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Remote ID wouldn't have prevented this mid-air

If the drone operator had had the typical ADS-B info on his screen this probably wouldn't have happened in my opinion because unlike the AIR 2..the screen shows clearly the altitude and whether the aircraft is climbing or descending. At 300 ft the helicopter was probably holding altitude with the pilots attention mainly outside. I'm sure the drone pilot was using his screen and should have been able to avoid the helicopter with that simple basic ADS-B information. However....a typical situation..two pilots are flying both have screens ....and you say ..hey do you still have that guy..I've lost him on my screen....yeah..he's still on mine ..so..you have to be warned..just because your screen is blank it doesn't mean there is no one there.
 
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That sounds like a better idea/solution than the current remote ID proposal.
I'd like to see automatic collision avoidance that is human-error, fool proof even for a juvenile delinquent. ADS-B won't work if the other aircraft doesn't have it installed, those are the planes operating down low, in our environment. ADS-b would address the proposed ID issue and provide some situational awareness. There are methods to de-clutter if an overload is anticipated, I see no reason not to include it, as a dual channel system.

ADB-S out on the drone would be a consistent solution, but has been completely ruled out as the path forwards. Declutter could be overcome, but in a broadcast system the potential to swamp the frequencies with transmissions would be too great. It was never envisaged to deal with that level of traffic.
 
You basically must have ADS-B. You can not enter any controlled airspace without it, meaning you can't land at any FAA controlled airport. Crop dusters probably don't have it but are you really not going to notice a crop duster?
If you download the kmz from here:
You will see that you need it mostly everywhere.

Screen Shot 2020-06-10 at 10.54.19 AM.png
 
You basically must have ADS-B. You can not enter any controlled airspace without it, meaning you can't land at any FAA controlled airport. Crop dusters probably don't have it but are you really not going to notice a crop duster?
If you download the kmz from here:
You will see that you need it mostly everywhere.

View attachment 104279

You don't need it in Class D or Class E except over 10,000 ft - that excludes a fairly large chunk of controlled airspace.
 
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ADB-S out on the drone would be a consistent solution, but has been completely ruled out as the path forwards. Declutter could be overcome, but in a broadcast system the potential to swamp the frequencies with transmissions would be too great. It was never envisaged to deal with that level of traffic.
In a different thread it was mentioned that the data packet size would be small or maybe use little band width. Just what would it take to swamp the ADS-b system ? I can't imagine that happening, or even if it did, there'd be a way to buffer or share fewer packets in the system within a region.
 
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In a different thread it was mentioned that the data packet size would be small or maybe use little band width. Just what would it take to swamp the ADS-b system ? I can't imagine that happening, or even if it did, there'd be a way to buffer or share fewer packets in the system within a region.

I don't think the problem is once the data gets into any system - the problem is all the aircraft ADS-B transmissions stepping on each other.
 
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I don't think the problem is once the data gets into any system - the problem is all the aircraft ADS-B transmissions stepping on each other.
They implemented Mode S back some time ago so that the interrogator picks which transponder it wants to hear from. And that would be to relieve some of the radio collisions. ADS-B hacked all that and wants to put your local weather channel station on it. The packet is too much and even without the weather channel, it's more like a computer network sitting around having a conversation. But the ADS-B In that you can do on your phone is a simple and easy solution. If you can plot your drone on there with it (even if the planes can't be bothered with that--the whole idea of having to do the traffic controller's job is a little much). One thing they left out of the ADS-B specification (even as much as the Administrator of the FAA goes bonkers over this thing), is that it still fails to show just how many terrorists are on board.
 
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They implemented Mode S back some time ago so that the interrogator picks which transponder it wants to hear from. And that would be to relieve some of the radio collisions. ADS-B hacked all that and wants to put your local weather channel station on it. The packet is too much and even without the weather channel, it's more like a computer network sitting around having a conversation. But the ADS-B In that you can do on your phone is a simple and easy solution. If you can plot your drone on there with it (even if the planes can't be bothered with that--the whole idea of having to do the traffic controller's job is a little much). One thing they left out of the ADS-B specification (even as much as the Administrator of the FAA goes bonkers over this thing), is that it still fails to show just how many terrorists are on board.

Agreed on ADS-B in. The price is going to put off many users though - the Sentry Mini is the cheapest at $300, and you still need to run ForeFlight to use it.
 
Agreed on ADS-B in. The price is going to put off many users though - the Sentry Mini is the cheapest at $300, and you still need to run ForeFlight to use it.
that's because you are paying for a full blown flight planner, which you don't need 90% of - if a market opened up for just ADS-B not doubt some lower cost, if not free software would come out that is not flight certified.

Same with the hardware if all of a sudden many more started buying it would find a lower price point.
I'd be surprized if DJI's cost on thier ADSB in is more that 10.00 in quanity.
There is a DYI option that it sounds like you could build for 150.00 or so.
 
Here's the CADORS report on that incident. Go to: CADORS: Query and search for CADORS number: 2020P0775

Note the CADORS report list the drone as a "FLIR SkyRanger R60 - 2.4 kg". But that's merely the published weight of the drone itself without payload. It would surely have been carrying sophisticated camera gear.

It is curious that incident happened way back in February, but wasn't reported in the CADORS system until June. Is that due to police secrecy about their operations? The incident occurred during aerial surveillance operations conducted against the Wet’suwet’en protests over pipeline construction across their territory.

See GlobalNews report: RCMP helicopter and drone collided during Wet’suwet’en protests in northern B.C.: TSB report

Even more curious, that GlobalNews report goes on to mention the Oct 2017 incident as the "only other mid-air collision in Canada that has been investigated by the TSB". That incident was flogged by the media and authorities, trumpeted as the first documented case (in the entire world) of a mid-air collision between a drone and passenger aircraft. It prompted Transport Canada to overnight issue Interim Rules imposing all sorts of stringent restrictions on drones. And yet, we only have the pilot's opinion that it was a drone they'd hit. There was never any proof that it actually was a drone.

Still the media touted that one as a catastrophe narrowly avoided, a drone almost brought down an airliner over crowded Quebec City. Even this latest GlobalNews clip inserted a photo of what they think is a "consumer drone" along with a Porter Airlines Dehavilland, when in fact nobody knows anything about the type of drone (if it even was one), and the plane was a much smaller Beechcraft King Air A100. The damage was a tiny dimple in the leading edge of the wing with some scratches to the paint. "The damage was minor and had no effect on the airworthiness of the aircraft. The aircraft was returned to service the same day." Check out the photos in the TSB report for that one: Aviation Transportation Safety Investigation Report A17Q0162 - Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Do a Google search on "drone hits plane quebec" and you'll see all the hysterical reporting generated by that incident. And yet, now we have an actual documented case of a large commercial drone colliding with a helicopter, causing damage to the main rotor, the tail structure, and even the tail rotor, and the pilot merely felt a vibration. "The helicopter suffered some initial vibration and the pilot completed a precautionary landing on a road without further incident."

Weren't we all led to believe that a "consumer drone" was capable of bringing down an airliner? If not that, well surely a helicopter. It merely has to touch the tail rotor, no? Well, apparently not.

That non-incident over Quebec City generated press reports around the world, and still gets mentioned in the GlobalNews article above. It resulted in knee-jerk drone regulations. Plastic bags over Heathrow, invisible drones over Gatwick, endless reports of almost-catastrophic near-misses (i.e. non-collisions), all generate more media interest and ever more regulations.

Yet here we have an actual documented (non-catastrophic) collision between a police-operated industrial-sized drone and a police-operated helicopter carrying three people, and the incident is buried?!? We're only hearing about it now because four months later it has finally appeared in the CADORS system? That's bizarre.
 
that's because you are paying for a full blown flight planner, which you don't need 90% of - if a market opened up for just ADS-B not doubt some lower cost, if not free software would come out that is not flight certified.

Same with the hardware if all of a sudden many more started buying it would find a lower price point.
I'd be surprized if DJI's cost on thier ADSB in is more that 10.00 in quanity.
There is a DYI option that it sounds like you could build for 150.00 or so.

Right - I was simply addressing what is on the market at present - I thought that was the subject of the discussion.
 
Here's the CADORS report on that incident. Go to: CADORS: Query and search for CADORS number: 2020P0775

Note the CADORS report list the drone as a "FLIR SkyRanger R60 - 2.4 kg". But that's merely the published weight of the drone itself without payload. It would surely have been carrying sophisticated camera gear.

It is curious that incident happened way back in February, but wasn't reported in the CADORS system until June. Is that due to police secrecy about their operations? The incident occurred during aerial surveillance operations conducted against the Wet’suwet’en protests over pipeline construction across their territory.

See GlobalNews report: RCMP helicopter and drone collided during Wet’suwet’en protests in northern B.C.: TSB report

Even more curious, that GlobalNews report goes on to mention the Oct 2017 incident as the "only other mid-air collision in Canada that has been investigated by the TSB". That incident was flogged by the media and authorities, trumpeted as the first documented case (in the entire world) of a mid-air collision between a drone and passenger aircraft. It prompted Transport Canada to overnight issue Interim Rules imposing all sorts of stringent restrictions on drones. And yet, we only have the pilot's opinion that it was a drone they'd hit. There was never any proof that it actually was a drone.

Still the media touted that one as a catastrophe narrowly avoided, a drone almost brought down an airliner over crowded Quebec City. Even this latest GlobalNews clip inserted a photo of what they think is a "consumer drone" along with a Porter Airlines Dehavilland, when in fact nobody knows anything about the type of drone (if it even was one), and the plane was a much smaller Beechcraft King Air A100. The damage was a tiny dimple in the leading edge of the wing with some scratches to the paint. "The damage was minor and had no effect on the airworthiness of the aircraft. The aircraft was returned to service the same day." Check out the photos in the TSB report for that one: Aviation Transportation Safety Investigation Report A17Q0162 - Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Do a Google search on "drone hits plane quebec" and you'll see all the hysterical reporting generated by that incident. And yet, now we have an actual documented case of a large commercial drone colliding with a helicopter, causing damage to the main rotor, the tail structure, and even the tail rotor, and the pilot merely felt a vibration. "The helicopter suffered some initial vibration and the pilot completed a precautionary landing on a road without further incident."

Weren't we all led to believe that a "consumer drone" was capable of bringing down an airliner? If not that, well surely a helicopter. It merely has to touch the tail rotor, no? Well, apparently not.

That non-incident over Quebec City generated press reports around the world, and still gets mentioned in the GlobalNews article above. It resulted in knee-jerk drone regulations. Plastic bags over Heathrow, invisible drones over Gatwick, endless reports of almost-catastrophic near-misses (i.e. non-collisions), all generate more media interest and ever more regulations.

Yet here we have an actual documented (non-catastrophic) collision between a police-operated industrial-sized drone and a police-operated helicopter carrying three people, and the incident is buried?!? We're only hearing about it now because four months later it has finally appeared in the CADORS system? That's bizarre.

The news blows everything way out of proportion!
Chances of me running into a drone are extremely small, and even if I do ever hitnone, I don't think it will be a big deal. I've been shot at, and hit multiple LARGE GEESE, so a drone seems inconsequential somehow. Also helicopter windshields are incredibly strong, and not flimsy junk like an automobile has. I realize my measly 17,900 hours is nothing compared to the old guys with 40,000 hours in helicopters, but at least those are my humble opinions.
 
The news blows everything way out of proportion!
Chances of me running into a drone are extremely small, and even if I do ever hitnone, I don't think it will be a big deal. I've been shot at, and hit multiple LARGE GEESE, so a drone seems inconsequential somehow. Also helicopter windshields are incredibly strong, and not flimsy junk like an automobile has. I realize my measly 17,900 hours is nothing compared to the old guys with 40,000 hours in helicopters, but at least those are my humble opinions.

You are correct in regard to military helicopters, but the windshields on light-duty helicopters are not incredibly strong, or even moderately strong. In fact they have a very poor record when it comes to relatively low-mass impacts.


 
Airbus helicopters have VERY STRONG WINDSHIELDS!!! If Sikorsky are flimsy, I don't really know, have flown one of them in over 2 decades, and sure don't miss flying them. Airbus H145 and H175 Windshields are strong, my first hand experience.
If you had a different experience fly them into some objects, I am sorry to hear that. But in my experience, they are **** tough!
 
Airbus helicopters have VERY STRONG WINDSHIELDS!!! If Sikorsky are flimsy, I don't really know, have flown one of them in over 2 decades, and sure don't miss flying them. Airbus H145 and H175 Windshields are strong, my first hand experience.
If you had a different experience fly them into some objects, I am sorry to hear that. But in my experience, they are **** tough!

I don't know what else to tell you - I posted a link to statistics and FAA statements on the subject, which are quite unambiguous. You responded with the assertion that two models of Airbus helicopters have strong windshields without even adding anecdotal evidence to support that statement. Do you know what they are made of? How thick they are? The results of any impact testing?
 
The link you posted earlier, was also to a helicopter crash, where the idiots removed the original strong windshield, and replaced it for some reason with a piece of junk.
Screenshot_20200610-174415_Chrome.jpgScreenshot_20200610-174415_Chrome.jpg
 
The link you posted earlier, was also to a helicopter crash, where the idiots removed the original strong windshield, and replaced it for some reason with a piece of junk.

That's correct - and those acrylic windshields are very common in light helicopters. You didn't read the other paper?
 
After removing some old windshields, myself and others tried breaking them. Hammers, throwing rocks, shooting with a 22, we were all in awe of their amazing strength. A gentle little throw of a rock breaks a car windshield, yet i couldn't throw a rock hard enough to break the windshields from helicopters.
 
After removing some old windshields, myself and others tried breaking them. Hammers, throwing rocks, shooting with a 22, we were all in awe of their amazing strength. A gentle little throw of a rock breaks a car windshield, yet i couldn't throw a rock hard enough to break the windshields from helicopters.

Okay, well we are clearly coming at this issue from completely different perspectives that make this conversation of little value. I'm not going to argue with your anecdotes because they don't represent well-characterized data, and you are clearly not interested in documented data or material science. I've done controlled tests on these materials, and I'm not in awe of them at all. And the history of light-duty helicopter windshield failure from impacts is well documented, and obviously not consistent with your position, which I do not understand at all. But you are certainly entitled to hold it.
 
You basically must have ADS-B. You can not enter any controlled airspace without it, meaning you can't land at any FAA controlled airport. Crop dusters probably don't have it but are you really not going to notice a crop duster?
If you download the kmz from here:
You will see that you need it mostly everywhere.

View attachment 104279
This is a "reception available" map.
In other words, if you're not in the green shaded area, ADS-B IN receiver won't see other traffic. Even then, you need to be at altitude where your receiver has line of sight to the nearest ground station and within around 30 miles of the station. If you're operating a sUAS controlling from on the ground, ADS-B coverage would be even less than this map because of the radio transmission is line of sight reception. I believe, if you were on the prairie or in the mountains and a plane with ADS-B OUT flew directly over your location, you had ADS-B IN, you would not see a signal from that plane. The signal does not transfer aircraft to aircraft. The "in" signal must come from a ground transmit station or the internet which isn't available on the prairie / mountains. TIS does NOT have an air to air repeater feature.

Just over half the fleet of 220,000 registered aircraft, is equipped with ADS-B out....Current Equipage Levels
 
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