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Remote ID wouldn't have prevented this mid-air

I'm obviously not explaining this well. You don't need phone reception - the idea is that the broadcast will use a wifi protocol.
True, but the manned aircraft will still need a receiver of some sort to be able to pick up that broadcast and the power level will only be able to transmit a few hundred feet. This is why I still say this is all about commercializing drones and not about safety of manned aircraft.
 
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True, but the manned aircraft will still need a receiver of some sort to be able to pick up that broadcast and the power level will only be able to transmit a few hundred feet. This is why I still say this is all about commercializing drones and not about safety of manned aircraft.

Why would the broadcast only be good for a few hundred feet, when the existing models using wifi for control work over a mile or more? And the choice of a wifi protocol was so that cell phones could receive the broadcasts directly, without additional equipment.
 
You don't need it in Class D or Class E except over 10,000 ft - that excludes a fairly large chunk of controlled airspace.
Typically, most of the Continental US doesn't really need it. Alaska and over the pond is the only places where it was really needed, but why not require everyone to use it? It's just more expense than needed. You could get by with mode C, hey there's something flying along at my altitude, but mode S and ADS-B are different than mode C emissions. Until radar is phased out, ADS-B shouldn't be required.
 
Here's the CADORS report on that incident. Go to: CADORS: Query and search for CADORS number: 2020P0775

Note the CADORS report list the drone as a "FLIR SkyRanger R60 - 2.4 kg". But that's merely the published weight of the drone itself without payload. It would surely have been carrying sophisticated camera gear.

It is curious that incident happened way back in February, but wasn't reported in the CADORS system until June. Is that due to police secrecy about their operations? The incident occurred during aerial surveillance operations conducted against the Wet’suwet’en protests over pipeline construction across their territory.

See GlobalNews report: RCMP helicopter and drone collided during Wet’suwet’en protests in northern B.C.: TSB report

Even more curious, that GlobalNews report goes on to mention the Oct 2017 incident as the "only other mid-air collision in Canada that has been investigated by the TSB". That incident was flogged by the media and authorities, trumpeted as the first documented case (in the entire world) of a mid-air collision between a drone and passenger aircraft. It prompted Transport Canada to overnight issue Interim Rules imposing all sorts of stringent restrictions on drones. And yet, we only have the pilot's opinion that it was a drone they'd hit. There was never any proof that it actually was a drone.

Still the media touted that one as a catastrophe narrowly avoided, a drone almost brought down an airliner over crowded Quebec City. Even this latest GlobalNews clip inserted a photo of what they think is a "consumer drone" along with a Porter Airlines Dehavilland, when in fact nobody knows anything about the type of drone (if it even was one), and the plane was a much smaller Beechcraft King Air A100. The damage was a tiny dimple in the leading edge of the wing with some scratches to the paint. "The damage was minor and had no effect on the airworthiness of the aircraft. The aircraft was returned to service the same day." Check out the photos in the TSB report for that one: Aviation Transportation Safety Investigation Report A17Q0162 - Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Do a Google search on "drone hits plane quebec" and you'll see all the hysterical reporting generated by that incident. And yet, now we have an actual documented case of a large commercial drone colliding with a helicopter, causing damage to the main rotor, the tail structure, and even the tail rotor, and the pilot merely felt a vibration. "The helicopter suffered some initial vibration and the pilot completed a precautionary landing on a road without further incident."

Weren't we all led to believe that a "consumer drone" was capable of bringing down an airliner? If not that, well surely a helicopter. It merely has to touch the tail rotor, no? Well, apparently not.

That non-incident over Quebec City generated press reports around the world, and still gets mentioned in the GlobalNews article above. It resulted in knee-jerk drone regulations. Plastic bags over Heathrow, invisible drones over Gatwick, endless reports of almost-catastrophic near-misses (i.e. non-collisions), all generate more media interest and ever more regulations.

Yet here we have an actual documented (non-catastrophic) collision between a police-operated industrial-sized drone and a police-operated helicopter carrying three people, and the incident is buried?!? We're only hearing about it now because four months later it has finally appeared in the CADORS system? That's bizarre.

Zbip,
Don't blame the news media, they're just practicing "art" kind of like politicians do.

At least your Aireon's space-based ADS-B system was well thought out. With all the vast open area you have, it just makes sense.
Our terrestrial system doesn't display traffic (TIS) outside of the big city, in the cockpit without an internet connection. - or on the ground in mountains. We've got some remote area's also. I wonder if our new remote ID could use your satellite based ADS-b system ? It sounds like the system is already in place ?
 
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Zbip,
Don't blame the news media, they're just practicing "art" kind of like politicians do.

At least your Aireon's space-based ADS-B system was well thought out. With all the vast open area you have, it just makes sense.
Our terrestrial system doesn't display traffic (TIS) outside of the big city, in the cockpit without an internet connection. - or on the ground in mountains. We've got some remote area's also. I wonder if our new remote ID could use your satellite based ADS-b system ? It sounds like the system is already in place ?
The inventor of ADS-B was going to be space based, but he has said that what the FAA did to it is nothing like he envisioned...butchered all to heck...
 
Why would the broadcast only be good for a few hundred feet, when the existing models using wifi for control work over a mile or more? And the choice of a wifi protocol was so that cell phones could receive the broadcasts directly, without additional equipment.
We have campaigns in every state to discourage distracted driving with a cell phone in hand. So now we are going to have pilots of manned aircraft using their cell phone to alert them to where a drone is flying in their airspace? I repeat, this is for commercialized drones to take over low altitude airspace for their own gain.
 
We have campaigns in every state to discourage distracted driving with a cell phone in hand. So now we are going to have pilots of manned aircraft using their cell phone to alert them to where a drone is flying in their airspace? I repeat, this is for commercialized drones to take over low altitude airspace for their own gain.

So first you didn't like that aircraft would need new equipment, and now you don't like that they won't. I'm afraid I can't keep up with your shifting positions. And I know what you keep repeating, but it doesn't make it true, especially since you haven't actually made an argument to support it.
 
So first you didn't like that aircraft would need new equipment, and now you don't like that they won't. I'm afraid I can't keep up with your shifting positions. And I know what you keep repeating, but it doesn't make it true, especially since you haven't actually made an argument to support it.
I just don’t see cell phones picking up a WiFi signal with location and altitude data from a sUAS that complies with FCC part 15 rules when you can’t even get a reliable internet connection from your home WiFi 100 to 200 feet from your home.

As far as a pilot using a cell phone for situational awareness of drone traffic, it is no different than a motor vehicle operator using a cell phone while driving. Not safe and not smart.

Your denial of the commercial drone industry taking over is just a 180 degree view of what mine is. You have no more proof of your position than I have of mine. We will just have to agree to disagree.
 
I just don’t see cell phones picking up a WiFi signal with location and altitude data from a sUAS that complies with FCC part 15 rules when you can’t even get a reliable internet connection from your home WiFi 100 to 200 feet from your home.

Then how does the RC control a Mavic Air, for example, at much greater distances? The Mavic Pro, when running in direct wifi mode, was firmware limited to around 300 ft. It's already happening, so speculating that you don't see how it is possible makes no sense.

As far as a pilot using a cell phone for situational awareness of drone traffic, it is no different than a motor vehicle operator using a cell phone while driving. Not safe and not smart.

You haven't flown GA recently then - phones and tablets in EFB mode are commonly to be found mounted on the yoke, windshield or kneeboard. Flying is not like driving.

Your denial of the commercial drone industry taking over is just a 180 degree view of what mine is. You have no more proof of your position than I have of mine. We will just have to agree to disagree.

No - this is not a symmetric argument, even though it's an increasingly popular logical fallacy to try to make it one. It's you making the assertion, without any evidence that I've seen, that the motivation is some kind of takeover of low airspace for commercial gain. You cannot do that and then argue that it's my job to disprove it.
 
I just don’t see cell phones picking up a WiFi signal with location and altitude data from a sUAS that complies with FCC part 15 rules when you can’t even get a reliable internet connection from your home WiFi 100 to 200 feet from your home.

As far as a pilot using a cell phone for situational awareness of drone traffic, it is no different than a motor vehicle operator using a cell phone while driving. Not safe and not smart.

Your denial of the commercial drone industry taking over is just a 180 degree view of what mine is. You have no more proof of your position than I have of mine. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Pilots have been successfully using TCAS for 40 years. Using a EFB is different from texting while driving unless you're behind the wheel of a Tesla with lane assist and adaptive cruise on an open road in between Winnimucca and Gotebo. The caveat would be; the tablet should be installed on a hands free mount and NO texting while flying or driving. I agree that remote ID is an airspace grab.
 
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I agree that remote ID is an airspace grab.

This is what puzzles me - why do you think that? At least superficially, RemoteID is clearly not an airspace grab in that it provides a simple and relatively inexpensive mechanism for recreational and Part 107 pilots to operate in that airspace. And so aside from any other argument, if it is some kind of airspace grab then it's a particularly poor effort.

And looking more broadly, if the density of sUAS traffic of all kinds below 400 ft continues to increase, do you not see a need for some kind of deconfliction system?
 
This is what puzzles me - why do you think that? At least superficially, RemoteID is clearly not an airspace grab in that it provides a simple and relatively inexpensive mechanism for recreational and Part 107 pilots to operate in that airspace. And so aside from any other argument, if it is some kind of airspace grab then it's a particularly poor effort.

And looking more broadly, if the density of sUAS traffic of all kinds below 400 ft continues to increase, do you not see a need for some kind of deconfliction system?
It doesn't even do the job of traffic avoidance...just identifying the sucker that's recreationally flying his quad in his backyard and the FAA enforcement team is your neighbors pitchfork and bon bons. Commercial delivery needs to be able to prevent running into anything...even the notorius mail man biting dog.
 
It doesn't even do the job of traffic avoidance...just identifying the sucker that's recreationally flying his quad in his backyard and the FAA enforcement team is your neighbors pitchfork and bon bons. Commercial delivery needs to be able to prevent running into anything...even the notorius mail man biting dog.

Why doesn't it enable traffic avoidance? It will identify the sUAS position, height, heading and speed to other aircraft (manned and unmanned) and ATC, which is how air traffic is always deconflicted. Are you suggesting that because it sees someone flying in his backyard that it therefore cannot also see more significant traffic - including when your hypothetical recreational guy decides to pop up to 400 ft or higher for a look around?
 
Why doesn't it enable traffic avoidance? It will identify the sUAS position, height, heading and speed to other aircraft (manned and unmanned) and ATC, which is how air traffic is always deconflicted. Are you suggesting that because it sees someone flying in his backyard that it therefore cannot also see more significant traffic - including when your hypothetical recreational guy decides to pop up to 400 ft or higher for a look around?
My impression of Remote ID was that it didn't provide any useful information to the manned aircraft, because it doesn't mix with anything like TCAS or ADS-B. The information may be there if they have some sort of available internet connection, but maybe not the people who might need it.
 
My impression of Remote ID was that it didn't provide any useful information to the manned aircraft, because it doesn't mix with anything like TCAS or ADS-B. The information may be there if they have some sort of available internet connection, but maybe not the people who might need it.

I see. In that case, since you are obviously unfamiliar with the proposal then perhaps it would be good to read up on it before posting about how useless it is.
 
This is what puzzles me - why do you think that? At least superficially, RemoteID is clearly not an airspace grab in that it provides a simple and relatively inexpensive mechanism for recreational and Part 107 pilots to operate in that airspace. And so aside from any other argument, if it is some kind of airspace grab then it's a particularly poor effort.

And looking more broadly, if the density of sUAS traffic of all kinds below 400 ft continues to increase, do you not see a need for some kind of deconfliction system?
I agree, we've got a real need for a de-confliction system, I didn't see a defined method for collision avoidance in the NPRM that would enhance safety, and yes, I read the whole proposal. This makes it an airspace grab, they could've allowed non-remote ID outside the big city away from commercial drones, instead they restricted us, to really small AMA fields where drones and model airplanes don't mix, I'm a AMA member and fly fixed wing at a local flying club.

Remote ID requires transmissions and reception that are not possible in remote areas without satellite repeaters, this was addressed in the proposal by saying; "you can't fly, if you don't have reception". I'm a active FCC licensed Ham operator.

The average person hates drones because of derogatory public opinion, they invade privacy by spying, kill enemy combatants, are dangerous - colliding with aircraft, are flown by juvenile delinquents and they're a big unknown. I think, FAA decision making employees hold this same opinion. I retired from civil service in ATC.
 
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I agree, we've got a real need for a de-confliction system, I didn't see a defined method for collision avoidance in the NPRM that would enhance safety, and yes, I read the whole proposal. This makes it an airspace grab, they could've allowed non-remote ID outside the big city away from commercial drones, instead they restricted us, to really small AMA fields where drones and model airplanes don't mix, I'm a AMA member and fly fixed wing at a local flying club.

Remote ID requires transmissions and reception that are not possible in remote areas without satellite repeaters, this was addressed in the proposal by saying; "you can't fly, if you don't have reception". I'm a active FCC licensed Ham operator.

The average person hates drones because of derogatory public opinion, they invade privacy by spying, kill enemy combatants, are dangerous - colliding with aircraft, are flown by juvenile delinquents and they're a big unknown. I think, FAA decision making employees hold this same opinion. I retired from civil service in ATC.

No - if you really read the NPRM then you misunderstood one of its most basic elements. There is no requirement for satellite repeaters - that is covered by the redundancy of the USS and broadcast options. In my view the FAA has gone to considerable lengths to try to integrate sUAS or all types into the NAS, and all the FAA departments that I've dealt with on sUAS issues have been extremely helpful.
 
I agree, we've got a real need for a de-confliction system, I didn't see a defined method for collision avoidance in the NPRM that would enhance safety, and yes, I read the whole proposal. This makes it an airspace grab, they could've allowed non-remote ID outside the big city away from commercial drones, instead they restricted us, to really small AMA fields where drones and model airplanes don't mix, I'm a AMA member and fly fixed wing at a local flying club.

Remote ID requires transmissions and reception that are not possible in remote areas without satellite repeaters, this was addressed in the proposal by saying; "you can't fly, if you don't have reception". I'm a active FCC licensed Ham operator.

The average person hates drones because of derogatory public opinion, they invade privacy by spying, kill enemy combatants, are dangerous - colliding with aircraft, are flown by juvenile delinquents and they're a big unknown. I think, FAA decision making employees hold this same opinion. I retired from civil service in ATC.
Question: Did FAA dissolve what used to be Section 336 (the modeller guys) and now put them under part 107 along with the drones/quads?
 
No - if you really read the NPRM then you misunderstood one of its most basic elements. There is no requirement for satellite repeaters - that is covered by the redundancy of the USS and broadcast options. In my view the FAA has gone to considerable lengths to try to integrate sUAS or all types into the NAS, and all the FAA departments that I've dealt with on sUAS issues have been extremely helpful.
The consortium that pushed the proposal to FAA is all about selling a profitable radio system. FAA is trying to be helpful by agreeing with the people who are pushing the proposal. I'm saying the radio system won't work in remote areas without satellite repeaters. And that's not going to happen. The first step in de-confliction is identification but they aren't going far enough with this proposal.
 
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