?

I was ready to buy a P4P Obsidian and now I am waiting for the Mavic II, love the portability of this drone.

About the EVO, Autel already stated they wont release a 1' sensor in the new drone, the one that have in display was just a pre production model.

What you guys think about it?

I think that so many rumors and chatter is pointing to that Mavic Pro-II getting the 1inch-type sensor that I fully believe ot now.

Yes, the Mavic Pro-II WILL canabolize the Phantom 4 Pro...and DJI "wants" it too!!

I believe the Pro-II is the "new" P4P market. The Phantom 5 will be designed canabolize the Inspire market!

I think DJI's plan is to shove these two drones one level above where they both sit today.

Im expecting the Mavic Pro-II to have a considerably higher sticker price. (In the $1500 range) and the Phantom 5 to be in the $2500 range.

DJI now has the lower market fully stocked and the two new drones will target higher pros.

Just my guess.

 

[MarceloLi]

I think that so many rumors and chatter is pointing to that Mavic Pro-II getting the 1inch-type sensor that I fully believe ot now.

Yes, the Mavic Pro-II WILL canabolize the Phantom 4 Pro...and DJI "wants" it too!!

I believe the Pro-II is the "new" P4P market. The Phantom 5 will be designed canabolize the Inspire market!

I think DJI's plan is to shove these two drones one level above where they both sit today.

Im expecting the Mavic Pro-II to have a considerably higher sticker price. (In the $1500 range) and the Phantom 5 to be in the $2500 range.

DJI now has the lower market fully stocked and the two new drones will target higher pros.

Just my guess.

Cliff, I agree with you about the desire of DJI to eliminate the P4P from the map and take it to another level.

That will give some room to the Mavic Pro to grow and also to create a totally new P4P.

What makes me think is if the sensor of the new Mavic Pro II will be similar to the P4P or one step down?, I am not sure if I should wait or just buy now the Obsidian that I already decided to buy it I hate this kind of dilemas in my life..!!

 

[Gray_seagull]

I think that so many rumors and chatter is pointing to that Mavic Pro-II getting the 1inch-type sensor that I fully believe ot now.

Yes, the Mavic Pro-II WILL canabolize the Phantom 4 Pro...and DJI "wants" it too!!

I believe the Pro-II is the "new" P4P market. The Phantom 5 will be designed canabolize the Inspire market!

I think DJI's plan is to shove these two drones one level above where they both sit today.

Im expecting the Mavic Pro-II to have a considerably higher sticker price. (In the $1500 range) and the Phantom 5 to be in the $2500 range.

DJI now has the lower market fully stocked and the two new drones will target higher pros.

Just my guess.

I think that so many rumors and chatter is pointing to that Mavic Pro-II getting the 1inch-type sensor that I fully believe ot now.

Yes, the Mavic Pro-II WILL canabolize the Phantom 4 Pro...and DJI "wants" it too!!

I believe the Pro-II is the "new" P4P market. The Phantom 5 will be designed canabolize the Inspire market!

I think DJI's plan is to shove these two drones one level above where they both sit today.

Im expecting the Mavic Pro-II to have a considerably higher sticker price. (In the $1500 range) and the Phantom 5 to be in the $2500 range.

DJI now has the lower market fully stocked and the two new drones will target higher pros.

Just my guess.

makes sense

 

[Cliff_622]

makes sense

So if you guys are thinking about what the Mavic Pro-II will have, so can start thinking with this:

DJI has stated that the new Air DOES use the Phontom 4 Pro's image processor! DJI could take the Air's motherboard with all its software programming and port it over to a larger body and battery Mavic Pro-II. They add the Sony 1inch-type Exmor R sensor, a chip they already know and BOOM...product finished! 90% of the R&D is already completed. Im fully convinced that the new Air and Pro-II were developed TOGETHER by the same team at the same time. Im betting all the parts ELECTRONICS were designed and sourced to be SHARED on the same assembly line to keep costs down. (With the exception of obvious body part differences...but they have the same "guts" and software code.)

So why make a Phantom 5? Well?...there is room to grow there as well! Buy a new Sony RS 1inch-type sensor! The RS is the latest model that has faster readout and RAM on board. The Phantom 5 could be given Sony's 240, 480 and 960 frames per second cached recording mode. DJI could give the Phantom 5...10bit color in a 150mbp/s CODEC!! Same as the Lumix GH5! How about full size SDXC cards. Doing 10bit recording would make color grading spectacular in log gamma!!

And of course....a lens mount with 4 removable lens options. 15, 24, 35 and 50mm. Yeah....that is a $2500 camera that will still smoke a very awesome Mavic Pro-II