Suffolk farm drone in near-miss with Tornado jet

[FoxhallGH]

Who wants to put money on who's going to get the blame for this one?
Farm drone in near-miss with Tornado jet
Drone at 100 metres, RAF at 120 metres ... Which one is doing it wrong??

 

[Former Member]

Jet was 450 knots at 400'. Wonder why he was flying so low in formation?

 

[sar104]

I'm not sure about UK aviation law on altitude minimums, especially for military aircraft in training, but it's obviously somewhat risky flying at 120 m, 10 miles from the field. Sounds like the drone was being operated fully within the law and would have had little chance to detect and avoid an incoming low-level flight of that kind.

 

[ascension]

Jet was 450 knots at 400'. Wonder why he was flying so low in formation?

That's how it's done.
Very rarely to tactical jets operate alone, and 400' isn't really low for a low altitude training mission.

 

[Former Member]

That's how it's done.
Very rarely to tactical jets operate alone, and 400' isn't really low for a low altitude training mission.

I would think that low altitude training missions are restricted to military airspace, especially at that speed and altitude.

I normally see police helicopters flying at that altitude but I have never seen a military or civilian jet flying that low over non-military airspace except during airshows .

 

[sar104]

I would think that low altitude training missions are restricted to military airspace, especially at that speed and altitude.

I normally see police helicopters flying at that altitude but I have never seen a military or civilian jet flying that low over non-military airspace except during airshows .

It's common in the UK - there is very little military airspace there. It's also common in parts of the US. We often get low altitude training flights here in regular Class G airspace.

 

[Former Member]

The article doesnt mention whether or not the drone operator had ever seen this type of activity over his property before. If I had jets screaming over my property, even on an occasional basis, I would call the nearest military base and ask if they were conducting flight operations or exercises that day in my area, or at least keep my altitude down to 200' or less.

 

[ascension]

I would think that low altitude training missions are restricted to military airspace, especially at that speed and altitude.

I normally see police helicopters flying at that altitude but I have never seen a military or civilian jet flying that low over non-military airspace except during airshows .

It isn't made clear that this is not a military operating area, or a low level training route.
Those routes are common in the US and depicted on sectional charts.

The bottom line is always the same.
They could have both been operating within constraints, but the drone operator has to yield right of way and exit the airspace to prevent a conflict.

 

[JDawg]

It isn't made clear that this is not a military operating area, or a low level training route.
Those routes are common in the US and depicted on sectional charts.

The bottom line is always the same.
They could have both been operating within constraints, but the drone operator has to yield right of way and exit the airspace to prevent a conflict.

Jets flying that low and fast the drone has no chance to "exit the airspace". The slowest thing drones do is descend.

 

[ascension]

Jets flying that low and fast the drone has no chance to "exit the airspace". The slowest thing drones do is descend.

Fully disagree.

Flying subsonic provides adequate aural warning to descend in time to avoid. .

In the US, it doesn't matter anyway. The obligation, again, is for the drone to get away from a collision.
Simply have to know what airspace you're operating in.

 

[dylanthecat]

Fully disagree.

Flying subsonic provides adequate aural warning to descend in time to avoid. .

In the US, it doesn't matter anyway. The obligation, again, is for the drone to get away from a collision.
Simply have to know what airspace you're operating in.

I don't agree you have adequate time. Rough example: Let's say you hear the jet when it is 2 miles away. You have about 15 seconds to figure out what you are hearing and react to it. My Mavic 2 descends about 9 feet per second. I am not for sure getting out of the way.

 

[sar104]

I don't agree you have adequate time. Rough example: Let's say you hear the jet when it is 2 miles away. You have about 15 seconds to figure out what you are hearing and react to it. My Mavic 2 descends about 9 feet per second. I am not for sure getting out of the way.

I agree - and I'm not sure that you are going to hear it at two miles coming towards you.

 

[ascension]

I don't agree you have adequate time. Rough example: Let's say you hear the jet when it is 2 miles away. You have about 15 seconds to figure out what you are hearing and react to it. My Mavic 2 descends about 9 feet per second. I am not for sure getting out of the way.

That's fine, but if you feel that way, stay away from any airspace where that might happen, because the law is quite clear.
It is always the responsibility of the drone operator to allow right of way.
You can either get the law changed or avoid flying in airspace that might allow such an encounter.

 

[JDawg]

I have asked before and I don't think I have received an answer, why do the drones descend so slow?

 

[sar104]

I have asked before and I don't think I have received an answer, why do the drones descend so slow?

To avoid VRS instabilities.

 

[dylanthecat]

I have asked before and I don't think I have received an answer, why do the drones descend so slow?

My guess would be to make sure the bird can still generate a decent amount of lift on the way down so it can maintain stability.

 

[Ren57]

Who wants to put money on who's going to get the blame for this one?
Farm drone in near-miss with Tornado jet
Drone at 100 metres, RAF at 120 metres ... Which one is doing it wrong??

This is available for military low flying. Any drone pilot performing commercial operations in the UK should check this timetable as a matter of course. Military low flying: RAF operational low flying training timetable
Having said that, the article doesn't make it very clear where exactly the near miss took place but it appears to me that although there is a RAF airbase in the vicinity, it doesn't appear to be a military low flying area. So the jets should only ever be at that altitude in that area during take off and landing. Sounds a a bit like six of one and half a dozen of the other as who may have been at fault. But a jet flying that low at that speed, by the time you've heard it, it's gonna be on you, it makes no difference if the drone pilot is obliged to give way or not, they'd need the reactions of a mongoose! Even if the drone pilot just hit the engine kill switch, it'd probably be too late.Valid point by air command though, even though the drone pilot didn't need to, it would have been a nice courtesy to give the base a quick call and tell them about the drone operation. That courtesy call would have avoided all this from happening.

 

[Lapeer20m]

There are a couple questions about this particular topic on faa part 107 exam (sample test?)

Basically the question asks what the gray line on the chart labeled xxxx may indicate and i believe the correct answer is that it is a military training route and remote pilots should recognize that aircraft may be flying fast and low in this area.

I don’t know if the incident in question took place over a military training route....but it is a good reminder to all of us to look at a chart before conducting a flight.

 

[Former Member]

This is not the first nor will it be the last incidence of "near misses" between drones and other flying objects, where no fault is assignable. There are even problems with near misses between full scale aircraft, and I have witnessed a few of them personally. Air Traffic Control has tried to kill me a few times in my life by routing me either into a head-on with another aircraft, or cleared for final on the same runway as another aircraft without adequate separation.

In this case, if the drone operator was flying legally, had never seen low flying aircraft around his area before, and was over his property, both the jet pilot and the drone pilot were lucky. Nothing could have been done to avert an accident.

In my own neck of the woods, after flying at the same park for years, I am fully aware that there aircraft flying at or below 400' and as soon as I hear anything that sounds like an aircraft, I immediately lower my drone to just above treeline until the aircraft has cleared the area. Its not a matter of who is right or wrong, it becomes a matter of safety, and manned aircraft win every time. We have police helicopters, news helicopters, an advertising banner-tower, and they all fly in my legal airspace. They are slow, so I can get out of their way.

 

[FoxhallGH]

This is available for military low flying. Any drone pilot performing commercial operations in the UK should check this timetable as a matter of course. Military low flying: RAF operational low flying training timetable
Having said that, the article doesn't make it very clear where exactly the near miss took place but it appears to me that although there is a RAF airbase in the vicinity, it doesn't appear to be a military low flying area. So the jets should only ever be at that altitude in that area during take off and landing. Sounds a a bit like six of one and half a dozen of the other as who may have been at fault. But a jet flying that low at that speed, by the time you've heard it, it's gonna be on you, it makes no difference if the drone pilot is obliged to give way or not, they'd need the reactions of a mongoose! Even if the drone pilot just hit the engine kill switch, it'd probably be too late.Valid point by air command though, even though the drone pilot didn't need to, it would have been a nice courtesy to give the base a quick call and tell them about the drone operation. That courtesy call would have avoided all this from happening.

In this case, the BBC article is saying that the RAF fighter-jet was 10 miles from it's airbase. It does sound like something different was going on, as at that distance, I'd expect them to be setting up on the glide-slope for landing - which (my trig' is a bit rusty), should put the jet at an altitude of around half a mile (approx 800 metres) - if it was on extended centre-line. If the farm was on a low flying route then you'd also expect the Farmer to know that it was a regular occurrence to have fast-movers just over the hedges. After all, Farmers do spend a lot of time out of doors! ...
I posted this article because it quietly pointed a finger of blame at NOBODY - yet the drone was in the right. However, a whole arm of blame comes out when a drone is in the wrong place.