Ok for police to fly over crowds ?

[Alanc]

How is this allowed?
The golden rule for all pilots is not to fly over people or crowds or buildings. Yes ?

Yes just the other morning on BBC TV did I see the police using drones over crowds of football fans. . This was a contradiction of almost any law that I’m aware of. Surely if there is one law and if that applies to all then that is right. Otherwise ones gets into the realms of the grey.

 

[The Editor]

How is this allowed?
The golden rule for all pilots is not to fly over people or crowds or buildings. Yes ?

Yes just the other morning on BBC TV did I see the police using drones over crowds of football fans. . This was a contradiction of almost any law that I’m aware of. Surely if there is one law and if that applies to all then that is right. Otherwise ones gets into the realms of the grey.

Flying over crowds is perfectly acceptable and the CAA will grant permission for this providing an OSC has been submitted and approved and the SUAS has an arresting device fitted to decrease the kinetic energy from a fall in the event of motor/prop failure etc.
There are additional boldface procedures that have to be satisfied and certain NQE’s are authorized to test emergency services to this higher level of safety.

And this thread is posted in the wrong section. @dirkclod

 

[GoGeoFerret]

OSC? SUAS? NQE's? Replying using abbreviations may be very clever, but doesn't help those of us who haven't got a clue what you're on about!

 

[The Editor]

OSC? SUAS? NQE's? Replying using abbreviations may be very clever, but doesn't help those of us who haven't got a clue what you're on about!

Since you do not hold PfCO (or you would totally understand the abbreviations), it really will not apply to hobbyist flyers since they will be unable to gain permissions to fly over crowds.
However, to satisfy your curiosity
OSC - Operating Safety Case
SUAS - Small Unmanned Aircraft System
NQE - National Qualified Entity

And in case you don't know....
PfCO - Permission for Commercial Operation.

Or of course you could always use Google!

 

[FoxhallGH]

By the same mechanisms, a PfCO qualified operator can apply to the CAA and the Airport Authority to fly within an Airport boundary that would be termed an NFZ for us, recreational users. It's not a case of one set of rules for us, and another for them - it's a case of one set of rules ... And the more you are qualified, the more rules you get access to.

 

[gnirtS]

How is this allowed?
The golden rule for all pilots is not to fly over people or crowds or buildings. Yes ?

Yes just the other morning on BBC TV did I see the police using drones over crowds of football fans. . This was a contradiction of almost any law that I’m aware of. Surely if there is one law and if that applies to all then that is right. Otherwise ones gets into the realms of the grey.

The golden rule is not to allow untrained, unqualified people take aircraft of unknown airworthiness over crowds exposing them to uncalculated risk.

Police and civilians are perfectly allowed to fly over crowds, buildings, within a few hundred metres of active runways (or closer). They've done the PfCO commercial course which amongst other things has practical training and assessment of skills, testing of extensive theoretical knowledge. Lessons of risk management and reduction, maintenance and best practices.
They'll be operating from a clearly defined operations manual (which can be several hundred pages long) and have performed extensive risk analysis and mitigation (again can be a few hundred pages long) and operating the craft in such a way. They'll also have extensive liability insurance and the drone itself which have a complete maintenance record and possible modifications for the role envisaged.

Theres nothing grey about it. Theres one law. If you want to get a commercial PfCO then get your wallet out, pay the £2500 or so, get an operations and risk manual written and approved by the CAA, pass the assessments, get the insurance and then the individual permissions and modifications/certifications to the craft. and you're good to go. Nothing magic about it.

Its completely black and white, no PfCO the standard AIP applies (ie drone code). If you have a PfCO then the procedures allow you to get exemptions for whatever the project calls for.

 

[kensteele]

same thing with driver's license. one set of rules for everyone. but some people are allowed to drive on the freeway...some people are allowed to drive at night....some people can drive at high speeds. your privileges are not match to your skills and capabilities but mostly to your wallet. the more you pay, the more training you receive, the more safety factors you incorporate on your product, the more licenses and permits you get, the more time you spend behind a desk, the bigger your insurance policy, the fatter your wallet, or the more people you know....you get the rights.

 

[Alanc]

The golden rule is not to allow untrained, unqualified people take aircraft of unknown airworthiness over crowds exposing them to uncalculated risk.

Police and civilians are perfectly allowed to fly over crowds, buildings, within a few hundred metres of active runways (or closer). They've done the PfCO commercial course which amongst other things has practical training and assessment of skills, testing of extensive theoretical knowledge. Lessons of risk management and reduction, maintenance and best practices.
They'll be operating from a clearly defined operations manual (which can be several hundred pages long) and have performed extensive risk analysis and mitigation (again can be a few hundred pages long) and operating the craft in such a way. They'll also have extensive liability insurance and the drone itself which have a complete maintenance record and possible modifications for the role envisaged.

Theres nothing grey about it. Theres one law. If you want to get a commercial PfCO then get your wallet out, pay the £2500 or so, get an operations and risk manual written and approved by the CAA, pass the assessments, get the insurance and then the individual permissions and modifications/certifications to the craft. and you're good to go. Nothing magic about it.

Its completely black and white, no PfCO the standard AIP applies (ie drone code). If you have a PfCO then the procedures allow you to get exemptions for whatever the project calls for.

What I'm trying to point out is that . The only rule which the general public are aware of is that drones should not be flown over crowds. Hence at a football match a drone is seen . Then how would those within in crowd know of the exceptions ? And wouldn't that then give the notion that ' bloody drones and the owners ' are totally irresponsible. . Given us the responsible hobbyists a bad name . I therefore make the case that when there are exceptions there's always confusion and the innocent loose out.

 

[Aussie Oldtimer]

my guess is that they have an exemption to do so
Recently at the Australian Airshow, the RAAF did a demo race. Even they had to get an exemption to fly at an airport

 

[deleted member 877]

same thing with driver's license. one set of rules for everyone. but some people are allowed to drive on the freeway...some people are allowed to drive at night....some people can drive at high speeds. your privileges are not match to your skills and capabilities but mostly to your wallet. the more you pay, the more training you receive, the more safety factors you incorporate on your product, the more licenses and permits you get, the more time you spend behind a desk, the bigger your insurance policy, the fatter your wallet, or the more people you know....you get the rights.

Another completely irrelevant and nonsensical analogy.

 

[kensteele]

Another completely irrelevant and nonsensical analogy.

you're right, i forgot the add the switch /s.

 

[Aussie Oldtimer]

same thing with driver's license. one set of rules for everyone. but some people are allowed to drive on the freeway...some people are allowed to drive at night....some people can drive at high speeds. your privileges are not match to your skills and capabilities but mostly to your wallet. the more you pay, the more training you receive, the more safety factors you incorporate on your product, the more licenses and permits you get, the more time you spend behind a desk, the bigger your insurance policy, the fatter your wallet, or the more people you know....you get the rights.

really?
ive never heard of such a thing.
what country allows people to drive faster, or on a freeway or at night because they pay more $

 

[kensteele]

you're right, i forgot the add the switch /s.

really?
ive never heard of such a thing.
what country allows people to drive faster, or on a freeway or at night because they pay more $

clearly it was sarcasm. i forgot the /s switch which indicates sarcasm or i could have used one of the emojis i guess. obviously there is nothing of the kind in the car licensing arena but everything of the kind in the drone flying arena. with all the deaths and accidents in the car world, don't you wonder why the government fails to implement similar licensing rules that they impose on drones in the name of safety?

plus-----

another 7 people killed on a georgia highway from a wrong way driver. whole families getting wipedout. so far thousands of americans have lost their lives to wrong way drivers and what has the government done about it in the same of safety? practically nothing. this has been going on for decades and we still have this tragic mistake happening with no end in sight. the only thing i've ever seen done to help prevent this would be to put red reflectors on the highway so if you going down the wrong side at night, you'll know it. otherwise, you get some places to throw up a wired fence between the opposing lanes to try to stop a crossover. but that take years and years to get them approved and installed and because they're so expensive, so many highways are without them.

so where does that leave us? the car industry has to implement the technology and why won't they? paralyzed by government rules and regulations and litigation. the car industry knows how to help prevent this but the 2019 ford has the same government-mandated collision-avoidance technology on it as a 1919 ford: none. everyone on this board has a good idea how to development technology to avert a head-on collision, i have a dozen ideas myself. ever wonder why the government claims they are doing everything in the name of safety but have done nothing to prevent this? to borrow a phrase often used in this forum, do we need to wait until the first person is killed before we pass a regulation? maybe they're making up for this by going after a soft target, drones. at this pace, the recreational drone industry will be paralyzed by 2025. there won't be any mavic 6s or 7s or 8s.

 

[The Editor]

What I'm trying to point out is that . The only rule which the general public are aware of is that drones should not be flown over crowds. Hence at a football match a drone is seen . Then how would those within in crowd know of the exceptions ? And wouldn't that then give the notion that ' bloody drones and the owners ' are totally irresponsible. . Given us the responsible hobbyists a bad name . I therefore make the case that when there are exceptions there's always confusion and the innocent loose out.

Emergency service UAV's are clearly marked with the usual colours (by law they have to be).
Does it cause you or other people confusion when a police car goes past you on the motorway at 100mph?
Do people, say '**** speeder.....giving us sensible drivers a bad name'?

 

[kensteele]

Emergency service UAV's are clearly marked with the usual colours (by law they have to be).
Does it cause you or other people confusion when a police car goes past you on the motorway at 100mph?
Do people, say '**** speeder.....giving us sensible drivers a bad name'?

for me it doesn't confuse me because the police car is not the only vehicle going 100mph+. if all the cars on the highway never went 100mph and only police, then yes i would have cause for concern. to put this into context, i once saw a trooper had to be going 150mph+. to me that high rate of speed is unacceptable, nothing you can say to justify that speed (and he wasn't chasing anyone that i could tell). so for 150, i was confused and conserve (see my last sentence).

anyway, some communities and departments would never allow for 100mph speeds, even with lights and sirens which simply isn't enough, too dangerous too risky for the general public. i'm almost sure that's my community.

 

[Alanc]

My point being that an emergency vehicle can easily be identified and accepted. But a drone above a crowd is a drone above a crowd.... nothing to identify it from any other drone. No driver no pilot... could be a terrorist ... could be anyone ... the public therefore are naive and hence their perceived ignorance and distane for us hobbyists.

 

[gnirtS]

Theres no ignorance. Most of the time they wont even see it.
And the public isnt pathologically stupid enough to now know the laws. They're everywhere. They're provided when you buy a drone, they're reinforced online. Nobody in the country with a drone is unaware of the law.
If someone in the crowd goes to the police and says "theres a drone over there" they'll say "yes its ours".

Its a non issue. The police are acting completely within the law, a civilian can also do it by getting the required certifications and training. And the public isnt pathologically stupid - they're able to discern what is and isnt needed.

The main problem is the drone community seems to be one of the least mature of any hobby ive seen. They think the laws dont apply to them, make no attempt to adhere to the law, operate illegally most of the time and then have the cheek to complain when other users do the same thing legally.

 

[FoxhallGH]

The main problem is the drone community seems to be one of the least mature of any hobby ive seen. They think the laws dont apply to them, make no attempt to adhere to the law, operate illegally most of the time and then have the cheek to complain when other users do the same thing legally.

I'm not entirely in disagreement with you @gnirtS - but I do think you are being a little myopic! If you look around a bit and join other Facebook groups and Drone forums, you will find some idiots - yes - but you'll find a whole lot more people putting their heads above the parapet, educating the clueless and careless and calling out the criminals and rule benders (being labelled as 'Drone Police' for it too). Like most things in life (and Politics!), it's the people who make the banner headlines by any means, who get noticed. Most of us who just get on with it, aren't noticed - but are however, the silent majority.

 

[Alanc]

Theres no ignorance. Most of the time they wont even see it.
And the public isnt pathologically stupid enough to now know the laws. They're everywhere. They're provided when you buy a drone, they're reinforced online. Nobody in the country with a drone is unaware of the law.
If someone in the crowd goes to the police and says "theres a drone over there" they'll say "yes its ours".

Its a non issue. The police are acting completely within the law, a civilian can also do it by getting the required certifications and training. And the public isnt pathologically stupid - they're able to discern what is and isnt needed.

The main problem is the drone community seems to be one of the least mature of any hobby ive seen. They think the laws dont apply to them, make no attempt to adhere to the law, operate illegally most of the time and then have the cheek to complain when other users do the same thing legally.

You have missed my point completely, Too wrapped up in your own bliss x

 

[STKNRUD]

Since you do not hold PfCO (or you would totally understand the abbreviations), it really will not apply to hobbyist flyers since they will be unable to gain permissions to fly over crowds.
However, to satisfy your curiosity
OSC - Operating Safety Case
SUAS - Small Unmanned Aircraft System
NQE - National Qualified Entity

And in case you don't know....
PfCO - Permission for Commercial Operation.

Or of course you could always use Google!

Congratulations! You won the prize for sarcasm and rudeness to us mere mortals . I flew commercially for 40 years, and seldom heard that much ego on display.