Permission? Or forgiveness?

[Chaosrider]

If you start a "drone flying training" as a bussiness, one thing that should be part of it is "how to prepare for a flight". And i.m.o. checking if you are allowed to fly from the spot and in the area you start is one thing. So you could prepare for three or more areas where people would like to fly, check the rules and then tell your participants "Where would you like to fly? Choose one and find out if it is allowed or not." You would know the answers, so if they say, they would like to take of at Kennedy Airport and they would not find out about the restrictions there, you could point that out to them. (just as an example, I guess you know what I mean).

Pre-flight planning will certainly be part of the process.

Thx!

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

It's probably just me, but it seems odd that somebody who plans to teach others how to fly a drone would "just do it" when faced with a potential regulatory question.

"Just doing it" would be on a recreational basis. Perhaps a bad idea.

I don't know how many of you have been involved with formal strategic planning, but in the paradigm that I use, the initial "brainstorm" phase is about tossing out ideas, without any pre-qualification. It's never expected that all of those brainstorm ideas, will be GOOD ideas.

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

It is better to get them on your side then to have them against you.
Getting to know the police in the area is the best thing you can do.
It would great to have them as a friend then just another PIA that they might have to do paperwork on.
You would not like it if someone came into your work area and disturbed you or created more work.
Remember that you are "teaching" so get them started on the right path.

I've always had good relations with law enforcement. I certainly wouldn't expect to change that.

Thx,

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

There might be extra concerns regarding liability issues with student pilots - both your liability for possible harm to students and combined liability of you and the students for harm a student flier causes to third parties or property.

I realize many of us are frustrated with what we see as unreasonable concerns about liability etc. but there could be some real potential for an accident with relatively inexperienced students flying drones in a public park.

Howard

This is a very serious issue, which is why I've been asking about insurance options.

Then there's the whole TRUST requirement. Suppose all of the permission stuff is worked out, and I'm buzzing around, and someone walks up to me and is interested. The way I understand the current regulations, I couldn't even let them fly under my direct supervision, unless they take the TRUST test first.

That's not a reasonable requirement, but if it *IS* the current requirement, I need to figure out how to deal with that from a marketing perspective.

Thx,

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

Long term, permission is always the best. Especially if you're starting a business. You don't want to start out on the wrong foot.

Local news: "drone pilot arrested for operating an illegal drone training session in local park... blah blah"

Before I start full-up commercial operations, I'll need to get a business license, and I'll be setting up an LLC as well.

Many of the "business" related requirements will emerge during that process.

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

I train drone spotter students at a local park in Campbell, CA. I emailed the city about their drone regulations, and they replied back that the City of Campbell does not regulated drones. I keep a paper copy of that email in my flight bag.

That sounds like a good idea!

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

I mean this in the nicest possible way but. . . . why did you even ask in the first place sir? Every single reply suggests you "Do the right thing and ask first" and then you say "I'll just try and fly there this weekend".

Truth is, you had planned to "just go fly" anyway and you had hoped you'd get some support from like minded people on this forum to reinforce your intentions.

At some point you have to have some personal integrity and even more so if you're planning to instruct others. Do the right thing from the get-go!!

Allen

Well, a couple of things.

I respond to things here the same way I do in email discussions....strictly FIFO. If I get a string of responses, I just respond to them in the order that I receive them. So, if there are half a dozen messages that say "Ask First!", I won't have incorporated all of them, before I respond to the first one.

Your model of my motivations is profoundly flawed, good sir! I had absolutely not decided that I just wanted to "go do it". I still haven't.

When I'm trying to decide between two options, I don't reserve judgement until careful analysis; I "try on" both of them, alternately believing one, and then the other. Even when, as in this case, the two are mutually inconsistent. I keep doing this, and gathering more information, until the obvious right answer emerges.

You may have an exaggerated notion of how "baked" I require an idea to be, before I'll toss it out in "brainstorming" mode!

I have a great deal of personal integrity. I feel vaguely insulted, and I don't know why you would even mention that.

You might want to consider the possibility that you have a tendency to see nefariousness, when none is actually there...

;-)

Thx,

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

If a true no fly zone by City / Park standards - they "should" have signage posted to that effect. Calling them may work and may not. See A LOT of people who post that it depends on WHOM you speak with on a given day as to what the rules are.

Would be nice for cities / towns / counties / states if they put a "no fly" into effect for areas - they'd let DJI / Aloft / other apps know so that WE know before we fly. Some do, some don't - so that leaves a lot up in the air.

Exactly. There are no prohibitions signs, that was one of the things that I checked out yesterday.

It may be the right thing to ask first (recreational), but it's absolutely not obvious. Asking could prod concerns, when none would have been present otherwise.

I'm getting the clear idea that I live in a different political and social climate than many folks on this list. Here, "Anything not prohibited, is permitted", pretty much rules.

And in this whole area, the LEOs are all basically nice and reasonable. If I just go down to the park and fly (recreationally) in a safe manner, it's highly unlikely that a LEO would come up to me starting from a position of hostility. They'd more likely be curious. But if a LEO did come up and tell me I couldn't fly there, I'd respond fully truthfully with, "Really? I didn't know that." I'd stop and pack up, and then check it out later. No harm, no foul.

This conversation has taken an odd moralistic tone, but it's still interesting!

Thx,

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

If you don't see a "No Drone" sign, you should be in the clear provided the apps confirm that as well

There are no signs, and both the sectional chart and the DJI app show no restrictions.

I don't see any realistic downsides, under those conditions, to just going to fly around a bit.

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

Ummm that's not reality. In a perfect world that would be the case but we see just the opposite MANY times over. You know what the word ASSUME stands for?

But given that's the case, in this community, I won't get dinged for acting safely from a good faith belief that it's legal to fly...which I think it is.

Commercial will be different, but I've got a few steps first before that happens.

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

Since you are planning on monetizing the use of a drone (drone training business), you need to be aware that you will require a Part 107 license. Just learning and applying for this license will address all of your concerns and questions. If you monetize your use of drones without a Part 107 license, you could be in serious financial liability.

I've got the 107 license. And while there are parts of the rules that I would change, I'll follow them. I'm comfortable with that.

The immediately thread is more of a local land use/regulation issue.

Thx!

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

ANY type of training infers some risk, and as a result some liability to you and others. Have a business plan, ensure that your properly licensed to have a small biz in the community where you plan to operate (especially if you seek to operate on public spaces) and obtain insurance.

Most cities/AHJ's will want to be named as an additional insured and have you get a certificate of insurance (usually for at least a mill) to cover this. This is not very difficult or expensive, it just takes planning and time.

No good deed goes unpunished....

Yes, the LLC and business license are definitely in the plan, but not just yet. I'm already looking into the insurance issues, and from the responses that I've gotten, it does indeed look to be affordable.

I hadn't thought about the county wanting to included as a named insured, but that's certainly a reasonable request.

Thx,

TCS

I think you're asking the wrong people. I don't understand why you didn't just call the park ... they were trivially easy to find on Google.

Fuji Park - Carson City, NV (Address and Phone)

Looking for Fuji Park location & facilities? Quickly find Park phone number, directions & more (Carson City, NV).

www.countyoffice.org

And if you expected that you might have to ask forgiveness after the fact, how do you expect to operate a recurring business there? You aren't likely to get away with asking forgiveness more than once.

Very little of this makes an sense to me at all.

Probably because you and I think about things differently...

;-)

Thanks for the pointer! I'm just not to a decision point on this yet. And there's no way I'll connect with anyone there this weekend.

More generally, I'm frequently as interested in conversation and commentary as I am a "look-up" answer. In a conversation, you'll see a number of different perspectives, and I value that.

TCS

 

[SethB]

…Then there's the whole TRUST requirement. Suppose all of the permission stuff is worked out, and I'm buzzing around, and someone walks up to me and is interested. The way I understand the current regulations, I couldn't even let them fly under my direct supervision, unless they take the TRUST test first...

That’s an interesting question. Before TRUST a Part 107 remote pilot in command could designate a non-certificated person manipulating the controls even in commercial work if the pilot directly supervised the flight and could immediately take control of the aircraft.

That’s how much flight instruction took place. With the limitation of one aircraft per certificated pilot.

Then the FAA clarified that education fell under the recreational exemption, and an instructor could teach multiple ”rec” students with drones in the air.

I’m an educator, not a lawyer, but I’d guess either approach works now. Except, IF rec, students need to complete TRUST.

 

[Chaosrider]

That’s an interesting question. Before TRUST a Part 107 remote pilot in command could designate a non-certificated person manipulating the controls even in commercial work if the pilot directly supervised the flight and could immediately take control of the aircraft.

That’s how much flight instruction took place. With the limitation of one aircraft per certificated pilot.

Then the FAA clarified that education fell under the recreational exemption, and an instructor could teach multiple ”rec” students with drones in the air.

I’m an educator, not a lawyer, but I’d guess either approach works now. Except, IF rec, students need to complete TRUST.

Hmmm...OK.

I have my 107, so if I understand you correctly, if I fly under the 107 rules, I can teach a student(s) who doesn't have the TRUST thing done, and let them fly as long as they are under my direct supervision.

That would make sense!

Thx,

TCS

 

[[email protected].]

All of my flying so far has been from my house. It's a great place to fly, but not for students or the timid. I'm starting a drone training business, and I found a nice park near me that would be great for beginners.

My question is...do I just fly and see if anyone objects, or should I check with somebody first. It's fine from both an FAA airspace standpoint, and the DJI Fly map. I'm more concerned about local LEOs.

My inclination is to just do it, but I wanted to see what the collective wisdom of this group thought about the issue.

The Place is Fuji Park, in Douglas County, Nevada.

Thx!

TCS

May I respectfully recommend NOT just do it! Someone has authority over this area - city, county, or maybe even state, I don't know the area. I fly routine training flights from two city parks here in St. Augustine, FL. Before the very first flight, I checked with the city and finally got the right contact. I have an Email from the city official that authorizes flight and only to follow FAA rules and regulations. I plan on flying a special mission from a city park in Alabama overlooking the Coosa River. Yes, I contacted the city and have written permission. It is essential that you have proper authorizations (in writing) - otherwise you could be looking at some VERY hefty fines.

 

[reaperman]

To me, a public park is just that. Free for the public to use whether it’s 18 people playing baseball or flying drones. It’s not even legal to keep homeless people from using the facilities in less than desirable manners.

 

[Chaosrider]

May I respectfully recommend NOT just do it! Someone has authority over this area - city, county, or maybe even state, I don't know the area. I fly routine training flights from two city parks here in St. Augustine, FL. Before the very first flight, I checked with the city and finally got the right contact. I have an Email from the city official that authorizes flight and only to follow FAA rules and regulations. I plan on flying a special mission from a city park in Alabama overlooking the Coosa River. Yes, I contacted the city and have written permission. It is essential that you have proper authorizations (in writing) - otherwise you could be looking at some VERY hefty fines.

It's just not like that here.

No FAA restricted area, no warnings in DJI Fly, no signs at the park prohibiting drones, flying in a legal, safe, and benign manner...there's no way that I would get a big fine for flying there under those conditions.

If a LEO did approach me about it, it's virtually certain that he would do so in a respectful and civilized manner, and if he told me to stop, I would, and that would be the end of it. Unless he just wanted a demo, in which case I'd give him one!

Out here in the inter-mountain west, we don't assume that you need to get permission to do things. In a public place, the burden of responsibility is on the government to tell you you can't do something.

It's a different way of thinking than east of the Mississippi. It's part of the reason that I live here.



TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

To me, a public park is just that. Free for the public to use whether it’s 18 people playing baseball or flying drones. It’s not even legal to keep homeless people from using the facilities in less than desirable manners.

We don't have much of a homeless problem here. They'd all freeze to death in the winter, or die of some heat related ailment in the summer.

But I agree with you main point completely.

Out here, if the government doesn't clearly tell you that you can't do something on public land, then you can.

TCS

 

[jencarta]

Yes, as tlswift58 said, it would be nice to have signage, but in my experience, that is usually not the case. It’s always a good idea to try to find out before you fly. Search the internet, make some calls. It’s likely you will only be warned once, but you also cannot expect forgiveness if the rules were posted somewhere for the public to see.

 

[Chaosrider]

Yes, as tlswift58 said, it would be nice to have signage, but in my experience, that is usually not the case. It’s always a good idea to try to find out before you fly. Search the internet, make some calls. It’s likely you will only be warned once, but you also cannot expect forgiveness if the rules were posted somewhere for the public to see.

There were no signs posted there. I checked specifically for that.

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse" is more of an eastern thing. If there's nothing posted, you'll get a warning if you accidentally violate some ordinance.

Repeat offenders would get a lot less slack, of course.

TCS