These videos have very good composition and your flying is smooth. In my opinion adding motion blur would not of added to the quality of the video. Keep in mind that the motion blur is the only reason for the ND filter. These videos do not show any of that strobe effect of high speed shutters. In my opinion, I say, do not make flying and filming any more complicated than it already is by worrying about filters. Keep up the good work that you are already doing, and stay focused on looking for great subjects to film and great composition.
Single ND filter setup - question!
- Thread starter quirom
- Start date
thank you for your kind words! I am still a newbie, having a lot to learn. Happy flying!
Like kj...54 said above, those are great videos composition wise and I don't think a ND filter would have made much of a difference in two of them. In the second one, perhaps it would have made the motions of the football players and the ball a little smoother. The first and third are a little over exposed in my opinion; and more so when the camera faces the sun in the first one - but that is always a hard one to get right. What I also see in all three videos is a very flat colour profile and you can certainly improve that in post. But before worrying about that, learn to get your exposure right. Always keep an eye on the histogram and the ev value and adjust the shutter speed as needed so that the ev value is between -0.3 and +0.3 and the histogram peaks at the centere. There is a lot of great posts in this forum on this matter so look around, you will learn a great deal. Here is one post I found very helpful when I was also starting out not that long ago.
Adjusting EV
If I am up in the air and my EV is far away from 0, do I change my shutter? If I am filming 30 fps I keep it on 1/60, but of course sometimes I fly up and realize I have the wrong filter on. How far can I change my shutter to get this EV I desire and at what EV value should I consider changing...
mavicpilots.com
Bottom line, you don't need a ND filter to get your exposure right.
thank you, your answer is very detailed. The link you sent is also very helpful too! that explained most of my questions.Like kj...54 said above, those are great videos composition wise and I don't think a ND filter would have made much of a difference in two of them. In the second one, perhaps it would have made the motions of the football players and the ball a little smoother. The first and third are a little over exposed in my opinion; and more so when the camera faces the sun in the first one - but that is always a hard one to get right. What I also see in all three videos is a very flat colour profile and you can certainly improve that in post. But before worrying about that, learn to get your exposure right. Always keep an eye on the histogram and the ev value and adjust the shutter speed as needed so that the ev value is between -0.3 and +0.3 and the histogram peaks at the centere. There is a lot of great posts in this forum on this matter so look around, you will learn a great deal. Here is one post I found very helpful when I was also starting out not that long ago.
Adjusting EV
If I am up in the air and my EV is far away from 0, do I change my shutter? If I am filming 30 fps I keep it on 1/60, but of course sometimes I fly up and realize I have the wrong filter on. How far can I change my shutter to get this EV I desire and at what EV value should I consider changing...
Bottom line, you don't need a ND filter to get your exposure right.
Nakita Mosquita
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I purchased these with good results...not as expensive as Polar Pro.
K&F Concept DJI Mavic Air Filters Accessories, 5 Pack ND4 ND8 ND16 UV CPL with Waterproof and Made of Ultra High Definition Glass and Aluminum Thread Frame for Outstanding Clarity and Sharpness : Amazon.ca: Electronics
K&F Concept DJI Mavic Air Filters Accessories, 5 Pack ND4 ND8 ND16 UV CPL with Waterproof and Made of Ultra High Definition Glass and Aluminum Thread Frame for Outstanding Clarity and Sharpness : Amazon.ca: Electronics
www.amazon.ca
Mossiback
Well-Known Member
You will find that a shutter speed that fast will make your video appear "choppy", especially while panning. The basic rule is the shutter speed should be 2x the frame rate, 24 fps / 1/50s. That is why ND filters are needed to induce a little motion blur to make the video look smoother.
I know, but the other guy said that when filming 24 fps, if you can't do it at 1/50s, then whatever shutter speed will be the same (1/100s or 1/1600s does not matter). That is interesting for me.
Just to be clear, I did not mean that there is no difference between 1/100 or 1/1600, but either setting will not have proper motion blur, only 1/50 will give you the proper motion blur. The more important question you need to ask yourself is, Do you feel the need to have motion blur in your videos or are you satisfied with using the camera settings without a ND filter to create your videos? Adding an ND filter to your flights only is adding to the complexity and going to slow you down as far as setup, and take off, for usually little payback. If you are just starting out, keep it as simple as possible until you have much more experience with all the basic concepts of flight and photography.
I understand the annoying filter setup. I don't want to remove / put on the proper filter for each flight neither. After all, it was my question at the beginning: Is it the best to use just a single filter? Let's say ND16, I think it should reduce the choppy shots (24 fps 1/1600s) during sunny days, even when the motion blur is not fully obtained (24fps 1/100s for example).
I think the question you raise is very interesting and one I had also asked a while back. If you are shooting at 24fps, you want your shutter speed to be double that; i.e. 1/50s is where you want it to be. But say you have an ND16 filter on but you find that it is over exposing your image. Now the ideal solution for this situation would be to take off the ND16 filter and fit an ND32 and see if that blocks enough light to allow you to shoot at your desired fps and shutter speed. BUT, what if you instead increase your shutter speed? So you adjust your shutter speed to 1/100s. You continue increasing your shutter speed to 1/200, 1/400 .... and so on till your image is no longer overexposed. Now, in this scenario, at what shutter speed does the desired motion blur (the very reason you are using an ND filter) disappear from your video? Like I said, also my question and I hope someone who is knowledgeable drops by and chimes in.
I have also wondered if increasing the frame rate would be a solution when the image is slightly over exposed. For example, instead of shooting at 24 or 30 fps, what if you shoot at 60fps? That would allow you to increase your shutter speed to 1/120 while still following the 180 rule? Would appreciate answers from the experts here.
You describe this much better than I did. I hope people can share experiences. If it is true (that you can double ISO and/or double shutter speed without affecting the quality of the video too much), then a full set of filter is not worth it, at least for me. As kjcbid54 mentioned above, choosing proper filter makes an already-hard-job harder.
For the fps increase, this is also possible. But it would go with some disadvantages, such as reducing resolution (my MPP cant do 2.7k 60fps). So you are right we can do 1080 60 fps 1/120s ND16 instead of 2.7k 30fps 1/60s ND32, if you are willing to record in 1080.
Mossiback
Well-Known Member
Using ND filters is really not this big a hassle. General rules:
ND4 - Sunrise/set or low light
ND8 - Cloudy day
ND16 - Sunny day
ND32 or 64 - Bright sun on snow /sand
This works well for my MP. I just start my fight with the filter that suits the conditions and don't give it another thought.
ND4 - Sunrise/set or low light
ND8 - Cloudy day
ND16 - Sunny day
ND32 or 64 - Bright sun on snow /sand
This works well for my MP. I just start my fight with the filter that suits the conditions and don't give it another thought.
In manual setting what do you find your ISO to be? I try to shoot for 100 but half the time the video is just slightly too dark
I'm assuming that is a typo.
If the shutter spend is not twice frame rate, and you can't get it there using aperture or ISO, then you do need an ND.
johnmeyer
Well-Known Member
There are two completely separate things being discussed: frame rate, and shutter speed.
Low frame rates like 24 fps produce "judder" which shows up as annoying double-images when the camera pans horizontally.
High shutter speeds produce a different sort of annoying artifact, although sometimes the same language is used to describe it as is used to describe what happens when filming at frame rates that are lower than the persistence of vision threshhold. The shutter speed artifacts are more subtle and generally not as annoying as those produced by the low 24 fps frame rate. You don't usually notice them when the camera pans, but instead they become more prominent when some object moves quickly through the frame, such as you seen during most sports.
Most people can acclimate to watching video taken at high shutter speeds, but it is pretty difficult to get used to watching the judder from low frame rates.
However, if the camera doesn't move, low frame rates can be quite watchable. Here is some ancient movie film I transferred and restored. It is from 1928 and was taken at about 12 fps with a hand-cranked camera.
You can eliminate judder by synthesizing additional frames, using motion estimation software. If used with motion stabilization, the result can be quite smooth, although the process does introduce artifacts that can, under certain circumstances, be quite annoying.
Here is some 16 fps film that I modified to 30 fps:
Low frame rates like 24 fps produce "judder" which shows up as annoying double-images when the camera pans horizontally.
High shutter speeds produce a different sort of annoying artifact, although sometimes the same language is used to describe it as is used to describe what happens when filming at frame rates that are lower than the persistence of vision threshhold. The shutter speed artifacts are more subtle and generally not as annoying as those produced by the low 24 fps frame rate. You don't usually notice them when the camera pans, but instead they become more prominent when some object moves quickly through the frame, such as you seen during most sports.
Most people can acclimate to watching video taken at high shutter speeds, but it is pretty difficult to get used to watching the judder from low frame rates.
However, if the camera doesn't move, low frame rates can be quite watchable. Here is some ancient movie film I transferred and restored. It is from 1928 and was taken at about 12 fps with a hand-cranked camera.
You can eliminate judder by synthesizing additional frames, using motion estimation software. If used with motion stabilization, the result can be quite smooth, although the process does introduce artifacts that can, under certain circumstances, be quite annoying.
Here is some 16 fps film that I modified to 30 fps:
Mossiback
Well-Known Member
I try to keep it at 100. You can lighten up a dark video but it is more difficult to fix a washed-out video.
Mossiback
Well-Known Member
Unless your light conditions do not change it can be difficult to have only one filter, but if you only get one get a ND16. It is easier to correct a dark image than a blown-out image.
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It is a compromise for sure but how much of a compromise is the question I initially had. I suppose this doesn't make sense to many since, as you rightly pointed out earlier in this thread, it is as simple as getting three or four ND filters and using the one that you need depending on the time of day or the scene. I have also came to the same realization. I realized ND filters are simply an accessory tool that I may not need at all - until that one time when I need one type or another. So why not get a few and keep them around just in case? And I asked myself, which filters am I most likely to need/want. I got an ND16 and an ND32 for the motion blur effect, a CPL for over water and foliage footage, and an ND1000 for long exposure stills.
However, putting filters on and taking them off is a bit of a hassle and I have often wondered if in the process I am putting the gimbal under too much stress. It is in this sense that I think a single ND filter setup could be beneficial if it doesn't come at the cost of compromising the desired motion blur/"cinematic effect". But, and I am going in circles here, what effect you want is variable depending on scene, subject, and purpose of the video. So, you are unlikely to satisfy this varying need with just one filter. Hence the conclusion I came too, get the filters you need/want and use them when you need/want that particular effect. It is all rather simple, as you, Mossiback, put it!
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