No Courtesy or Respect

Bigbird48 · May 2, 2019

madkaw said:
What, the point is...you don’t take the law in your owns hands; you call the authorities; It’s that simple!

The point is The OP had every right to be there and the guy on the dock didn't its that simple. According to you I can go in your back yard and fly my drone you you can't say squat about it .

Pontoon-pilot · May 3, 2019

Bigbird48 said:
The point is The OP had every right to be there and the guy on the dock didn't its that simple. According to you I can go in your back yard and fly my drone you you can't say squat about it .

I would not categorize it as same. This is not a clear case where you just walk into the backyard of a private property.
According to the OP this was a rental property - short term rental? meaning many people come and go.
Based on this posting it is hard to picture how big this property, the yard and the dock area.
Maybe locals frequently go there to watch the regatta and it is acceptable practice in a small town.
What I am saying there is lots of assumptions going on here, we only see one side of the coin.

From the OP's post...
There is one thing that really matters, "I rented the house which included the yard and dock".
The other sounds like the OP is about to go FAA on him.
"restricted airspace and to my knowledge I am the only pilot with a waiver and authorization to fly in the airspace during the entire day"

"So it is then that I inform him of three things, one that what he is doing is considered commercial regardless of what he calls it, second that he is in restricted airspace and to my knowledge I am the only pilot with a waiver and authorization to fly in the airspace during the entire day, and third I rented the house which included the yard and dock where he is standing and to my knowledge he didn't have permission to operate from the private property."

MavicFT1P · May 3, 2019

2nckayakers said:
I have been flying for 3 years now and a member of this forum for the past 2. I am a frequent contributor to the forum and have really enjoyed learning from others and sharing stories both good and bad. Let me say that overall I feel that the majority of those I have talked with and met in the UAS/Drone community both in the forums and in person are very courteous and respectful of others. We don't always agree on positions, but we do agree to disagree in a somewhat civil manner. I have had many opposing positions with some in posts and then turn right around and agree with, support and defend their positions in other posts.

In person I have seen a lot of other people out flying over the last 3 years, more in the last year than in the first 2, and for the most part is has been like guys riding motorcycles down the highway. You know how you see them kind of give the downward wave to each other as they pass buy or that "sup" nod as they walk by each other. Of those I have interacted and had actual conversations with, it was overall a good experience. We talked about what we were flying, what kind of video or photography we did, shared YouTube channel addresses (if they had one) and had some good conversations about flying in general.

If I am in an area flying and I see another drone nearby (that I didn't see when I launched), typically I will immediately bring the bird back to my position and hover until I identify where the other pilot is flying from and make sure he or she sees me as well. If they do not see me, then I land and then go over to where they are, and once they land, introduce myself and start a conversation that 99% of the time leads into a great encounter. Once we both know each is flying in the same area, we usually take turns or establish an area where we will stay clear of the other. For the most part the UAS/Drone community is very courtesy and respectful.

But there are some in this forum, and in the community in general that are not. They have this ME, ME, ME attitude or the opinion that the rules do not apply to them and think " I don't need no stinking waiver or license to do anything". The one I hate the most is, " I live here, have all my life, and I know what I can and can't do". Case in point happened to me just last month. I am part of a kayak team that has paddled an annual long distance trip for the past 8 years raising money for a non profit. We paddle the same area, same number of days, same stops and after 8 days end up in the same place as we have each and every year. The last stop is in a very small town of less than 200 permanent residents that 1 weekend a year has a huge boat show where a few thousand people come through over three days.

I have recorded, documented, photographed and filmed each and every trip from start to finish and over the last 3 years been using my Mavic as part of the process. It hasn't been easy to do. During the trip I pass through Class D airspace 3 times, 2 of those are military bases. The whole last day of the trip we paddle through 1 commercial Class D, 1 military Class D and at the end of the day we wind up in a Restricted Special Use Airspace (which by the way covers a few hundred square miles including the town where we stay at the end). I have my part 107 license and I do all my flying during this trip as commercial flights so we can use footage as fundraising publicity. I spend months ahead of time putting together flight plans, submitting them, obtaining waivers and special permissions where necessary. I coordinate with air traffic control when necessary on the days I am going to fly. In the restricted air space they require me to call before I launch and call after I land. I have been working with them for the last three years and we have a good relationship.

So here is what went down... The weather on the last three days wasn't very cooperative. We had some strong winds and thunderstorms so we missed a day of paddling and two days of flying. The day we missed paddling the weather was crappy that morning but the afternoon got better so we decided we wanted to film some B-Roll stuff of us cleaning gear, loading up to go home, of some of the scenery in the harbor, etc. So I am in restricted airspace so I call over to my contact at the Air Station ATC and tell him the plan. He gives us the all clear actually for the whole day as they don't have any operations going on. So I grab all the gear and start out when I look out to the dock and see this guy and girl standing on the dock with a remote in their hand. The guy is in probably his early 60's and the girl is maybe mid 20's. There is a sailing event going on out in the sound and I notice they have a Mavic flying out over the sailboats.

So I walk down to the dock and politely ask what they have going on. Neither say much, but then the guy says we are filming the regatta. So I ask him does he had a waiver to fly here. He says, I don't have a license or a waiver, I don't need one because I am not flying commercially. So then I ask him what he is doing with the video, to which he says helping out the local Rotary Club with some promotion of the event. So I ask, again politely, did you get a waiver to fly in the restricted airspace. He starts rambling on about how he lives here, the military doesn't care if they fly over town or the waters around town, they talked to "so in so" down at the base a long time ago, yada, yada, yada and then basically told me to go mind my own business. So it is then that I inform him of three things, one that what he is doing is considered commercial regardless of what he calls it, second that he is in restricted airspace and to my knowledge I am the only pilot with a waiver and authorization to fly in the airspace during the entire day, and third I rented the house which included the yard and dock where he is standing and to my knowledge he didn't have permission to operate from the private property. Well it is then that he really got rude. Went into telling me how he had lived there all his life, could do whatever he wanted, knew the people that use to own the house, had friends at the Air Station, etc... Not one single time did he look me in the eye, (he wasn't flying by the way, the girl with him was, he was looking at some pictures on his phone). Finally I told him I was the only one with a waiver and permission to fly from this property and I was getting my stuff together to make a flight in the next few minutes.

I walked back up to the house and got my stuff together and kept a watch out on them. Within a couple of minutes after I left, they brought their Mavic down, packed everything away and left. I saw the guy a couple of other times over the next two days carrying his Mavic around in a bag, but I never saw him fly again while I was there. It was the only negative interaction that I have had in the 3 years with another pilot. If I had been doing a job for money I probably would have been a real jerk to him and called over to the Air Station to report him and a lot of other things too, but it was just a minor inconvenience to me that he was flying in a space that I had permission to fly and he didn't. But, I have had other interactions with people on the forum that had the same mind set as this guy and sometimes I can let it go and others I can't. The moral to the story though is if we are just courteous and respectful to each other we can all get along, but when you aren't it might be time to go on the offensive.

Cant believe i read that.

Everyone has bad days 2kacyakcer
Drink some Chamomile and hit Reset

Correction drink some chamomile, vent that stuff in a super ranty post
if it's Carthatic/helps you do so, but when your finished just press delete.
You'll feel better for it

Bigbird48 · May 3, 2019

If you read the OP statement he was very polite and cordial right up to the point where this guy basically told him he could give a rats butt about his authorization or the fact that he paid rent to be there . The guy just said hey I live here and screw you. At that point I'd have blown a gasket and call the FAA and the local authorities to have the guy removed.

madkaw · May 3, 2019

Bigbird48 said:
The point is The OP had every right to be there and the guy on the dock didn't its that simple. According to you I can go in your back yard and fly my drone you you can't say squat about it .
View attachment 71231

You could, but I would call the authorities and have you removed; All without you knowing. Again that simple!!

DronCific · May 3, 2019

I think if you would have just told him what you needed to do and that you had clearance from the air base to do so and said you were renting that spot or what ever in order to do what you needed to do might have gone down a little better especially if he lives in the area and has flown there before you asking if he has a waiver and what he's doing with the video is a little to much IMO

DronCific · May 3, 2019

No I still haven't got it to work I returned my friends lap top, I just hit cancel or no when it asks to check for upgrade and I fly I'm still looking at laptops and or desktops still haven't decided which to get

2nckayakers · May 3, 2019

Luke147 said:
Seems to me that if you waited on hour until all of his batteries were dead he would have had to.leave and you still would have had the place to yourself. Maybe some patience on your part would have saved you a lot of unneeded heartburn.

So here is the thing with commercial shoots, you have windows. I was trying to film my team as they were cleaning, unloading, repacking gear. And, we had a weather event going on, remember I said the weather had hindered us for several days, it had rained off and on all that day. We had one very small window where something I needed to film was happening, and there was a break in the weather.

2nckayakers · May 3, 2019

DeeRose said:
Totally agree. There's a right way and a wrong way to handle issues with people. I think this one was a bit confrontational as well. The guy doesn't owe anyone but leo or property owner an explanation of what he's doing with the video. In this day and age, kind of surprised this didn't end with someone getting hurt.

Nope I don't really like confrontation, I am honestly pretty passive most of the time, so it would never have come to fists or anything like that. Remember too if you read my OP, I walked away, waited, he left. Which I think the reason he did is the though I may have been going back inside to call someone to come take care of him. But it wasn't like that. I wasn't out there trying to bully the guy or start something with him, I just needed the space and when I went out there my initial contact was very polite and I was even going to just tell the guy what I was doing, what I needed and hope he said "no problem, I can give you the time" but he went a different direction right to begin with which crossed the rubicon for me.

2nckayakers · May 3, 2019

Pontoon-pilot said:
I would not categorize it as same. This is not a clear case where you just walk into the backyard of a private property.
According to the OP this was a rental property - short term rental? meaning many people come and go.
Based on this posting it is hard to picture how big this property, the yard and the dock area.
Maybe locals frequently go there to watch the regatta and it is acceptable practice in a small town.
What I am saying there is lots of assumptions going on here, we only see one side of the coin.

From the OP's post...
There is one thing that really matters, "I rented the house which included the yard and dock".
The other sounds like the OP is about to go FAA on him.
"restricted airspace and to my knowledge I am the only pilot with a waiver and authorization to fly in the airspace during the entire day"

"So it is then that I inform him of three things, one that what he is doing is considered commercial regardless of what he calls it, second that he is in restricted airspace and to my knowledge I am the only pilot with a waiver and authorization to fly in the airspace during the entire day, and third I rented the house which included the yard and dock where he is standing and to my knowledge he didn't have permission to operate from the private property."

And that is exactly what I did once this guy threw the "I live in this town and can do what I want" card in my face. Before that, like I said, I was trying to be courteous and respectful to a fellow flyer.

2nckayakers · May 3, 2019

Great conversation in the posts, and again we all have our opinions of how we should and shouldn't do things. BUT, I think the original message in the post is being missed. It is all about us as a community, or us as having something in common with other people, being courteous and respectful of one another. Like I said in this thread, I wasn't out there trying to start a confrontation. Yes I had something I needed to do, and I had spent time and money to make sure I could do it, or at least attempt to do it. BUT, when I first looked out and saw this guy on the dock flying my first thought wasn't to go barreling out there and confront him, or to pick up the phone and call the police or ATC, it was "hey, there is a guy out there with a Mavic, let's go see what he is up too and maybe talk about flying, or learn something". I mean honestly when you all go out to fly somewhere and you see someone else flying doesn't it kind of excite you for a moment? It does me, and I love talking with others about flying, filming, photography, projects etc. It is always a learning opportunity for me. This started out no different. Just like asking the guy what he was doing with his video. Maybe I could have asked different, but I am always curious as to how people are using the pictures and video. I don't ask it to be confrontational, I ask because I love to see how people use it creatively. Had they guy said, "oh just out here doing it for fun, I have a YouTube channel where I like to post and share", I would have asked him all about his channel and traded information with him. I do it all the time. After that I was prepared to tell him what I was up to and share all of my stuff and hopefully he would have just said "sure, by the time you get back out here with your gear ready to launch, I will have mine down". But again, being courteous and respectful wasn't in the cards for this guy.

We owe it to the hobby, industry and the public to police ourselves. If we don't then we are doomed. But sometimes policing ourselves is just an opportunity to educate someone, or to learn for ourselves (if we are the ones doing something wrong). Yes there is a time to pick up the phone and call the authorities who ever that may be, but then there are times when we just approach someone and see what their knowledge is of what they are doing and maybe try to educate then a little if they are open to it. Maybe it is their first flight. Maybe they have never met anyone else in the hobby before. Maybe they have been waiting to meet someone that can help them learn new things.

The same is for us in this thread. Go back and look. How many right away jumped in and said I was being confrontational and wanted to be negative towards me and say it was all my fault, before fully reading the post, or knowing the entire story. Yes it was my side of the story, and there is always two sides to each story, and maybe if this guy were in this forum and gave his side it would be different. Maybe he was having a bad day. Maybe it wasn't the first time someone confronted him. Maybe some anti-drone folks in town have been harassing him. Maybe it was the only place in town he could fly that no one bothered him. Or maybe he was just a crotchety old guy that had a bad attitude about anything. You never know when you come in contact with someone whether it is in person or here in a forum. Maybe I could have handled it differently. Maybe I could have said something different. Maybe I could have waited till his bird fell from the sky and hurt someone, or maybe I could have just sat inside and ignored the whole situation. And yes, in the world today you have to be careful because you don't know how people are going to react. But, that shouldn't stop us from approaching people, from interacting with people, from sharing ideas, and from trying to educate others when you can clearly see they are doing something that may not be safe or may be illegal. All that only works though if we quit trying to be confrontational and or defensive right to begin with, and be a little kinder, gentler, courteous and respectful. It works both ways. When you read something here, or when you are approached while you are out flying, don't always go on the defensive. Be open to opinion. Be open to the fact that maybe you didn't know the rules, maybe you were in the wrong, and don't be afraid to admit it. Too many people now days think it is bad to admit when you did something wrong, that it makes you look like lesser of a person. Sometimes we let ego get in the way, but didn't we all have to start somewhere? I certainly didn't know every thing about flying a drone when I first started. I learned by educating myself, by listening to people around me, by going to classes, by getting some WONDERFUL input from people in this forum, and from those who I meet when out flying. It's ok to have different opinions and we won't all see eye to eye, but you know what, every single one of us in this forum have something in common, we love flying! If you don't then why are you even here. So why not take every chance we can get to learn, to teach, to enjoy and to make new friends. Don't always go on the defensive, just listen sometimes and see where it leads. Look at things from others point of view. Don't think you know everything, I sure don't and I will be the first to admit that. I learn something new every single day. If we aren't cordial with one another in this hobby and industry, then how can we expect the anti-droners to ever give us the time of day. It all starts though with being courteous and respectful.

But when you clearly know someone is in the wrong, or you spent a lot of time, money and effort to do something, and you had a bad experience, don't be afraid to stand up for it or write a novel of a post and hit the "Start new post" button and share your story. It is in our shared experiences that we learn the most!

JanB · May 3, 2019

A psychological interesting behavior: Since the beginning of this thread you are repeating how respectful and courteous you are. No remarque from you without this discret fingertip. As I wrote before the use of too many words for a story may suit a sermon in the church but not a discussion. I nearly compare it to a philippika without it being one. You may be right but again we only hear you. The last comment is quite nice, but too long, you can read it better, shorter and sharper in the users guide of this community.Rests only the reason for your eloquential sermon. And here I hold back my opinion and analysis because I try to be courteous...

Colberado · May 3, 2019

Can’t believe I just read all of that. Sounds like a dock with a lot going on around it. And in the end, although included with rental, I began picturing a dock accessible to a community-especially since a random woman walked up to join him. You can correct me if I’m wrong about the trespassing aspect. Just an easily avoidable situation. Old guys just love to fight over docks (no pun intended). Did you actually rent the house to have access to a dock to launch from, or did you rent it for your kayak event? To his defense, he most likely knew the area and had no intention/risk of harming anyone or breaking rules. He probably (like you) was expecting to be the only person out there with a drone and was caught off guard. To your defense, you followed all of the rules, and as you said, wanted to educate the man. Still, this is a whole lot of nothing burger. Best of just avoid conflict all together, bc things do go south for the dumbest reasons sometimes. Then you just end up regretting it later. Maybe he felt like a jerk after he drove off.

Taylor1430 · May 3, 2019

I’d be cautious about approaching people. In the first few seconds, it was obvious he did not care about what you had to say and are talking to a stump. The biggest deal for me was the actual trespassing on property you rented. I wouldn’t get into an argument over waivers. You could have also said the reason for asking is if he were flying legal, he’d be OK from flying from that dock. Since it’s an illegal flight, “it’s time to get off my pier”. Then, if any resistance call the police and have him removed.

AMann · May 3, 2019

JSKCKNIT said:
There's too much craziness in the world. I agree we must police ourselves, but there are some people out there who have no problems ending your life over an argument. Not worth it. Let LE handle it. There was a story about a year or so ago about a man getting shot over a drone confrontation.

And it was the crazy drone pilot doing the shooting!

Man shot after dispute over drone, witnesses say