Suffolk farm drone in near-miss with Tornado jet

[DerekJG]

Who wants to put money on who's going to get the blame for this one?
Farm drone in near-miss with Tornado jet
Drone at 100 metres, RAF at 120 metres ... Which one is doing it wrong??

We set our max height at 400ft above take off. How do military aircraft define their height - not above take off I imagine. Probably above sea level plus they will know height above current ground. So how do we reconcile these measurements. If we take off at the top of a hill we could easily be at the hight (legitimately) of a military jet.

 

[sar104]

We set our max height at 400ft above take off. How do military aircraft define their height - not above take off I imagine. Probably above sea level plus they will know height above current ground. So how do we reconcile these measurements. If we take off at the top of a hill we could easily be at the hight (legitimately) of a military jet.

When they are flying at low level they work on altitude AGL, for obvious reasons; otherwise they might hit that hill.

 

[FoxhallGH]

We set our max height at 400ft above take off. How do military aircraft define their height - not above take off I imagine. Probably above sea level plus they will know height above current ground. So how do we reconcile these measurements. If we take off at the top of a hill we could easily be at the hight (legitimately) of a military jet.

If you are talking about flying drones in the UK @DerekJG - then that's not quite correct ... The CAA reg's say that you [your Drone] fly to a max. of 400 ft above the surface of the earth. That means that if you launch your drone from a hilltop that stands 200 ft above a valley floor, you can be 400 ft above your take-off point, but, if you move out into the valley, you'd have to drop to 200 ft above your take-off point to be flying 400 ft above the valley floor. Civil and Military aircraft then take this the other way and clear your hilltop by 500 ft, and the valley floor by 500 ft also, so would pass by you at 300 ft above your hilltop viewpoint, while flying down that valley.
We have no way of measuring that instantaneous height above ground with our drones, so you do have to be vary careful in managing altitude when flying out from hills or mountainsides!

 

[ascension]

We set our max height at 400ft above take off. How do military aircraft define their height - not above take off I imagine. Probably above sea level plus they will know height above current ground. So how do we reconcile these measurements. If we take off at the top of a hill we could easily be at the hight (legitimately) of a military jet.

To answer your question, when flying low level, military airplanes use radar altimeter, which provides instantaneous altitude above ground.
Digitally displayed on a heads up display.

 

[787steve]

I have flown hundreds of military VR route operations. I believe the 107 test says these are low level routes where the military aircraft may be in excess of 250 kts. I never flew one at less than 360 knots, even as a student. The minimum altitudes vary, but we were also seldom above 400'AGL. And if a military jet is coming right at you at high speed, you may well not have sufficient time to react, depending on wind and terrain.
Check for military training routes before you fly. If you live near one, you probably already know about your local routes. If you are flying in unfamiliar territory, check the sectionals.
And if you don't think they can come up on you faster than you can react, check this video.

.

And , yes, it is a rush. And I am glad when I was doing this I didn't have to think about drones.

Wishing a Safe and Happy New Year to all.

 

[JDawg]

I have flown hundreds of military VR route operations. I believe the 107 test says these are low level routes where the military aircraft may be in excess of 250 kts. I never flew one at less than 360 knots, even as a student. The minimum altitudes vary, but we were also seldom above 400'AGL. And if a military jet is coming right at you at high speed, you may well not have sufficient time to react, depending on wind and terrain.
Check for military training routes before you fly. If you live near one, you probably already know about your local routes. If you are flying in unfamiliar territory, check the sectionals.
And if you don't think they can come up on you faster than you can react, check this video.

.

And , yes, it is a rush. And I am glad when I was doing this I didn't have to think about drones.

Wishing a Safe and Happy New Year to all.

I have been to the Abbotsford Airshow and they are always screwing with you with flyovers, you never know where they are coming from, very fun.

 

[cayman5522]

Who wants to put money on who's going to get the blame for this one?
Farm drone in near-miss with Tornado jet
Drone at 100 metres, RAF at 120 metres ... Which one is doing it wrong??

The English are really showing the world how stupid they are on a regular basis.

 

[dannybgoode]

The English are really showing the world how stupid they are on a regular basis.

Gatwick yes. Can’t see what the drone pilot did wrong in this particular case. We do not have dedicated military training airspace so the drone pilot was flying (as far as we can tell) completely within the law.

 

[DavidRansier]

This is a great case for having a small ADS-B receiver that integrates with the controller. I would love that!

 

[sar104]

This is a great case for having a small ADS-B receiver that integrates with the controller. I would love that!

That's not going to help with military aircraft though.

 

[FoxhallGH]

The English are really showing the world how stupid they are on a regular basis.

Lot of stupid things going on all round the world @cayman5522 - we don't have the monopoly on stupidity my friend!

 

[JDawg]

The English are really showing the world how stupid they are on a regular basis.

What country are you from? Surely not the US?

 

[zocalo]

I don't agree you have adequate time. Rough example: Let's say you hear the jet when it is 2 miles away. You have about 15 seconds to figure out what you are hearing and react to it. My Mavic 2 descends about 9 feet per second. I am not for sure getting out of the way.

That's not quite how it works - it's even worse than that. Sound propogates from the aircraft at Mach1 but, near as makes no odds, the aircraft was also heading straight towards the drone and its operator and that reduces the reaction time considerably. (This was clearly a responsible drone pilot with a PfCO since they were flying commercially and reported the incident, so distance between drone and pilot was almost certainly less than the legal max of 500m.)

According to the report (PDF), the aircraft was doing 450kts on a heading of 340, the drone 16kts at 180, hence pretty much head-on to both drone and its pilot, other than any horizontal separation. Mach1 is ~666kts, so the sound of the aircraft would actually have been approaching the drone operator only ~200 knots faster than the actual aircraft. That basically cuts the available response time from hearing the aircraft to it being overhead to less than one third of the implied distance given by Mach1.

AFAICT, the only thing the drone pilot could realistically have done any better here was file a NOTAM.

 

[ScubaBob]

I would think that low altitude training missions are restricted to military airspace, especially at that speed and altitude.

I normally see police helicopters flying at that altitude but I have never seen a military or civilian jet flying that low over non-military airspace except during airshows .

I have been in Valley of the Gods in Utah and B-1s and others have done low altitude training missions over there and you could also see the pilot they were so low.

 

[zocalo]

In this case, the BBC article is saying that the RAF fighter-jet was 10 miles from it's airbase.

No, it's saying that they were 10 miles from Wattisham airfield, which isn't quite the same thing. Neither the BBC nor the Airprox says where the Tornados were from, but they appear to have just been flying past the airfield at the time of the incident.

According to Wikipedia, Wattisham is currently operated by the Army Air Corps and, while the RAF may have some helicopters there, they definitely do not have any Tornados based there.

 

[zocalo]

I have been in Valley of the Gods in Utah and B-1s and others have done low altitude training missions over there and you could also see the pilot they were so low.

RAF Valley on Anglesey is the UK's main fast attack jet training school. Training missions from there seem to sortie out over the Lake District and Snowdonia National Parks for some low level training, and it's not at all uncommon to be out in the hills and see a single/twin seat jet pass down the valley below you, or come overhead at well under 400ft AGL.

Excellent for getting those "looking down into the cockpit" shots, but also worth keeping in mind if you're in either area with a drone...

 

[Ren57]

Excellent for getting those "looking down into the cockpit" shots, but also worth keeping in mind if you're in either area with a drone...

Indeed. You don't want to be ever flying a drone here.

Just 11 miles from Machynlleth in Wales.

 

[covpack]

Does the DJI app warn you when you enter military routes?
In the US the maps are marked were military routes are used along with altitudes. So I am thinking that this is one of those routes. I am retired military and I remember several times (rare) military aircraft striking power lines when they deviated off course or went too low. Rare now, as most modern military aircraft have navigation systems that verbally warn the pilot about obstructions, such as tower and power lines. Where I live the military has a 100 yard corridor of class B airspace that widens as it gets nearer to the military base. When I fly in the area, it warns me when just before I enter that Class B space. Interesting note its that it does not show it on the FAA B4fly, airmap or the DJKI app when not flying. It only shows up on the DJI app as you are flying.

 

[briwy]

Military aircraft in the UK can basically fly where and when and as low as they want. We live on a hillside about 550ft AMSL and regularly get military aircraft flying just about level with the house as they follow the river valley.
If you ring this number 0800 515544 that will connect you to the Low Flying Booking Cell at the RAF Safety Centre. Tell them where and when you are proposing to fly and they will be able to tell you if there are any military flights planned in the area. Also, really strangely they will endeavour to reroute if possible to avoid your plans.
Of course, you will still have to watch out for police, air ambulance etc and other drone users.

 

[raymo]

I have flown hundreds of military VR route operations. I believe the 107 test says these are low level routes where the military aircraft may be in excess of 250 kts. I never flew one at less than 360 knots, even as a student. The minimum altitudes vary, but we were also seldom above 400'AGL. And if a military jet is coming right at you at high speed, you may well not have sufficient time to react, depending on wind and terrain.
Check for military training routes before you fly. If you live near one, you probably already know about your local routes. If you are flying in unfamiliar territory, check the sectionals.
And if you don't think they can come up on you faster than you can react, check this video.

.

And , yes, it is a rush. And I am glad when I was doing this I didn't have to think about drones.

Wishing a Safe and Happy New Year to all.

Seeing low flying military aircraft is a rush to say the least. It is scary to understand that if you are around low-flying aircraft, you have little if any warning that something is coming, and your UAV may be in its way if you have not heard it. I am reminded that as a young lad, I observed a U.S. B-52 up close and personal as it did a simulated bombing run on our farm. This was not uncommon practice in those days. It was southern Alberta, early 60s as I recall. I happened to see it coming, but could not hear it until it was virtually over me and then once past the farm, full power on climb-out. Most impressive! I've been told it never happened, but I know what I saw, and other farmers reported the same thing. We thought it was great! Do it again, PLEASE! We loved watching the dogfights high above our part of the country. Nowadays, people are so paranoid, anything like this would be reported and the military would be taken to task.

In this case, it appears the UAV pilot was operating legally, and the military aircraft was out doing its thing.

To close, in the lead-up to WW II, in southern Alberta, Harvard (AT-6 Texans) training flights used to "buzz" farmers in their fields. It was practice time for the "train-busters". Farmers thought nothing of it. For the military pilots, it was practice that ultimately led to real-world exercise that helped to win the war.

Lots of good comments and good advice here. Be alert and fly safely as best each of us can.