Warnings About Regional and Burning Man Events

[Dogpilot]

Just returned from AfrikaBurn. I am one of the Airspace Managers, for fixed wing, rotary wing and reluctantly function as the drone police. Just to let folks know, if they plan to attend any of the worldwide or US based Burning Man events there are specific rules, which prohibit any but our one or two permitted, possessing waivers, insurance and proper local licensing from FAA/CAA to film at the events. This year we started very aggressive policing of illegal drone flights. We captured 15 drones this year at AfrikaBurn alone, ranging from a Mavic 3 Pro to an assortment of 2's and minis. We do eventually give them back to the owners, but make it a colossal pain in the a$$ to teach them a lesson. A few argue with us, and I simply point out the nearby law enforcement officer, who lurks close by. Choice: we confiscate it, you eventually get it back, or face the local closed airspace, flight over large events, no commercial local license, no waiver and no insurance criminal violations. These charges will add up to many thousands in fines, many automatic, permanent loss of equipment and possible jail time. Depends on the local laws in that country.

We are in the process of buying the latest flight ID tracking devices, but we seem to be doing quite well with hand-talkies and eyeballs. What goes up must come down. So In next years events, we will be electronically logging and passing to local CAA, violators. It is a safety hazard to the participants and a violation of their right to privacy and a severe hazard to our medivac helicopters and fixed wing traffic. Spread the word, we would prefer not to have this as a primary job, but rather the occasional dufus to deal with.

 

[Cafguy]

Sound Advice And points well Taken. I have been to Burning man once (ugh) but not with Drone. The Authorities here in So. Cal don't mess around if you are caught flying your drone near any event such as this without direct permission so I am sure it is the same at Burning Man.

 

[GwenHaney]

Just returned from AfrikaBurn. I am one of the Airspace Managers, for fixed wing, rotary wing and reluctantly function as the drone police. Just to let folks know, if they plan to attend any of the worldwide or US based Burning Man events there are specific rules, which prohibit any but our one or two permitted, possessing waivers, insurance and proper local licensing from FAA/CAA to film at the events. This year we started very aggressive policing of illegal drone flights. We captured 15 drones this year at AfrikaBurn alone, ranging from a Mavic 3 Pro to an assortment of 2's and minis. We do eventually give them back to the owners, but make it a colossal pain in the a$$ to teach them a lesson. A few argue with us, and I simply point out the nearby law enforcement officer, who lurks close by. Choice: we confiscate it, you eventually get it back, or face the local closed airspace, flight over large events, no commercial local license, no waiver and no insurance criminal violations. These charges will add up to many thousands in fines, many automatic, permanent loss of equipment and possible jail time. Depends on the local laws in that country.

We are in the process of buying the latest flight ID tracking devices, but we seem to be doing quite well with hand-talkies and eyeballs. What goes up must come down. So In next years events, we will be electronically logging and passing to local CAA, violators. It is a safety hazard to the participants and a violation of their right to privacy and a severe hazard to our medivac helicopters and fixed wing traffic. Spread the word, we would prefer not to have this as a primary job, but rather the occasional dufus to deal with.

I know this question goes against all that you are trying to do, but.....

Could you tell us how some of these pilots who have broken the rules, evaded being caught by you guys?

What if they blacked out all their running lights? What about not operating the RC in VLOS. What if they hid somplace nearby in a hidden area?

If they needed to escape being chased by ground personnel, what if they flew to the illegal flight limit of most DJI drones 1640 ft, then depart the scene as far as possible, then land way off in some secluded area where vehicles could not easily get into?

Do you guys ever use other drones to chase these people? Like drones with thermal cameras?

I was with a friend once. He told me how he escaped ground patrols. He would fly near them, close enough for them to see the drone. Then he would fly in the opposite direction of where he was. Once they chased his drone far enough, he would fly so high that the drone couldn't be seen or heard. At this point he would fly away, but not necessarilly to his location. He would then get in his car and go to the location his drone is hovering, If he didn't see any patrols from the air or ground he would land, throw the drone in the trunk and leave.

Oh, regarding RID. He would take off from a home point , the drive several blocks away from where he took off from. The patrols using RID would find no one at the take off point.

 

[Dogpilot]

To answer your question, virtually none of the folks evaded us. While there are 4 of us at the last event who are strictly airspace. We are augmented by roughly 50 Rangers, spread out all over also on the radio net along with six law enforcement. The drones seem to always come out at the same times, early morning, sunset. Best lighting. There no being out of the area and stealth thing with your vehicle. The area outside all events is patrolled and closed with no road access. The US Burning Man event even has ground personal radar, tracking people outside the perimeter on foot. We had one person try that, but one of the airspace folk was actually right behind him walking back after the morning helipad check.

So the folks running without lights, we are particularly cruel to, we make them come back the day after the event ends. So they must leave the area and camp, or stay in a hotel far away and drive back. While it is a clever idea, the drone is silhouetted (there is a surprising amount of illumination from artsy installations or vigorously burning installations) and we track via vector from one of the burns, for example and then the folks in the camping area just wait for it to descend and turn its landing lights on. Must laugh, I came up to one hiding in a bunch of parked campers, between two. He was reaching up to hand capture. He grabbed it turned to leave to run face to face with me. I simply said , "well that's mine now." He was running without lights. He did start to protest, but the LEO came over and explained the two options, lots of money, some jail time in The West Cape Regional lockup in South Africa and being permanently Persona Non-Grata in South Africa, or hand it to the nice gentleman here and I saw nothing.

As for RID, well unless your drone can do 10 kilometers one way, film, then return, that plan will not work. In South Africa, the event is on private land. So your would also have the angry, possibly armed, land owner to contend with.

 

[GwenHaney]

To answer your question, virtually none of the folks evaded us. While there are 4 of us at the last event who are strictly airspace. We are augmented by roughly 50 Rangers, spread out all over also on the radio net along with six law enforcement. The drones seem to always come out at the same times, early morning, sunset. Best lighting. There no being out of the area and stealth thing with your vehicle. The area outside all events is patrolled and closed with no road access. The US Burning Man event even has ground personal radar, tracking people outside the perimeter on foot. We had one person try that, but one of the airspace folk was actually right behind him walking back after the morning helipad check.

So the folks running without lights, we are particularly cruel to, we make them come back the day after the event ends. So they must leave the area and camp, or stay in a hotel far away and drive back. While it is a clever idea, the drone is silhouetted (there is a surprising amount of illumination from artsy installations or vigorously burning installations) and we track via vector from one of the burns, for example and then the folks in the camping area just wait for it to descend and turn its landing lights on. Must laugh, I came up to one hiding in a bunch of parked campers, between two. He was reaching up to hand capture. He grabbed it turned to leave to run face to face with me. I simply said , "well that's mine now." He was running without lights. He did start to protest, but the LEO came over and explained the two options, lots of money, some jail time in The West Cape Regional lockup in South Africa and being permanently Persona Non-Grata in South Africa, or hand it to the nice gentleman here and I saw nothing.

As for RID, well unless your drone can do 10 kilometers one way, film, then return, that plan will not work. In South Africa, the event is on private land. So your would also have the angry, possibly armed, land owner to contend with.

You have a very impressive security operation. I'm glad to see drones can be controlled even if the pilot's intensions are to evade your protocols.

 

[GwenHaney]

To answer your question, virtually none of the folks evaded us. While there are 4 of us at the last event who are strictly airspace. We are augmented by roughly 50 Rangers, spread out all over also on the radio net along with six law enforcement. The drones seem to always come out at the same times, early morning, sunset. Best lighting. There no being out of the area and stealth thing with your vehicle. The area outside all events is patrolled and closed with no road access. The US Burning Man event even has ground personal radar, tracking people outside the perimeter on foot. We had one person try that, but one of the airspace folk was actually right behind him walking back after the morning helipad check.

So the folks running without lights, we are particularly cruel to, we make them come back the day after the event ends. So they must leave the area and camp, or stay in a hotel far away and drive back. While it is a clever idea, the drone is silhouetted (there is a surprising amount of illumination from artsy installations or vigorously burning installations) and we track via vector from one of the burns, for example and then the folks in the camping area just wait for it to descend and turn its landing lights on. Must laugh, I came up to one hiding in a bunch of parked campers, between two. He was reaching up to hand capture. He grabbed it turned to leave to run face to face with me. I simply said , "well that's mine now." He was running without lights. He did start to protest, but the LEO came over and explained the two options, lots of money, some jail time in The West Cape Regional lockup in South Africa and being permanently Persona Non-Grata in South Africa, or hand it to the nice gentleman here and I saw nothing.

As for RID, well unless your drone can do 10 kilometers one way, film, then return, that plan will not work. In South Africa, the event is on private land. So your would also have the angry, possibly armed, land owner to contend with.

I have an idea. I charge a fee. It's a company that tests security at events.

First, talk with the person in charge of security. See if he will allow you to test for weaknesses in catching drones.

The only possible way I see of getting in and out of this is to cover all lights, even landing lights. Then fly in at 600 feet. Not many people would see a silhouette at that altitude at dusk or dawn, or even daylight. Zoom in with whatever capabilities the drone has and film what you can, even though the quality at 600ft will probably be poor. Stay in the vicinity no longer than 5 minutes . Leave, still at 600 ft. Then land all the while watching you perimeter for anyone approaching on foot or in a vehicle. If anyone or any vehicle is seen approaching. Reestablish an altitude of 600ft and move drone and yourself, best if in a vehicle. I would make certain no one on foot or in a vehicle is near my landing area or approaching it.

Be safe. Good luck catching the dummies.

 

[mobilehomer]

Possibly a dumb question, but do you have TFRs in place for the events?

 

[Dogpilot]

Yes it is a NOTAM'd closed airspace, except for authorized fixed, heli and wavered drone operations. All operations by transient aircraft have a PPR number. The US Burn has a controlled actual air traffic area with FAA contract employees in the tower, look on the charts, 88NV.

I really would like to be clear here. If we cannot control this the local CAA will go all draconian. In the burn in Israel, Midburn. Run a drone, they will find you, put you in jail under terrorist charges, and most likely use counter drone measures against it, effectively destroying it. They are slightly more serious than most. They have lots of practice.

 

[Torque]

I know this question goes against all that you are trying to do, but.....

Could you tell us how some of these pilots who have broken the rules, evaded being caught by you guys?

What if they blacked out all their running lights? What about not operating the RC in VLOS. What if they hid somplace nearby in a hidden area?

If they needed to escape being chased by ground personnel, what if they flew to the illegal flight limit of most DJI drones 1640 ft, then depart the scene as far as possible, then land way off in some secluded area where vehicles could not easily get into?

Do you guys ever use other drones to chase these people? Like drones with thermal cameras?

I was with a friend once. He told me how he escaped ground patrols. He would fly near them, close enough for them to see the drone. Then he would fly in the opposite direction of where he was. Once they chased his drone far enough, he would fly so high that the drone couldn't be seen or heard. At this point he would fly away, but not necessarilly to his location. He would then get in his car and go to the location his drone is hovering, If he didn't see any patrols from the air or ground he would land, throw the drone in the trunk and leave.

Oh, regarding RID. He would take off from a home point , the drive several blocks away from where he took off from. The patrols using RID would find no one at the take off point.

Why does your "friend" find himself in situations where he must evade law enforcement? And often enought to have formulated a plan to keep from getting caught?

 

[Droning on and on...]

Curious: Does a FAA TFR apply to any "drone" in flight? For example, a Cheerson TX-10WD?



I'm sincerely curious. If not, where is the line drawn?

I'm curious about the regs/law, which I expect you all abide, given the forcefulness of your rhetoric here.

 

[Droning on and on...]

I was with a friend once. He told me how he escaped ground patrols. He would fly near them, close enough for them to see the drone. Then he would fly in the opposite direction of where he was. Once they chased his drone far enough, he would fly so high that the drone couldn't be seen or heard. At this point he would fly away, but not necessarilly to his location. He would then get in his car and go to the location his drone is hovering, If he didn't see any patrols from the air or ground he would land, throw the drone in the trunk and leave.

Oh, regarding RID. He would take off from a home point , the drive several blocks away from where he took off from. The patrols using RID would find no one at the take off point.

This story is highly suspect, and frankly I believe it is made up.

Specifically because of the RID claims, which simply can't be true yet.

 

[Dogpilot]

Well first off, let us be really clear here. Private event. We make the rules, reinforced by local regulations. If we say no drones, that means all, toys and actual drones. It is a public safety and personal privacy issue. No debate, no legal briefs submitted or arguments in court. I have not had to pull the trigger on LEO or just plain eject the offender from the event yet over drones. Don't laugh, we drop you on the road, you work out how to get home as an alternative to LEO. Private event, again. So far, I have only had to do that once in 12 years. Person used his truck to knock down art installations, impaired.

Look there are over 70,000 attendees at the US event. We had 12,000 this year at AfrikaBurn. Lots of people to take care of and provide a safe and fun time for. This is part of what we, the Credentialed Volunteers. I am not some dude who took on Airspace management. I was a former Navy Pilot, EW speciality and in the Test Program for 3 years as an AEDO. I have a Masters Degree in Aviation Safety. So I come at this as a credentialed professional. I also worked as a contractor for UNDP and WFP in Africa building and running airports in garden spots like Sudan and Somalia. Been doing this kind of work a long time. So not particularly intimidated by folks. I actually threw out a not-to-be-named billionaire out for trying to enter illegally by landing his private helicopter on our Medivac Pad this event as well. So drones are not my only irritant.

 

[Droning on and on...]

I really would like to be clear here. If we cannot control this the local CAA will go all draconian. In the burn in Israel, Midburn. Run a drone, they will find you, put you in jail under terrorist charges, and most likely use counter drone measures against it, effectively destroying it. They are slightly more serious than most. They have lots of practice.

Let me be clear here.

I support this policy and the effort to enforce it 100%.

I am utterly opposed to you, and those with your attitude doing it.

You display a very hostile, punitive disposition about enforcing rules. You are exactly the kind of person that should never be an LEO, or associated with enforcement. It is this kind of attitude that leads to conflict, and sometimes violence.

I suspect the vast vast majority of people putting up a drone at the Burning Man event in NV really don't know any better, don't know the rules, and are happy to comply. Terrorism Laws? You're serious, aren't you?

Far better would be to simply confiscate the drone, then give it back at the end of the last day, while the violators enjoy the rest of the event. There's no need to heap addition pain and hardship on someone for making an innocent mistake. It an opportunity to educate, not punish.

 

[Droning on and on...]

Well first off, let us be really clear here. Private event. We make the rules, reinforced by local regulations. If we say no drones, that means all, toys and actual drones.

No, no you don't.

The FAA does in the US. Period.

And what you are asserting, and the manner you put forth for enforcement is utterly inconsistent with the attitude and enforcement history of the FAA.

Simply put, they do not casually and routinely charge recreational pilots with terrorism for mistakenly, unknowingly, violating restricted airspace, for a social event.

And thank God the FAA doesn't act like this. Gestapo. Stasi. Those are words that come to mind.

 

[Dogpilot]

Look, I think I made it clear. We confiscate and give them back. If they try to evade purposefully, like no lights, we have fun with them. They get them back, eventually, they knew the rules and where purposefully trying to evade. There are very clear drone warnings on all the websites for all the events. Israel, which I do not have anything to do with their event. They will hammer you. Quite possibly due to particular circumstances in their country. Remember many countries are different in their legislative approach with drones and public gatherings. Not all the world is the USA. Israel has their own problems. So let us say somebody decides to attack the public event there. Something that has happened, not at Midburn but at other public gatherings in Israel, do you not ever follow international news. How should the local defense forces deal with this, wait until a bunch are killed? Your rights with drones are essentially nil you breaking the laws here. Just how can they tell an ISIS drone (you know they are only about 20 miles from the border with not so friendly types) from your little hobby one. You know there was a life before drones when we just had to cope without them.

Look, big sign warnings at the box office, on the website, and just common sense by owning a drone. Read the rules on large events. If you posses something aside from a toy you had to. Next year, we plan to use signs like the old Burma Shave ones, multiple ones down the entrance road in addition the the rather large ones at box office. If they claim ignorance, they would have to be blind and or illiterate. We would rather spend our time with real problems. I had one Medivac, which unfortunately passed before the helicopter arrived. I take real pleasure in saving people, like I did for 12 years doing relief work in Africa. Some people have no concept of the real world. Hurting people, yeah.

Luckily, I do not do the US burn anymore. Not my monkey not my circus anymore. I just do international ones. Besides, BLM, US Park Rangers, Pershing County Sheriff, FBI, and the FAA. Which all attend that event will likely do many more things to you that I can envision. They kind of dogpile on folks trying to get jurisdiction. The guy with the aforementioned truck received 97 citations from nearly everybody. I suspect he spent the better part of a year going to various federal and state courts. That's the USA.

 

[Droning on and on...]

I was a former Navy Pilot, EW speciality and in the Test Program for 3 years as an AEDO. I have a Masters Degree in Aviation Safety. So I come at this as a credentialed professional. I also worked as a contractor for UNDP and WFP in Africa building and running airports in garden spots like Sudan and Somalia.

Impressive experience and credentials. I sincerely tip my hat to your for your accomplishments.

However, the US is not Sudan or Somalia. The latitude you have there to treat people abusively you do not have in the US.

Been doing this kind of work a long time. So not particularly intimidated by folks.

No, obviously.

However, you really seem to relish intimidating folks. Therein lies the problem with you having anything to do with rules enforcement. You seem unwilling, or unable to do it properly in a civil, constructive way.

I actually threw out a not-to-be-named billionaire out for trying to enter illegally by landing his private helicopter on our Medivac Pad this event as well. So drones are not my only irritant.

The pleasure you seem to take in doing this is very troublesome.

I attend Burning Man, every year, and have for many. Drone flights are not a serious safety risk, the few that occur. There is no reason to treat these people like criminals any more than there is a speeder. Laws I have no doubt you have broken, if only inadvertently and innocently.

 

[Dogpilot]

Weird perceptions here. My Medivac was coming in at dusk for a patient, as I said unfortunately passed. Had the Helicopter hit one of the drones operating illegally there, it would have killed the crew. Our pad is only .5 kilometers from the event. So let us take the Billionaire and just the one real twit drone guy. Billionaire was trying to crash the event. The BM philosophy is nobody is any better than others. Don't go for the animal farm thing with others being more equal than others. No ticket, jump the gate. Hmm what is a fellow to do. He tried plenty of intimidation on us. We use the Ranger philosophy, swarm. However we stood firm, as did the attending Rangers and the Box office perimeter folks. It was my call ultimately as it was an airspace issue, with the ticket issue from box office weighing in.

The other one, yes intimidation. First off, we have a licensed drone operator for the event. That particular one, the one without lights, came and was flying around the legal drone, over large crowds, swooping in and out during the tree burn. So we found him, since it was not the first time he did it. We had him on video nearly colliding with the legal drone. We did only confiscate it, but he had to come back the day after the event to get it back. An action the event coordinator supported and endorsed, as she did with the ejection of the billionaire.

This is South Africa Folks, no FAA, they're CAA. Very strict rules, very big fines. The mentioned drone operator was German. He also illegally imported the drone to South Africa. Customs would have played hell with him had they found it. So our approach is to first confront with intent to confiscate, the German tried to leave the area with his drone. 5 rangers were there, aside from myself. LEO was off to the side. Ultimately yes, we had to intimidate since he was, perhaps a slightly stoned belligerent twit. Totally the guy I want operating a 3 lb brick (Mavic 3 Pro) over large groups of people.

So what would all of your civil petting procedure have been? I am not going to let the person walk off with the drone just to do it again. I cannot touch him physically. If it comes to that I just let LEO there in South Africa toss them in their truck and off to the lockup. We are trying to educate drone operators to actually understand to not bring them in the first place. How do you get the folks to comply. I do spend the mornings strolling about with a lime green vest from airspace, which we hastily affixed a drone symbol to. The people that are decent caring folk come and talk to us and we go over it with them. The twits, never do. There are lots of signs. The folks doing this knew they were breaking the rules. If it gets to be a problem, there is CAA, which will be attending next year as we finish the full time airstrip then. They will not take the confiscate approach. They kind of want the money fines provide. Again, we got 15, with one real twit out of that group.

Just remember folks the rest of the world is not the USA. Your license is not valid anyplace but there. Your little toy sub 250 gram drone is violating the power output on the transmitter in that country if it originated in the USA. If you didn't declare it at customs you are also violating the law in many countries. If you should switch it on, you're violating other laws concerning radios and output. Everyplace is different. Flying is a privilege not a right. Break the rules and lose the privilege. Oh and our rules thing mentioned. Private land and airspace rights in different countries vary. In South Africa the land owner also has to sign the operators waiver to be over their land with a drone, yes totally within our right to enforce. Different rules than the USA folks. Some countries do not use English Common Law as the basis, they use Code Napoleon. A system where essentially you are guilty until you prove your innocence, not exactly but essentially that in practice. That means you go to jail then prove your innocence. You just don't want to go there, over a drone.

 

[Flashheart]

I was a former Navy Pilot, EW speciality

Driver and SIGINT/ELINT. Nice, A-6? FA-18C/E?

 

[Echo4Thirty]

This attitude displayed is EXACTLY why former military should NEVER go into the public sector as civilian law enforcement nor have military hardware. We are not enemy combatants, nor are you the final authority in law, even at your "private" event.

 

[Dogpilot]

I think a little history is in order. At the US burn, when I was one of the leads on airspace as the, their title not mine, "Air Commander." We tried out a program where we did a two hour class going over all the rules and regulations where and when they could operate. We had a dedicated drone coordinator. The attendees got a hang tag to wear showing others they had attended and complied. Well it lasted a year. Every time an un-approved person saw a drone go up, they assumed they could do it as well. Rangers could not cope (this was 2016). Then there was some rather shrill loud in our face arguments about personal privacy. There is a policy of folks being able to get the purple no photo band to wear about. Some people take their privacy seriously, very seriously, really, really seriously. So with a drone operator unable to get consent, BMORG shut down all drone operations, it is noted in the NOTAM. Even the approved media drone operators have their footage reviewed.

In answer, E-2's, and some rare not well known DC-8's that kind of resembled a United Airlines birds (they played out of Key West), just didn't quite say United on the side. Even a couple a test helicopters for potential for EW for the Marines (H-46E's). Heck we even mounted two sidewinders on that one as well for dissimilar ACM testing. Actually worked quite well.