New flyer question on 400' rules

[Roaming Troll]

Been flying the Mini 2 for about 3 weeks now. Today's outing got me looking for some clarification of a couple things. First one is the 400' from structures. From the attached photo I believe I am supposed to stay 400' away from the railroad trestle and the road bridge beyond it, no flying down the tracks between the rails or under the trestle trying to get awesome shots. Would that all be correct?

Second item is the 400' agl for this type of location. As you can see the train tracks, and the road bridge just beyond, are about 50' above where I am standing. I was wondering, does the 400' AGL apply to my level or would it be from the level of the tracks and roadway?

 

[dronerdave]

Recreational rules say 400' max from the surface, not a structure. Measurment is directly below the drone. Not sure about the RR tracks. It probably depends on if it's considered critical infrastructure.

 

[MS Coast]

There are no lateral distance clearance requirements from structures. Part 107 pilots can fly up to 400' above a structure (outside controlled airspace) if the drone remains within 400 feet laterally of the structure.

The general 400' maximum altitude limit is relative to the ground directly below the drone, never to the takeoff altitude. The altitude shown on the controller is always relative to the takeoff altitude.

I'd avoid flying under bridges until you have more time with the Mini 3. There have been a number of stories posted here about flights below bridges that didn't end well.

(One thing I noticed when first flying drones is that depth perception gets problematic with distance. That is, it's hard to judge where the drone is relative to things like power lines, ground features, buildings, and such.)

Enjoy that new Mini 3.

 

[Vic Moss]

As others have said, it's 400' AGL, that means "above ground level".

Also, make sure you get your FAA TRUST certificate. It's required by law, free, and you can't fail it. Plus it has all kinds of great info in it.

Take it here: FAA TRUST Online Portal for Recreational Drone Operators - Pilot Institute

 

[Vic Moss]

Recreational rules say 400' max from the surface, not a structure. Measurment is directly below the drone. Not sure about the RR tracks. It probably depends on if it's considered critical infrastructure.

Railroad tracks aren't considered critical infrastructure. Basic property rules and not flying over people in moving vehicles apply, but we can fly over their tracks all day long as long as we don't interfere with operations. Some railyard guards will say otherwise, but they're wrong.

 

[YVRGUY]

There are no lateral distance clearance requirements from structures. Part 107 pilots can fly up to 400' above a structure (outside controlled airspace) if the drone remains within 400 feet laterally of the structure.

The general 400' maximum altitude limit is relative to the ground directly below the drone, never to the takeoff altitude. The altitude shown on the controller is always relative to the takeoff altitude.

I'd avoid flying under bridges until you have more time with the Mini 3. There have been a number of stories posted here about flights below bridges that didn't end well.

(One thing I noticed when first flying drones is that depth perception gets problematic with distance. That is, it's hard to judge where the drone is relative to things like power lines, ground features, buildings, and such.)

Enjoy that new Mini 3.

Also, don’t forget the caught fishing lines that have been left dangling from the bridge deck overhangs…they’ll take you out real good.

 

[Lets Fly]

Also, don’t forget the caught fishing lines that have been left dangling from the bridge deck overhangs…they’ll take you out real good.

Great point, this is the often overlooked danger.

 

[vindibona1]

There are no lateral distance clearance requirements from structures. Part 107 pilots can fly up to 400' above a structure (outside controlled airspace) if the drone remains within 400 feet laterally of the structure.

The general 400' maximum altitude limit is relative to the ground directly below the drone, never to the takeoff altitude. The altitude shown on the controller is always relative to the takeoff altitude.

I'd avoid flying under bridges until you have more time with the Mini 3. There have been a number of stories posted here about flights below bridges that didn't end well.

(One thing I noticed when first flying drones is that depth perception gets problematic with distance. That is, it's hard to judge where the drone is relative to things like power lines, ground features, buildings, and such.)

Enjoy that new Mini 3.

The one exception that I recall in regard to staying away from "structures" is the 2000' distance when it comes to guy wires, if you want to call a guy wire a structure... But it supports a structure, so I suppose that would include the structure as well.

You make an excellent point about depth perception. It's problematic when the drone is moving directly away from you, but even more problematic when the drone is away from you, but moving across where there are objects that may or may not be in the drone's path. I've had very few crashes, but the most decisive crash I've had is when I was trying to fly a path that "jogged" between trees. I thought my drone had gone fully past a tree when it hadn't and turned left before it had cleared and got snagged by a branch.

I suppose that one of the advantages of the "radar display" of the APAS system (not available on Mini 1 or 2) is that it can tell you how far you are from an object you are appoaching. But no sideways sensors on most models. Wouldn't it be great if DJI installed low res "side view cameras" so you could, via split screen tell when you've fully passed an object?

 

[MS Coast]

The one exception that I recall in regard to staying away from "structures" is the 2000' distance when it comes to guy wires, if you want to call a guy wire a structure... But it supports a structure, so I suppose that would include the structure as well.

You make an excellent point about depth perception. It's problematic when the drone is moving directly away from you, but even more problematic when the drone is away from you, but moving across where there are objects that may or may not be in the drone's path. I've had very few crashes, but the most decisive crash I've had is when I was trying to fly a path that "jogged" between trees. I thought my drone had gone fully past a tree when it hadn't and turned left before it had cleared and got snagged by a branch.

I suppose that one of the advantages of the "radar display" of the APAS system (not available on Mini 1 or 2) is that it can tell you how far you are from an object you are appoaching. But no sideways sensors on most models. Wouldn't it be great if DJI installed low res "side view cameras" so you could, via split screen tell when you've fully passed an object?

I think that the 2000' feet from guy wires is an FAA recommendation rather than a requirement. It definitely can't be adhered to if you're inspecting a tower or flying above 400'AGL by being within 400' of the tower laterally.

There is a 2000 minimum distance horizontally from clouds (and 500' below) requirement in Part 107.

Yes, the proximity warnings are good to have, but I've not yet developed much reliance on them. At any significant flight speed there's not much time to react. They're really handy when maneuvering very slowly among obstacles. I photographed vultures feeding on the ground in a dense woods and used the proximity sensors to pick my way down and up through a small gap in the tree canopy.

 

[AZDave]

The one exception that I recall in regard to staying away from "structures" is the 2000' distance when it comes to guy wires, if you want to call a guy wire a structure... But it supports a structure, so I suppose that would include the structure as well.

You make an excellent point about depth perception. It's problematic when the drone is moving directly away from you, but even more problematic when the drone is away from you, but moving across where there are objects that may or may not be in the drone's path. I've had very few crashes, but the most decisive crash I've had is when I was trying to fly a path that "jogged" between trees. I thought my drone had gone fully past a tree when it hadn't and turned left before it had cleared and got snagged by a branch.

I suppose that one of the advantages of the "radar display" of the APAS system (not available on Mini 1 or 2) is that it can tell you how far you are from an object you are appoaching. But no sideways sensors on most models. Wouldn't it be great if DJI installed low res "side view cameras" so you could, via split screen tell when you've fully passed an object?

I always try to fly VLOS, but recently I tried to fly STRICTLY using VLOS for navigation ... in other words I ignored the monitor on the control. It was awful. The drone was no more than 500 feet away from me, but the video I examined later showed that I couldn't tell within 100 feet where I was and I still have pretty good vision. Granted, I was flying up a hillside above me and then across a ravine, but the entire flight was far less safe for either the drone or anything around it than if I had been using the monitor for navigation. And even then, as somebody above posted, the drone's camera rather significantly distorts distance to nearby objects. I think the moral here is that it is wise to maintain a margin for error.

 

[vindibona1]

I always try to fly VLOS, but recently I tried to fly STRICTLY using VLOS for navigation ... in other words I ignored the monitor on the control. It was awful. The drone was no more than 500 feet away from me, but the video I examined later showed that I couldn't tell within 100 feet where I was and I still have pretty good vision. Granted, I was flying up a hillside above me and then across a ravine, but the entire flight was far less safe for either the drone or anything around it than if I had been using the monitor for navigation. And even then, as somebody above posted, the drone's camera rather significantly distorts distance to nearby objects. I think the moral here is that it is wise to maintain a margin for error.

I understand completely and often feel the same way. I try to keep my eye on my drone as much as I can, rarely taking it further than I'd be able to spot it (with strobes), but if you lose sight of it, even for a second it may be difficult to reacquire in sight. In some respects and circumstances, while you could in fact see your drone, or at last have it not so far away that you should be able to see it, using the monitor is a better, sometimes much safer way to fly. The problem with rules and regulations that cover the entire country is that while a rule may be an absolute necessity for one locale and and impediment in another. Like you I always try to keep an extra margin for safety, but consider myself a chicken-poop not getting closer to stuff a lot of times.

 

[SnowGuy]

Also, don’t forget the caught fishing lines that have been left dangling from the bridge deck overhangs…they’ll take you out real good.

**** good point right there!!

 

[Roaming Troll]

As others have said, it's 400' AGL, that means "above ground level".

Also, make sure you get your FAA TRUST certificate. It's required by law, free, and you can't fail it. Plus it has all kinds of great info in it.

Take it here: FAA TRUST Online Portal for Recreational Drone Operators - Pilot Institute

As a retired air traffic controller I'm familiar with the definition of agl. However, still getting used to rules for drones. One of the first things I did was get the TRUST certificate. What I was wondering about was the narrowness of the river cut where each side is level with both ends of the bridges and continues to rise. Not that I was flying anywhere near that height here. I was wondering how the rules applied to a situation like this for future reference.

 

[Roaming Troll]

Also, don’t forget the caught fishing lines that have been left dangling from the bridge deck overhangs…they’ll take you out real good.

That was definitely on my mind. I used to do a lot of canoeing and saw many a dangling line under a bridge or tree branch.

 

[Roaming Troll]

Railroad tracks aren't considered critical infrastructure. Basic property rules and not flying over people in moving vehicles apply, but we can fly over their tracks all day long as long as we don't interfere with operations. Some railyard guards will say otherwise, but they're wrong.

I guess my impression of a lateral limit stems from this article on the Pilot Institute regarding critical infrastructure and area to avoid. The article was published back in 2020.

 

[netling]

I guess my impression of a lateral limit stems from this article on the Pilot Institute regarding critical infrastructure and area to avoid. The article was published back in 2020.

View attachment 154412

I’m sorry but when did the pilot institute become the FAA? They are WRONG, railroad tracks are privately owned and this has been discussed and ultimately ended with an statement from the FAA saying railroad track are not considered critical infrastructure.

 

[pilotinstitute]

I’m sorry but when did the pilot institute become the FAA? They are WRONG, railroad tracks are privately owned and this has been discussed and ultimately ended with an statement from the FAA saying railroad track are not considered critical infrastructure.

The article is correct, just misquoted. This is what it says.

Strangely enough, the FAA rules on drone flight make no mention of critical infrastructure. Instead, what they have defined are “Security Sensitive Airspace Restrictions”. The list includes certain critical infrastructure, as well as military bases and national landmarks such as Mount Rushmore and the Statue of Liberty.

The sites considered under “Security Sensitive Airspace Restrictions” are provided by the FAA in their open data ArcGIS online map. This is a convenient way to check if there are any critical infrastructure near you. In terms of airspace categories, the critical infrastructure identified by CISA overlaps with several types of FAA-imposed airspace restrictions.

Railroad tracks are not considered critical infrastructure as far as the FAA is concerned and the appropriate restrictions for drones can be found on the UAS Facility Map.

 

[bburnett15]

I’m sorry but when did the pilot institute become the FAA? They are WRONG, railroad tracks are privately owned and this has been discussed and ultimately ended with an statement from the FAA saying railroad track are not considered critical infrastructure.

The FRA is the railroad counterpart of the FAA and while they dont have any specific rules re: drones (yet), the local authorities dont care what the FAA allows or doesnt allow. They also have their own idea about what costitutes “critical infrastructure”. Generally speaking they do not want to see drones flying over their property unless it is one of theirs. When at work, i will sometimes take photos with the drone but from outside the R.O.W. And with permission of the railroad Employee in Charge. That being said, IMHO if you treat them like streets and dont hover or fly near or above moving trains you may be ok- but that is only my opinion.

 

[netling]

The FRA is the railroad counterpart of the FAA and while they dont have any specific rules re: drones (yet), the local authorities dont care what the FAA allows or doesnt allow. They also have their own idea about what costitutes “critical infrastructure”. Generally speaking they do not want to see drones flying over their property unless it is one of theirs. When at work, i will sometimes take photos with the drone but from outside the R.O.W. And with permission of the railroad Employee in Charge. That being said, IMHO if you treat them like streets and dont hover or fly near or above moving trains you may be ok- but that is only my opinion.

I see the problem… they don’t want you to catch the 5 man standing around making $50-80/hr while one man in the excavator is actually doing all of the work! ;-) just kidding.

I hear you and I’m sure the FAA is discussing all matters of drone flight, I found this article which is true and I quote the part that applies, “Additionally, drones “are prohibited from sustained flight over moving vehicles when operated outside a closed- or restricted-access site,” according to the American Short Line and Regional Railroad Association, which adds “of note to railroads, the FAA confirms that trains are included in the definition of ‘vehicle.’” - FAA Releases Rules for Drone Operations - Railway Age