U.S. Appeals Court Upholds FAA Remote ID Rules

[JimCunn]

"Are all (or any) other types of aircraft or users of Federal Airspace required to at all times to squawk as much information, even in class G airspace?".

There are some exclusions. Certified aircraft that were originally manufactured non-electric are grandfathered so long as they have never had an engine driven generator or alternator retrofitted.

 

[Chip]

There are some exclusions.

Is not all of Class G airspace in the country excluded from airplane ADS-B requirement? In stark contrast to Remote ID regulation for 250 +gram drones?

 

[JimCunn]

Well, sort uv - But....
"(f) Except as prohibited in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -
(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or
(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions"

If ya got it, ya gotta run it. And if your aircraft was manufactured with an engine driven electrical system you gotta have it. The exception is grandfathered aircraft. For example though my home airport is inside the Memphis Mode C Veil, my J3 is not required to have it installed.

 

[Chip]

Well, sort uv - But....
"(f) Except as prohibited in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -
(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or
(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions"

If ya got it, ya gotta run it. And if your aircraft was manufactured with an engine driven electrical system you gotta have it. The exception is grandfathered aircraft. For example though my home airport is inside the Memphis Mode C Veil, my J3 is not required to have it installed.

Thanks, thats an important clarification. I think some of the comments published in Federal Register may be off on this point. Imagine that! I guess my next question would be about how many planes in US are grandfathered under that reg and how much the module costs to retrofit or how much it adds to cost of new plane?

 

[JimCunn]

You got me. I dunno. About 19,000 J3s were built; 5500 of them are still flying. Piper also built a number of other non-electric models. The same is true for Taylorcraft, Aeronca, and various others. So quite a few remain. Two of my four planes are grandfathered. My wild guess would be maybe 40-50,000 total are grandfathered. But don't hold me to that.

"and how much the module costs to retrofit"

It's not that simple. Most of these planes run small Continental engines that have no provision for mounting an engine driven electrical system (A65-8, A75-8, A80-8, C75-8, C85-8, C90-8, and others). So before mounting the ADSB module you have to swap out the engine to one that is approved for the airplane and does provide for mounting a generator (C85-12, etc). And since the mags for a -8 and -12 turn in opposite directions, you have to swap them out too. And the tach turns opposite as well. So replace the tach. And while you're at it, you have to find an approved tach cable with reverse twist. I could go on, but I expect you get the picture. Cost of the module is the least of it. Oh, and if you retrofit a generator or alternator, it permanently devalues the plane by about $5,000-$10,000 even if you later remove the electrical system. In some cases it means that gross weight limitations are such that the plane can no longer carry a passenger. Do you really want to do those things to your plane?

 

[QuaiOui]

While I agree... have you browsed Karen videos on YouTube? There's one where a guy purposely trolls parking lots looking for people that don't put their karts in the return area and slaps magnetic stickers on their cars. Only takes one of these type people to start trolling drone pilots and it gets ugly.

Difficult to.put magnets on a flying drone..
..

 

[Dpixtion]

Overall I am perfectly fine with the remote ID for drones however I think it should only be available to the FAA, local air traffic control i.e. the nearest control tower, and law enforcement the average person does not need to know where I’m at.
To me this would go on the same lines as me being able to track my neighbors car and knowing where they are at at all times I know that’s not an apples to apples comparison but it’s a granny Smith to golden delicious apples comparison they’re both green but taste different…..

 

[Donnie Frank]

You are correct, sir. I just wanted to shine light on the fact that its really not something to be afraid of...You mentioned one single person in a country that houses 329.5 million people. Your odds might have been better buying that lotto ticket last night... You are correct in being proactive but i don't think Karens are a legit reason to be against a law that does NOTHING except keep people safe from MORONS.

I highly disagree. All it takes is one psycho out of his mind with rage, completely unreasonable, technically savvy to reign his wrath of terror on some guy just trying to make a living or enjoy his new hobby. To assert that these people don't exist or that maybe there are just a few of them is a pretty weak argument. We know the psychos who want to shoot drones down out of the sky exist. We know the angst toward our drone hobby/profession exists. All that is missing is a public tracker to our exact location.

NO THANX. I'll be hacking around that just like I did the GeoFencing.

D

 

[Sparc343]

Overall I am perfectly fine with the remote ID for drones however I think it should only be available to the FAA, local air traffic control i.e. the nearest control tower, and law enforcement the average person does not need to know where I’m at.
To me this would go on the same lines as me being able to track my neighbors car and knowing where they are at at all times I know that’s not an apples to apples comparison but it’s a granny Smith to golden delicious apples comparison they’re both green but taste different…..

No I think you're completely correct. It may not be directly "apples to apples" but I'd put this remote ID crap akin to every civilian out there being able to "run tags" of any car they see!

We do NOT give average citizens these capabilities for a REASON! So why on earth would we for this (UAS)!?

The ONLY way I'll "support" and "comply" with RID is if it's basically like a motor vehicle tag/plate. That's the ONLY information it should Publicly broadcast! IMHO

 

[Sparc343]

I highly disagree. All it takes is one psycho out of his mind with rage, completely unreasonable, technically savvy to reign his wrath of terror on some guy just trying to make a living or enjoy his new hobby. To assert that these people don't exist or that maybe there are just a few of them is a pretty weak argument. We know the psychos who want to shoot drones down out of the sky exist. We know the angst toward our drone hobby/profession exists. All that is missing is a public tracker to our exact location.

NO THANX. I'll be hacking around that just like I did the GeoFencing.

D

I agree, people are WHACK now a days! And as a "drone pilot", from what I understand, you'll only ever have one of two possible interactions: the positive kind where the person wants to know more (where can you get one, how long you been flying, what are the rules, etc?) Or the kind, well, Karen! Which has a HIGH potential to quickly become violent, especially since you ARE focused on your flying right!?

We've all seen how road rage is increasing in both frequency AND severity... What is to stop Karen from assaulting you while you're trying to land so you can "handle" her!?

Oh well, this is why I exercise my second amendment rights EVERYWHERE I go, and I recommend you do too (especially after this RID crap goes into effect)...

Just my $0.02

 

[Dmcvey]

By Sept 16, 2022 Manufacturers have to comply with new their new products.....except the FAA has yet to issue a Means of Compliance protocol to follow.

 

[djwak59]

Try to follow me here before you judge, ok ?
I’ve been flying low quality, “toy” type drones, at the local PARK, for a couple years now.
I just bought a MA2 FlyMore because the price was right, and I still over extended a little to get it. I wanted to move up to a higher quality drone, more for my own peace of mind, better performance, quality, and durability. Ok, get it ?, MY enjoyment and peace of mind.
I haven’t even FLOWN it or bound it to the controller yet.
Why ?? Because when I read posts like this one, and some others, it’s becoming more and more apparent to me that I will NOT be enjoying going to the park early morning and just flying my drone.
It looks like more and more I’ll have to look over my shoulder for people who think I’m spying on them ( not that I didn’t before) and now the drone police too with all these rules and regulations. I totally understand the safety issues, altitude, crowds, close to airports, but cmon !!
It’s NOT what I invested my money on or for. I KNOW this is a rant, and probly I’ll be reamed out for it, but sorry, just READING some of these different posts has taken the whole enjoyment out of flying, and makes me wanna put my brand new Mavic up for sale.
Just my own opinions.

 

[GFields]

Try to follow me here before you judge, ok ?
I’ve been flying low quality, “toy” type drones, at the local PARK, for a couple years now.
I just bought a MA2 FlyMore because the price was right, and I still over extended a little to get it. I wanted to move up to a higher quality drone, more for my own peace of mind, better performance, quality, and durability. Ok, get it ?, MY enjoyment and peace of mind.
I haven’t even FLOWN it or bound it to the controller yet.
Why ?? Because when I read posts like this one, and some others, it’s b

I can understand your hypertension.

So, long as you follow the FAA rules governing drone flights you will be alright. Rules are placed for safety and not to keep you from flying.

 

[Photo guy]

I think that the remote ID is a good thing BUT having the signal being available to anyone with the right software is a bad idea. I don't need some whack job tracking me down because they don't like drones just so they can cause trouble. Any Karen out there would have a field day.

Instead I think the signal should be encrypted and only authorized people such as law enforcement as such should have the "key" to decrypt and read the ID locations. There is absolutely no need for the general public to have the ability to track you. Law enforcement encrypts their radio traffic so Joe public can't listen in which keeps the police safe. The same should apply to us flyers.

agree

 

[Photo guy]

Try to follow me here before you judge, ok ?
I’ve been flying low quality, “toy” type drones, at the local PARK, for a couple years now.
I just bought a MA2 FlyMore because the price was right, and I still over extended a little to get it. I wanted to move up to a higher quality drone, more for my own peace of mind, better performance, quality, and durability. Ok, get it ?, MY enjoyment and peace of mind.
I haven’t even FLOWN it or bound it to the controller yet.
Why ?? Because when I read posts like this one, and some others, it’s becoming more and more apparent to me that I will NOT be enjoying going to the park early morning and just flying my drone.
It looks like more and more I’ll have to look over my shoulder for people who think I’m spying on them ( not that I didn’t before) and now the drone police too with all these rules and regulations. I totally understand the safety issues, altitude, crowds, close to airports, but cmon !!
It’s NOT what I invested my money on or for. I KNOW this is a rant, and probly I’ll be reamed out for it, but sorry, just READING some of these different posts has taken the whole enjoyment out of flying, and makes me wanna put my brand new Mavic up for sale.
Just my own opinions.

It's totally understandable, and I share your concern. I try to make sure no one is near when I'm flying in public places. A lot of Nervous Nellies out there, not to mention those who think they're entitled to tell you how and where to fly. I've been using my Mini 2 as part of my job photographing flower beds for a local non-profit. As long as I have the right permissions, it's nobody's business unless I'm interfering with their privacy.

 

[dirkclod]

Try to follow me here before you judge, ok ?
I’ve been flying low quality, “toy” type drones, at the local PARK, for a couple years now.
I just bought a MA2 FlyMore because the price was right, and I still over extended a little to get it. I wanted to move up to a higher quality drone, more for my own peace of mind, better performance, quality, and durability. Ok, get it ?, MY enjoyment and peace of mind.
I haven’t even FLOWN it or bound it to the controller yet.
Why ?? Because when I read posts like this one, and some others, it’s becoming more and more apparent to me that I will NOT be enjoying going to the park early morning and just flying my drone.
It looks like more and more I’ll have to look over my shoulder for people who think I’m spying on them ( not that I didn’t before) and now the drone police too with all these rules and regulations. I totally understand the safety issues, altitude, crowds, close to airports, but cmon !!
It’s NOT what I invested my money on or for. I KNOW this is a rant, and probly I’ll be reamed out for it, but sorry, just READING some of these different posts has taken the whole enjoyment out of flying, and makes me wanna put my brand new Mavic up for sale.
Just my own opinions.

I would not let what I read in lots of these threads make you paranoid in the least. most members that post in lots of threads are agsint whatever but the rest don’t post and bet you it’s far more for it or
just are not worried about it. Like crash threads, you see lots but
but folks hardly ever post saying they hadn’t and what A fun feeling
they had . Go fly and enjoy yourself now. You never know if it will
be a tomorrow, nobody does.
Reread post 31, we are a year off from anything anyway.

 

[Chip]

You got me. I dunno. About 19,000 J3s were built; 5500 of them are still flying. Piper also built a number of other non-electric models. The same is true for Taylorcraft, Aeronca, and various others. So quite a few remain. Two of my four planes are grandfathered. My wild guess would be maybe 40-50,000 total are grandfathered. But don't hold me to that.

"and how much the module costs to retrofit"

It's not that simple. Most of these planes run small Continental engines that have no provision for mounting an engine driven electrical system (A65-8, A75-8, A80-8, C75-8, C85-8, C90-8, and others). So before mounting the ADSB module you have to swap out the engine to one that is approved for the airplane and does provide for mounting a generator (C85-12, etc). And since the mags for a -8 and -12 turn in opposite directions, you have to swap them out too. And the tach turns opposite as well. So replace the tach. And while you're at it, you have to find an approved tach cable with reverse twist. I could go on, but I expect you get the picture. Cost of the module is the least of it. Oh, and if you retrofit a generator or alternator, it permanently devalues the plane by about $5,000-$10,000 even if you later remove the electrical system. In some cases it means that gross weight limitations are such that the plane can no longer carry a passenger. Do you really want to do those things to your plane?

Jim, it sounds like older planes can be very expensive to retrofit with ADS-B. That explains the grandfathering. But, if I may ask this. Do most or all airplanes equipped with ADS-B have a switch inside the cockpit that allows the radio signal to be turned off if and when the pilot so chooses?

 

[GFields]

Jim, it sounds like older planes can be very expensive to retrofit with ADS-B. That explains the grandfathering. But, if I may ask this. Do most or all airplanes equipped with ADS-B have a switch inside the cockpit that allows the radio signal to be turned off if and when the pilot so chooses?

Please Stay on topic.

 

[Chip]

Please Stay on topic.

Race Day Quads argued that the FAA's justification for remote ID on grounds of national security was bogus as evidenced in part by the FAA's apparent lack of concern over airplanes which can fly in large areas of the country with no ADS-B. Many people believe that airplanes pose far more significant risk and should be tracked more closely than a 251 gram drone with a 20 minute flight time. Mike asked the question in this thread:

It seems like sUAS are being held to a pretty high standard of ID--
Are all (or any) other types of aircraft or users of Federal Airspace required to at all times to squawk as much information, even in class G airspace?

I thought this was good question. I gave my answer and Jim graciously corrected me by explaining that all airplanes are supposed to broadcast ADS-B even in Class G airspace but that many thousands of older planes are "grandfathered" and do not. He also explained the potentially high cost of retrofit which may explain the FAA's leniency.

My understanding is that there is no shutting off remote ID at UAV pilot discretion. I just wanted to know if airplane pilots can turn off ADS-B with a switch at their discretion. I am thinking that yes they probably can but I figured Jim would know.

 

[KLRSKIR]

As always, Russ gives you a quick, clear and concise view of what's to come. IMHO, at this time there is nothing good about it, for commercial operators nor hobbyists.

Video here.