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No Courtesy or Respect

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2nckayakers

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I have been flying for 3 years now and a member of this forum for the past 2. I am a frequent contributor to the forum and have really enjoyed learning from others and sharing stories both good and bad. Let me say that overall I feel that the majority of those I have talked with and met in the UAS/Drone community both in the forums and in person are very courteous and respectful of others. We don't always agree on positions, but we do agree to disagree in a somewhat civil manner. I have had many opposing positions with some in posts and then turn right around and agree with, support and defend their positions in other posts.

In person I have seen a lot of other people out flying over the last 3 years, more in the last year than in the first 2, and for the most part is has been like guys riding motorcycles down the highway. You know how you see them kind of give the downward wave to each other as they pass buy or that "sup" nod as they walk by each other. Of those I have interacted and had actual conversations with, it was overall a good experience. We talked about what we were flying, what kind of video or photography we did, shared YouTube channel addresses (if they had one) and had some good conversations about flying in general.

If I am in an area flying and I see another drone nearby (that I didn't see when I launched), typically I will immediately bring the bird back to my position and hover until I identify where the other pilot is flying from and make sure he or she sees me as well. If they do not see me, then I land and then go over to where they are, and once they land, introduce myself and start a conversation that 99% of the time leads into a great encounter. Once we both know each is flying in the same area, we usually take turns or establish an area where we will stay clear of the other. For the most part the UAS/Drone community is very courtesy and respectful.

But there are some in this forum, and in the community in general that are not. They have this ME, ME, ME attitude or the opinion that the rules do not apply to them and think " I don't need no stinking waiver or license to do anything". The one I hate the most is, " I live here, have all my life, and I know what I can and can't do". Case in point happened to me just last month. I am part of a kayak team that has paddled an annual long distance trip for the past 8 years raising money for a non profit. We paddle the same area, same number of days, same stops and after 8 days end up in the same place as we have each and every year. The last stop is in a very small town of less than 200 permanent residents that 1 weekend a year has a huge boat show where a few thousand people come through over three days.

I have recorded, documented, photographed and filmed each and every trip from start to finish and over the last 3 years been using my Mavic as part of the process. It hasn't been easy to do. During the trip I pass through Class D airspace 3 times, 2 of those are military bases. The whole last day of the trip we paddle through 1 commercial Class D, 1 military Class D and at the end of the day we wind up in a Restricted Special Use Airspace (which by the way covers a few hundred square miles including the town where we stay at the end). I have my part 107 license and I do all my flying during this trip as commercial flights so we can use footage as fundraising publicity. I spend months ahead of time putting together flight plans, submitting them, obtaining waivers and special permissions where necessary. I coordinate with air traffic control when necessary on the days I am going to fly. In the restricted air space they require me to call before I launch and call after I land. I have been working with them for the last three years and we have a good relationship.

So here is what went down... The weather on the last three days wasn't very cooperative. We had some strong winds and thunderstorms so we missed a day of paddling and two days of flying. The day we missed paddling the weather was crappy that morning but the afternoon got better so we decided we wanted to film some B-Roll stuff of us cleaning gear, loading up to go home, of some of the scenery in the harbor, etc. So I am in restricted airspace so I call over to my contact at the Air Station ATC and tell him the plan. He gives us the all clear actually for the whole day as they don't have any operations going on. So I grab all the gear and start out when I look out to the dock and see this guy and girl standing on the dock with a remote in their hand. The guy is in probably his early 60's and the girl is maybe mid 20's. There is a sailing event going on out in the sound and I notice they have a Mavic flying out over the sailboats.

So I walk down to the dock and politely ask what they have going on. Neither say much, but then the guy says we are filming the regatta. So I ask him does he had a waiver to fly here. He says, I don't have a license or a waiver, I don't need one because I am not flying commercially. So then I ask him what he is doing with the video, to which he says helping out the local Rotary Club with some promotion of the event. So I ask, again politely, did you get a waiver to fly in the restricted airspace. He starts rambling on about how he lives here, the military doesn't care if they fly over town or the waters around town, they talked to "so in so" down at the base a long time ago, yada, yada, yada and then basically told me to go mind my own business. So it is then that I inform him of three things, one that what he is doing is considered commercial regardless of what he calls it, second that he is in restricted airspace and to my knowledge I am the only pilot with a waiver and authorization to fly in the airspace during the entire day, and third I rented the house which included the yard and dock where he is standing and to my knowledge he didn't have permission to operate from the private property. Well it is then that he really got rude. Went into telling me how he had lived there all his life, could do whatever he wanted, knew the people that use to own the house, had friends at the Air Station, etc... Not one single time did he look me in the eye, (he wasn't flying by the way, the girl with him was, he was looking at some pictures on his phone). Finally I told him I was the only one with a waiver and permission to fly from this property and I was getting my stuff together to make a flight in the next few minutes.

I walked back up to the house and got my stuff together and kept a watch out on them. Within a couple of minutes after I left, they brought their Mavic down, packed everything away and left. I saw the guy a couple of other times over the next two days carrying his Mavic around in a bag, but I never saw him fly again while I was there. It was the only negative interaction that I have had in the 3 years with another pilot. If I had been doing a job for money I probably would have been a real jerk to him and called over to the Air Station to report him and a lot of other things too, but it was just a minor inconvenience to me that he was flying in a space that I had permission to fly and he didn't. But, I have had other interactions with people on the forum that had the same mind set as this guy and sometimes I can let it go and others I can't. The moral to the story though is if we are just courteous and respectful to each other we can all get along, but when you aren't it might be time to go on the offensive.
 
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Nice intro, sorry about that last encounter though. I have to admit, as a parent and a teacher myself, one can feel a bit defensive when approached by a stranger and being told or even suggested that they’re doing something wrong in front of their child. I try do do that away from kids if I have to talk with another adult about an issue. And trust me, I learned this by trial and error. Also, perhaps the timing was bad- you know how it is when you are flying and someone approaches you to talk. Its best when the discussion is kept short. Just my friendly advice....

Sounds like a really cool project you've been doing, also impressed with your due diligence with following the rules. It is too bad more pilots do not do that, and I feel your frustration when they don’t. By the way, a fellow kayaker myself. Just bought another double to take friends out with us! :)
 
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You and me both. There are too many that feel they can do whatever they want in the NAS and that they have no right being monitored, controlled, or restricted by the government. You can't even reason with then because they know it all. Sometimes you need to educate them and other times you just need to shake your head and move on.

It is however the same situation, and somewhat even more frustrating, when someone comes to you and tells you that you are not allowed to fly someplace when you have done everything correctly, have planned with all necessary clearances, and are totally aware of what you are doing. That goes for bot "civilians" who have this irrational fear of drones and law enforcement who think they know the law but have no clue.
 
Nice intro, sorry about that last encounter though. I have to admit, as a parent and a teacher myself, one can feel a bit defensive when approached by a stranger and being told or even suggested that they’re doing something wrong in front of their child. I try do do that away from kids if I have to talk with another adult about an issue. And trust me, I learned this by trial and error. Also, perhaps the timing was bad- you know how it is when you are flying and someone approaches you to talk. Its best when the discussion is kept short. Just my friendly advice....

Sounds like a really cool project you've been doing, also impressed with your due diligence with following the rules. It is too bad more pilots do not do that, and I feel your frustration when they don’t. By the way, a fellow kayaker myself. Just bought another double to take friends out with us! :)
So just to clarify, the girl with the guy was not his child. She was actually a random person watching the Regatta that came up to him and asked about his drone. (found this out later). So the other issue with him that I didn't even bring up in the previous post is that he let a stranger who he had no idea anything about them or their experience, take control of his bird and fly over people on sailboats.
 
So just to clarify, the girl with the guy was not his child. She was actually a random person watching the Regatta that came up to him and asked about his drone. (found this out later). So the other issue with him that I didn't even bring up in the previous post is that he let a stranger who he had no idea anything about them or their experience, take control of his bird and fly over people on sailboats.
How do you spell S.T.U.P.I.D. :-(
 
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You and me both. There are too many that feel they can do whatever they want in the NAS and that they have no right being monitored, controlled, or restricted by the government. You can't even reason with then because they know it all. Sometimes you need to educate them and other times you just need to shake your head and move on.

It is however the same situation, and somewhat even more frustrating, when someone comes to you and tells you that you are not allowed to fly someplace when you have done everything correctly, have planned with all necessary clearances, and are totally aware of what you are doing. That goes for bot "civilians" who have this irrational fear of drones and law enforcement who think they know the law but have no clue.
Yep I agree. That is why I asked the guy politely right to begin with if he had a waiver. Had he came back and said yes, or had at least said I called GySgt John Doe down at the Air Station ATC and he gave me clearance, it would have been a whole different situation. I would have even shared my space (the dock he was using that was part of the house I had paid rent to use) with him so he could continue flying. But when he started down the road of like who the heck are you to ask me anything and I can do whatever I want, then I had no respect for him at all at that point. The other thing was I told him I had a commercial license, a waiver and permission and was working on a project that I needed to fly to get some footage and had paid to rent the place so I could do it and basically he was in my space eating up a valuable window of time that I needed. Which I didn't say it in that manner (I was very polite) and didn't even bring that up until he gave me the whole I have lived here all my life and can do whatever I want spill.
 
How do you spell S.T.U.P.I.D. :-(
Yep that is exactly how it went down. Had I know that to begin with I would really have gotten on the offensive with him. I mean honestly who the heck hands the controls of their bird over to a stranger in that situation or any situation for that matter.
 
So just to clarify, the girl with the guy was not his child. She was actually a random person watching the Regatta that came up to him and asked about his drone. (found this out later). So the other issue with him that I didn't even bring up in the previous post is that he let a stranger who he had no idea anything about them or their experience, take control of his bird and fly over people on sailboats.

Ah, so it was worse than I thought - he was trying to impress her and you butted in making him look dumb in front of her. ;)

You are right though, pretty dumb to let a stranger fly it. He clearly wasn't thinking with his brain.
 
Ah, so it was worse than I thought - he was trying to impress her and you butted in making him look dumb in front of her. ;)

You are right though, pretty dumb to let a stranger fly it. He clearly wasn't thinking with his brain.
My thoughts exactly!
 
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But there are some in this forum, and in the community in general that are not. They have this ME, ME, ME attitude or the opinion that the rules do not apply to them and think "

Let's not get to carried away with haveing a 107. Just because you think your in the right and always do the right thing, don't expect everyone should be like you. Almost borderline of being the 107 police in that post. Just a note.... The "ME" "ME" "ME".... has transformend into "I" "I" "I" I believe there were 59 of those in that post. Hummmm... Let's all check ourselves before we check others.
 
Let's not get to carried away with haveing a 107. Just because you think your in the right and always do the right thing, don't expect everyone should be like you. Almost borderline of being the 107 police in that post. Just a note.... The "ME" "ME" "ME".... has transformend into "I" "I" "I" I believe there were 59 of those in that post. Hummmm... Let's all check ourselves before we check others.
:rolleyes:
 
Let's not get to carried away with haveing a 107. Just because you think your in the right and always do the right thing, don't expect everyone should be like you. Almost borderline of being the 107 police in that post. Just a note.... The "ME" "ME" "ME".... has transformend into "I" "I" "I" I believe there were 59 of those in that post. Hummmm... Let's all check ourselves before we check others.
So as I have said and many others on here in other posts, if we don't police ourselves then who will? The government? I am not shouting because I have my 107 and saying I am right about everything. However, I spent time and money to go through the process to get that so I can do commercial projects. Some make money, some don't but each one is just as important as the other. When someone interferes with that or inhibits that because they are just out flying for fun and not following the rules then you D right I am going to call them out. I might be polite about it, but they are going to get called out. How many rules have to be broken before you can call some out? Let's see how many rules were broken in that post;
FAA Regulations that were not followed:
1- Flying in restricted airspace that could endanger military aircraft without a waiver or authorization
2- Flying over people without a waiver
3- Flying for commercial gain (even for a non profit, it is considered commercial) without a license

In North Carolina they broke the following State Regulations;
1- Flying for commercial gain without a North Carolina Operators Permit
2- Flying from private property without the permission of the property owner

Not to mention, they were allowing someone who they were not familiar with to operate their aircraft while doing all of the above!

So you are saying that I need to check myself before I call out someone like this?

I followed the rules. I spent money and time to do that. I had a waiver, authorization and permission to fly in that airspace at that specific time so what rules didn't I follow? Again what did I need to further check? I didn't walk up to this guy like a **** and just jump at him. I was really polite and just asked a question. Like I said, if he told me he had talked to the right person, and had authorization to fly there, we would have been all happy as a pig in the mud, but it didn't go down that way and he pulled out the "I know what I can and can't do card" even though he CLEARLY did not know what he could and couldn't do. So in my opinion he deserved to be called out.
 
Also, I am not saying every single person has to get their 107. I love flying for fun just as much as I do commercially. BUT, there is no difference between the two when it comes to following the rules. You have to still follow the rules when flying for fun. Let's say this guy wasn't flying for commercial gain to help the Rotary Club. Ok what rules did he break as a FLY FOR FUN pilot?

FAA Regulations
1- Flying in restricted airspace that could endanger military aircraft without a waiver or authorization
2- Flying over people

NC Reg
1- Flying from private property without the permission of the property owner

So what if this guy had crashed into one of the sailboats and injured someone onboard or caused a serious accident. Or what if while flying around he got spotted by a military aircraft or endangered their flight because he was somewhere he shouldn't be without coordinating with them. The prime time news would have been all over the story and here is another black eye for the whole drone community.

So again, how many rules does someone have to break before you can call them out or confront them. I am sorry but as many of us on here have said time and time again, if we don't police ourselves and call those out when they do the wrong things, then someone else is going to step in and police us and we may not like the outcome, or it may be the end of our hobby or livelihood. So call me the drone police if you wish, but I wouldn't do anything different. AND if someone sees me doing something that I am not supposed to be doing then by all means confront me about it and if I need calling out then have at it!
 
So as I have said and many others on here in other posts, if we don't police ourselves then who will? The government? I am not shouting because I have my 107 and saying I am right about everything. However, I spent time and money to go through the process to get that so I can do commercial projects. Some make money, some don't but each one is just as important as the other. When someone interferes with that or inhibits that because they are just out flying for fun and not following the rules then you D right I am going to call them out. I might be polite about it, but they are going to get called out. How many rules have to be broken before you can call some out? Let's see how many rules were broken in that post;
FAA Regulations that were not followed:
1- Flying in restricted airspace that could endanger military aircraft without a waiver or authorization
2- Flying over people without a waiver
3- Flying for commercial gain (even for a non profit, it is considered commercial) without a license

In North Carolina they broke the following State Regulations;
1- Flying for commercial gain without a North Carolina Operators Permit
2- Flying from private property without the permission of the property owner

Not to mention, they were allowing someone who they were not familiar with to operate their aircraft while doing all of the above!

So you are saying that I need to check myself before I call out someone like this?

I followed the rules. I spent money and time to do that. I had a waiver, authorization and permission to fly in that airspace at that specific time so what rules didn't I follow? Again what did I need to further check? I didn't walk up to this guy like a **** and just jump at him. I was really polite and just asked a question. Like I said, if he told me he had talked to the right person, and had authorization to fly there, we would have been all happy as a pig in the mud, but it didn't go down that way and he pulled out the "I know what I can and can't do card" even though he CLEARLY did not know what he could and couldn't do. So in my opinion he deserved to be called out.

Micro managing someone else "because you follow rules" is not a good thing IMO, it will get to ya mentaly. Are you the one that stay's in your neighborhood by the 4-way stop and yells at everyone that dosent do a complete stop? I can see you having the book out and telling them all the rules of how and when to stop by that post. It's just not healthy, ask your keyboard, it's taking some abuse!

All in good discussion.
 
Micro managing someone else "because you follow rules" is not a good thing IMO, it will get to ya mentaly. Are you the one that stay's in your neighborhood by the 4-way stop and yells at everyone that dosent do a complete stop? I can see you having the book out and telling them all the rules of how and when to stop by that post. It's just not healthy, ask your keyboard, it's taking some abuse!

All in good discussion.
No I don't. I pretty much leave people alone and let them be unless it directly affects me in some way. In this instance it directly affected me! This guy was flying somewhere he shouldn't be and it was interfering with a flight that I needed to make (not just to have fun and impress some girl). I don't go around looking for people breaking rules. That isn't my focus in any way. But when I spent $1200 to rent a place, and then worked for months to secure waivers, authorizations and permission to fly in an area. AND, I get there and here is some guy who is breaking every rule I had to follow to be there, and he is standing in the spot that I rented and wants to tell me that he can do what he wants and who am I to tell him otherwise? You bet your but I am going to call them out.

So in June I am going to Florida to do the same thing. I have spent MONTHS getting a waiver, authorization and permission to fly in some places that not everyone gets to fly. If I show up on my shoot day and you are there flying I will politely ask you to see your waiver, authorization and letter of permission and if you don't have it, then I will call you out as well. Just saying.
 
Micro managing someone else "because you follow rules" is not a good thing IMO, it will get to ya mentaly. Are you the one that stay's in your neighborhood by the 4-way stop and yells at everyone that dosent do a complete stop? I can see you having the book out and telling them all the rules of how and when to stop by that post. It's just not healthy, ask your keyboard, it's taking some abuse!

All in good discussion.
71135
 
Let's not get to carried away with haveing a 107. Just because you think your in the right and always do the right thing, don't expect everyone should be like you. Almost borderline of being the 107 police in that post. Just a note.... The "ME" "ME" "ME".... has transformend into "I" "I" "I" I believe there were 59 of those in that post. Hummmm... Let's all check ourselves before we check others.
71136
 
No I don't. I pretty much leave people alone and let them be unless it directly affects me in some way. In this instance it directly affected me! This guy was flying somewhere he shouldn't be and it was interfering with a flight that I needed to make (not just to have fun and impress some girl). I don't go around looking for people breaking rules. That isn't my focus in any way. But when I spent $1200 to rent a place, and then worked for months to secure waivers, authorizations and permission to fly in an area. AND, I get there and here is some guy who is breaking every rule I had to follow to be there, and he is standing in the spot that I rented and wants to tell me that he can do what he wants and who am I to tell him otherwise? You bet your but I am going to call them out.

So in June I am going to Florida to do the same thing. I have spent MONTHS getting a waiver, authorization and permission to fly in some places that not everyone gets to fly. If I show up on my shoot day and you are there flying I will politely ask you to see your waiver, authorization and letter of permission and if you don't have it, then I will call you out as well. Just saying.

Thumbswayup
 
I have been flying for 3 years now and a member of this forum for the past 2. I am a frequent contributor to the forum and have really enjoyed learning from others and sharing stories both good and bad. Let me say that overall I feel that the majority of those I have talked with and met in the UAS/Drone community both in the forums and in person are very courteous and respectful of others. We don't always agree on positions, but we do agree to disagree in a somewhat civil manner. I have had many opposing positions with some in posts and then turn right around and agree with, support and defend their positions in other posts.

In person I have seen a lot of other people out flying over the last 3 years, more in the last year than in the first 2, and for the most part is has been like guys riding motorcycles down the highway. You know how you see them kind of give the downward wave to each other as they pass buy or that "sup" nod as they walk by each other. Of those I have interacted and had actual conversations with, it was overall a good experience. We talked about what we were flying, what kind of video or photography we did, shared YouTube channel addresses (if they had one) and had some good conversations about flying in general.

If I am in an area flying and I see another drone nearby (that I didn't see when I launched), typically I will immediately bring the bird back to my position and hover until I identify where the other pilot is flying from and make sure he or she sees me as well. If they do not see me, then I land and then go over to where they are, and once they land, introduce myself and start a conversation that 99% of the time leads into a great encounter. Once we both know each is flying in the same area, we usually take turns or establish an area where we will stay clear of the other. For the most part the UAS/Drone community is very courtesy and respectful.

But there are some in this forum, and in the community in general that are not. They have this ME, ME, ME attitude or the opinion that the rules do not apply to them and think " I don't need no stinking waiver or license to do anything". The one I hate the most is, " I live here, have all my life, and I know what I can and can't do". Case in point happened to me just last month. I am part of a kayak team that has paddled an annual long distance trip for the past 8 years raising money for a non profit. We paddle the same area, same number of days, same stops and after 8 days end up in the same place as we have each and every year. The last stop is in a very small town of less than 200 permanent residents that 1 weekend a year has a huge boat show where a few thousand people come through over three days.

I have recorded, documented, photographed and filmed each and every trip from start to finish and over the last 3 years been using my Mavic as part of the process. It hasn't been easy to do. During the trip I pass through Class D airspace 3 times, 2 of those are military bases. The whole last day of the trip we paddle through 1 commercial Class D, 1 military Class D and at the end of the day we wind up in a Restricted Special Use Airspace (which by the way covers a few hundred square miles including the town where we stay at the end). I have my part 107 license and I do all my flying during this trip as commercial flights so we can use footage as fundraising publicity. I spend months ahead of time putting together flight plans, submitting them, obtaining waivers and special permissions where necessary. I coordinate with air traffic control when necessary on the days I am going to fly. In the restricted air space they require me to call before I launch and call after I land. I have been working with them for the last three years and we have a good relationship.

So here is what went down... The weather on the last three days wasn't very cooperative. We had some strong winds and thunderstorms so we missed a day of paddling and two days of flying. The day we missed paddling the weather was crappy that morning but the afternoon got better so we decided we wanted to film some B-Roll stuff of us cleaning gear, loading up to go home, of some of the scenery in the harbor, etc. So I am in restricted airspace so I call over to my contact at the Air Station ATC and tell him the plan. He gives us the all clear actually for the whole day as they don't have any operations going on. So I grab all the gear and start out when I look out to the dock and see this guy and girl standing on the dock with a remote in their hand. The guy is in probably his early 60's and the girl is maybe mid 20's. There is a sailing event going on out in the sound and I notice they have a Mavic flying out over the sailboats.

So I walk down to the dock and politely ask what they have going on. Neither say much, but then the guy says we are filming the regatta. So I ask him does he had a waiver to fly here. He says, I don't have a license or a waiver, I don't need one because I am not flying commercially. So then I ask him what he is doing with the video, to which he says helping out the local Rotary Club with some promotion of the event. So I ask, again politely, did you get a waiver to fly in the restricted airspace. He starts rambling on about how he lives here, the military doesn't care if they fly over town or the waters around town, they talked to "so in so" down at the base a long time ago, yada, yada, yada and then basically told me to go mind my own business. So it is then that I inform him of three things, one that what he is doing is considered commercial regardless of what he calls it, second that he is in restricted airspace and to my knowledge I am the only pilot with a waiver and authorization to fly in the airspace during the entire day, and third I rented the house which included the yard and dock where he is standing and to my knowledge he didn't have permission to operate from the private property. Well it is then that he really got rude. Went into telling me how he had lived there all his life, could do whatever he wanted, knew the people that use to own the house, had friends at the Air Station, etc... Not one single time did he look me in the eye, (he wasn't flying by the way, the girl with him was, he was looking at some pictures on his phone). Finally I told him I was the only one with a waiver and permission to fly from this property and I was getting my stuff together to make a flight in the next few minutes.

I walked back up to the house and got my stuff together and kept a watch out on them. Within a couple of minutes after I left, they brought their Mavic down, packed everything away and left. I saw the guy a couple of other times over the next two days carrying his Mavic around in a bag, but I never saw him fly again while I was there. It was the only negative interaction that I have had in the 3 years with another pilot. If I had been doing a job for money I probably would have been a real jerk to him and called over to the Air Station to report him and a lot of other things too, but it was just a minor inconvenience to me that he was flying in a space that I had permission to fly and he didn't. But, I have had other interactions with people on the forum that had the same mind set as this guy and sometimes I can let it go and others I can't. The moral to the story though is if we are just courteous and respectful to each other we can all get along, but when you aren't it might be time to go on the offensive.


I guess I wouldn’t be too talkative if a stranger came up and asked me what I was doing and if I had a waiver. Remember your waiver doesn’t mean you are the only one allowed to fly there.

As far as needing a waiver you are correct that what he said the operation is for would require a 107 license but that’s not clear to most people even people that understand the rules. Frankly I’m not sure the FAA is even all that clear on it. According to the FAAs user identification tool User Identification Tool a reasonable person could come to the conclusion you wouldn’t need a 107 license for that operation as long as you answer yes to “are you flying for fun?” According to the FAAs own tool.

I know the FAA has said otherwise but it really is a bit of a grey area as far as the material they have available. (Note: I’m not saying he wouldn’t need a 107. I think he does. What I am saying is it easy to see why people are confused about it. )

I think it’s just about educating people and asking nicely. You might be frustrated after following all the rules but if you take that frustration out on people who don’t understand where you are coming from then you just seem like a donkey to them and of course you aren’t gonna get cooperation.
 
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