ProRes Noise

[rmb]

When I first got the M3 Cine, I notice a lot of noise in the dark areas while shooting in prores 422. Then a firmware update came out that seemed to fix it. Now (and perhaps it’s back because of the newest firmware update) I was shooting in bright sunlight in otherwise ideal conditions with an ND filter, but at a 400 iso, and a 5.6 over a river and I noticed while grading it, the darkest areas of the image (like the dark river and some shadows on shore) were really noisy.
Curious if anyone else is seeing this in the post production process?

Thanks,
R

 

[brett8883]

When I first got the M3 Cine, I notice a lot of noise in the dark areas while shooting in prores 422. Then a firmware update came out that seemed to fix it. Now (and perhaps it’s back because of the newest firmware update) I was shooting in bright sunlight in otherwise ideal conditions with an ND filter, but at a 400 iso, and a 5.6 over a river and I noticed while grading it, the darkest areas of the image (like the dark river and some shadows on shore) were really noisy.
Curious if anyone else is seeing this in the post production process?

Thanks,
R

Noise in shadows is an indication of not enough light hitting the sensor. If you were using ISO 400 that means you were two stops under exposed assuming this is with normal color.

Especially with video, ISO isn’t actually part of the exposure. Your ND filter, aperture, and shutter speed are the only things that affect the actual amount of light hitting the sensor so if you are having to use iso 400 you are boosting the image up artificially which causes noise in the dark areas on an image. Generally we only use base ISO during filming and if really needed we can boost the signal in post. Exceptions of course exist but it’s better to not think of iso as adjustable.

You either didn’t need the ND filter or should have opened the aperture to f/2.8 instead of boosting ISO. Boosting the image by 2 stops is bound to have a negative effect on image quality and that will show up most pronounced in shadow regions.

 

[rmb]

Thank you for your feedback brett8883! Very much appreciated My next comment is NOT to be snotty, just to put my observations into context and perhaps legitimise them for all.
I have been a professional videographer for 30 years and live eat drink and sleep the holy trinity of exposure.
As a professional, we of course use the lowest ISO possible to keep the image clean and as free of noise/grain as possible and Dlog has ISO limitations.
Below are my complete camera settings.

1. An f-stop between a 5.6 and sometimes as high as an 8.
2. I was using a 3-stop ND so as to keep my shutter angle where I wanted it. I was shooting at 30 fps at a 180-degree shutter (1/60th).
3. I was shooting ProRes 422 (not HQ)
4. An iso of 400. 800 is the only other native ISO in Dlog and that's just too high for me. I shoot in Dlog (especially in bright conditions as I appreciate the extra dynamic range and frankly I don't like the way hasselblad handles highlights and sharpening in their profile.
5. My exposure meter showed that I was consistently at between a +.3 and a + 1 exposure (I always tend to over-expose for log)
6. And lastly, not that it matters, My WB was set manually to 6300. Yes, 5600 is daylight but I have to do that to make up for the slight color-shift that my ND filter imposes.

Back to my firmware comment. I only mentioned it because DJI did acknowledge in (I believe) the second to last firmware update that they "fixed noise in Prores profile" that's why I suspected that that could be it, as well as the fact that a lot of early pro-users on line complaining about it.
Again, many thanks for your otherwise accurate assessment, but in this case, I don't believe that was my issue.
Best,
r

 

[christangey]

Thank you for your feedback brett8883! Very much appreciated My next comment is NOT to be snotty, just to put my observations into context and perhaps legitimise them for all.
I have been a professional videographer for 30 years and live eat drink and sleep the holy trinity of exposure.
As a professional, we of course use the lowest ISO possible to keep the image clean and as free of noise/grain as possible and Dlog has ISO limitations.
Below are my complete camera settings.

1. An f-stop between a 5.6 and sometimes as high as an 8.
2. I was using a 3-stop ND so as to keep my shutter angle where I wanted it. I was shooting at 30 fps at a 180-degree shutter (1/60th).
3. I was shooting ProRes 422 (not HQ)
4. An iso of 400. 800 is the only other native ISO in Dlog and that's just too high for me. I shoot in Dlog (especially in bright conditions as I appreciate the extra dynamic range and frankly I don't like the way hasselblad handles highlights and sharpening in their profile.
5. My exposure meter showed that I was consistently at between a +.3 and a + 1 exposure (I always tend to over-expose for log)
6. And lastly, not that it matters, My WB was set manually to 6300. Yes, 5600 is daylight but I have to do that to make up for the slight color-shift that my ND filter imposes.

Back to my firmware comment. I only mentioned it because DJI did acknowledge in (I believe) the second to last firmware update that they "fixed noise in Prores profile" that's why I suspected that that could be it, as well as the fact that a lot of early pro-users on line complaining about it.
Again, many thanks for your otherwise accurate assessment, but in this case, I don't believe that was my issue.
Best,
r

Nicely put

 

[niki]

Thank you for your feedback brett8883! Very much appreciated My next comment is NOT to be snotty, just to put my observations into context and perhaps legitimise them for all.
I have been a professional videographer for 30 years and live eat drink and sleep the holy trinity of exposure.
As a professional, we of course use the lowest ISO possible to keep the image clean and as free of noise/grain as possible and Dlog has ISO limitations.
Below are my complete camera settings.

1. An f-stop between a 5.6 and sometimes as high as an 8.
2. I was using a 3-stop ND so as to keep my shutter angle where I wanted it. I was shooting at 30 fps at a 180-degree shutter (1/60th).
3. I was shooting ProRes 422 (not HQ)
4. An iso of 400. 800 is the only other native ISO in Dlog and that's just too high for me. I shoot in Dlog (especially in bright conditions as I appreciate the extra dynamic range and frankly I don't like the way hasselblad handles highlights and sharpening in their profile.
5. My exposure meter showed that I was consistently at between a +.3 and a + 1 exposure (I always tend to over-expose for log)
6. And lastly, not that it matters, My WB was set manually to 6300. Yes, 5600 is daylight but I have to do that to make up for the slight color-shift that my ND filter imposes.

Back to my firmware comment. I only mentioned it because DJI did acknowledge in (I believe) the second to last firmware update that they "fixed noise in Prores profile" that's why I suspected that that could be it, as well as the fact that a lot of early pro-users on line complaining about it.
Again, many thanks for your otherwise accurate assessment, but in this case, I don't believe that was my issue.
Best,
r

Hello, did you found solution to the problem? Was that a firmware issue or that’s just the limit of the camera?

 

[tls3601]

Newbie question about Pro Res. As I will be editing using Final Cut Pro and am considering a Mavic 3 Pro Cine, I have a couple questions about the Cine. First: is Apple Pro Res just a better codec that will give me more info to edit from so as to produce a better result in post? Or does it surpass 10 bit raw processing, in other words if I want ultimate picture quality do I need the Cine? Second: Can I use a removable SD card with the Cine and record Pro Res to it, or can I only record to the card with another format on the Cine? Or to record in Pro Res can I only send to the internal 1TB SSD? Maybe the Cine doesn’t even have a slot for an SD card??? Anyways thanks. Tom

 

[RoryG]

Newbie question about Pro Res. As I will be editing using Final Cut Pro and am considering a Mavic 3 Pro Cine, I have a couple questions about the Cine. First: is Apple Pro Res just a better codec that will give me more info to edit from so as to produce a better result in post? Or does it surpass 10 bit raw processing, in other words if I want ultimate picture quality do I need the Cine? Second: Can I use a removable SD card with the Cine and record Pro Res to it, or can I only record to the card with another format on the Cine? Or to record in Pro Res can I only send to the internal 1TB SSD? Maybe the Cine doesn’t even have a slot for an SD card??? Anyways thanks. Tom

ProRes is a proprietary Apple codec originally designed for editing in FCPX. It has several flavours based on colour information and compression: 4444XQ, 4444, 422HQ, 422, 422LT and 422 proxy (the numbers relate to the colour information and the letters are an indication of compression). If you edit in FCPX then you will likely be using ProRes without even knowing it. They use a .mov container, have a range of resolutions and are all 10bit. It is still a compressed codec and is not as flexible as the newer ProRes Raw, however it does retain far more colours than 420 codecs such as H.264.

The M3C can record ProRes 422HQ, 422 and 422LT to the internal SSD, you can’t record to the SD card, nor can you record H.264 to the SD at the same time (like the Inspire 2 can). Another limitation (certainly with the original M3C) is you can’t use functions such as activetrack, spotlight, etc., when shooting ProRes.

If you’re after the best video quality, and especially if you shoot in log then ProRes is the way to go. You still have all the normal H.264/5 codecs that you can record to either the SSD or the SD card, so you have the best of both worlds. Remember that ProRes files can be pretty big compared to H.264 so you’ll need lots of fast storage (4K 422 at 30p has a target bitrate of 629Mb/s, or 283GB per hour of footage).

 

[tls3601]

Thanks for this info. Just about 100% sure I will be using a M2 Max MacBook Pro 16 with Final Cut Pro and Logic X installed. Trying to figure out system needs and if having Pro Res is worth it. I take it FCP is optimized for Pro Res? I am also planning on running a monster external HD off the Mac, probably 20TB, thoughts? Or do you think the regular M3 Pro in 10 bit or 265 could be just as good a final product that could be achieved with Pro Res? Thanks again so much. Tom

 

[RoryG]

Thanks for this info. Just about 100% sure I will be using a M2 Max MacBook Pro 16 with Final Cut Pro and Logic X installed. Trying to figure out system needs and if having Pro Res is worth it. I take it FCP is optimized for Pro Res? I am also planning on running a monster external HD off the Mac, probably 20TB, thoughts? Or do you think the regular M3 Pro in 10 bit or 265 could be just as good a final product that could be achieved with Pro Res? Thanks again so much. Tom

Hi Tom, a M2 MBP will be perfect for any editing. ProRes is far easier to decode than H.264 or H.265 and it is fully optimised for MacOS / FCPX, by default FCPX will render media on the timeline in ProRes, and you have the option to transcode the clips on import to ProRes in a flavour of your choosing. For H.265 projects I would recommend creating proxy media inside FCPX, then after your edit and colour correction it will use the original media for export.

A monster Thunderbolt HD or NAS is great for longer term storage of your projects and clips, but I would suggest you also get a 1 or 2 TB Thunderbolt SSD drive to use as a scratch disk for editing your projects, then when complete move the whole lot over to your external storage. I have a M1 Mac Studio Ultra which has a 2TB G-Tech external SSD that I use as a scratch disk, then a 24TB Synology DS920+ RAID drive connected to the network. Small H.264 projects I can get acceptable performance straight from the NAS, but larger projects I always us the SSD.

To answer your last question it all depends on what you are delivering. For corporate videos, that kind of thing then the 10bit or even 8bit H.264 media will be fine, but if you’re delivering dailies to a production house then ProRes is the way to go. My call would be to get the Cine then you have the best of both worlds, you can use it as a standard M3 or record to ProRes, but if you get just the M3 Pro then you don’t have the option without buying a new drone.

Cheers, Rory

 

[tls3601]

Thanks for this Rory, very well explained, I will be getting the MacBook M2 Max with 2 TB installed, probably the 96 of RAM too as I want some forward compatibility when 8K becomes a bigger thing. I considered a PC based laptop but as I want true portability and the battery life on the Apples is so much better to say nothing of the heat generated by a powerful PC based laptop, it is going to be Apple. Tom

 

[brett8883]

Thanks for this Rory, very well explained, I will be getting the MacBook M2 Max with 2 TB installed, probably the 96 of RAM too as I want some forward compatibility when 8K becomes a bigger thing. I considered a PC based laptop but as I want true portability and the battery life on the Apples is so much better to say nothing of the heat generated by a powerful PC based laptop, it is going to be Apple. Tom

Think about this. The SSD on the M3 cine is already 1TB and that is less than 30 minutes of ProRes footage. So your 2TB laptop can only hold at most 1 hour of 4k ProRes footage and in reality much less because you’ll have all kinds of system files and other media on it. You could easily run out of storage space on your computer before you discharge all your drone batteries for the first time.

To be totally honest even I’m not really sure that Final Cut can do things that is really going to be putting an M2 Max with 96 gigs of RAM to use, however, I know for a fact that’s not enough storage. @RoryG makes good points that you will NEED both fast portable external SSDs for your working files and then something like a NAS to store the stuff you aren’t actively working on. I think you’d be much better served by getting the entry level M2 Pro with 32 gigs of ram and investing the money saved into external storage.