Who says I can't?

[Zeke]

Who says I can't fly over crowds? Or down the middle of the street? Or 900 feet in the air? I've introduced a couple of friends to drones, hooked them up with the Drone Zone, TRUST, and the importance of following the rules - BUT I CAN'T FIND THE RULES ANYWHERE!

When I got into drones back in (I think) 2016 I remember learning the do's and don'ts, but for the life of me I can't find anything anywhere in writing that says you can do this and you can't do that. Every link on the Drone Zone leads to a dead end, and other than continued references to the rules of a CBO (which I can't find either, both in Phoenix where I live or on any website).

So where does a new recreational pilot-wanna-be go for the straight scoop?

 

[Prop Wash]

Look here: https://www.faa.gov/uas/recreational_flyers
Scroll down the page to "What are the Rules for Recreational Flyers"
And this: https://www.faa.gov/uas/commercial_operators/operations_over_people

 

[Zeke]

Look here: https://www.faa.gov/uas/recreational_flyers
Scroll down the page to "What are the Rules for Recreational Flyers"
And this: https://www.faa.gov/uas/commercial_operators/operations_over_people

Thank you! The information on the Drone Zone page isn't very helpful but the link you provided is very informative, I appreciate it. I wish the FAA would link all of this in one location.

 

[Ty Pilot]

Thank you! The information on the Drone Zone page isn't very helpful but the link you provided is very informative, I appreciate it. I wish the FAA would link all of this in one location.

The FAA does have all this in one location, albeit that location (FAA's website) is massive. The first link posted by @Prop Wash is two clicks from the FAA's main Page, > 'Drones' > 'Recreational Flyers'
if you click it and scroll down to the heading 'What Are The Rules For Recreational Flyers' and under the second rule about flying according to a CBO you'll see a link in blue called Advisory Circular 91-57B.

That is a link to a PDF that further defines and explains the rules currently for recreation drone flights in the US. It is only seven pages so you can print and keep so you have the 'rules' right at hand.

 

[cheddar-man]

These are the laws in the UK.

 

[wardtom084]

Get him a free 107 book on the internet. Sure there will be more questions.

 

[EricF]

I think that links to similar drone flying regulations for other countries would be very helpful on this forum. Although most participants appear to be living in the US, the rules about flying drones can vary widely elsewhere. Seeing apparently-contradictory rules is confusing enough for drone owners, but it also further complicates the general public's view of what is legal or not.

As an example for Canada, refer to this Transport Canada government site ("Flying your drone safely and legally"). It includes links for various categories, including the less-stringent rules for "Micro drones (under 250 g)" that will likely apply to many users here.

 

[Suzygs1000]

I think that links to similar drone flying regulations for other countries would be very helpful on this forum. Although most participants appear to be living in the US, the rules about flying drones can vary widely elsewhere. Seeing apparently-contradictory rules is confusing enough for drone owners, but it also further complicates the general public's view of what is legal or not.

As an example for Canada, refer to this Transport Canada government site ("Flying your drone safely and legally"). It includes links for various categories, including the less-stringent rules for "Micro drones (under 250 g)" that will likely apply to many users here.

I believe that in all countries, regulations state that the drone, regardless of size, always be flown 'line of sight', and you must be able to see it at all times. therefore, I also believe that everyone who flies a DJI drone, except the Tello, is flying illegally. Why else would you have a drone that you can fly a couple of k's away with ease and safety? Please correct me if I am wrong .... I know Australian law prevents you flying ANY drone higher than 120 metres, and you must ALWAYS be able to see it ...

 

[EricF]

I believe that in all countries, regulations state that the drone, regardless of size, always be flown 'line of sight', and you must be able to see it at all times. therefore, I also believe that everyone who flies a DJI drone, except the Tello, is flying illegally. Why else would you have a drone that you can fly a couple of k's away with ease and safety? Please correct me if I am wrong .... I know Australian law prevents you flying ANY drone higher than 120 metres, and you must ALWAYS be able to see it ...

You confirm my point: different jurisdictions have different rules, and both drone users and the general public are poorly informed about what is illegal versus "good practice".

My 2nd link (about using drones <250 g in Canada) specifically includes (with my highlighting in italics):

While there are no prescriptive elements of the regulations, there is an expectation that the pilot of a micro drone to use good judgment, identify potential hazards, and take all necessary steps to avoid any risks associated with flying your drone.​

​

As a good practice, you should always:​

• maintain the drone in direct line of sight
• do not fly your drone above 400 feet in the air
• keep a safe lateral distance between your drone and any bystanders
• stay far away from aerodromes, airport, heliport and waterdrome
• avoid flying near critical infrastructures
• stay clear of aircrafts, at all time
• do a pre-flight inspection of your drone
• keep the drone close enough to maintain the connection with the remote controller
• avoid special aviation or advertised events

Follow these guidelines to avoid flying in a negligent or reckless manner and being subject to fines. Enjoy a safe flight and minimize the risk of incidents. Remember: if you feel that your flight is risky, don’t do it.​

So a Canadian flying a DJI Mini 2 or 3 is not limited to a 120m height as in Australia, and if they feel able to trust their gear to fly 2kms away from the controller, they only risk losing their aircraft. Moreover, note that the points above are presented as guidelines rather than strict rules.

I'm not against rules; I just think it would be prudent for drone users to be clear about what is allowed in their jurisdiction rather than assume that other jurisdiction's regulations being discussed on forums like this apply to them. We also should be prepared to accurately inform people who we interact with while flying about the applicable regulations. (I have a printed copy of the 2nd link PDF in my drone case to be able to show people who ask.)

 

[AnzacJack]

I believe that in all countries, regulations state that the drone, regardless of size, always be flown 'line of sight', and you must be able to see it at all times. therefore, I also believe that everyone who flies a DJI drone, except the Tello, is flying illegally. Why else would you have a drone that you can fly a couple of k's away with ease and safety? Please correct me if I am wrong .... I know Australian law prevents you flying ANY drone higher than 120 metres, and you must ALWAYS be able to see it ...

I wouldn’t assume that because you may fly illegally, every one flys illegally. It’s like assuming everyone drives over 120km/hr because their speedo says they can

 

[AnzacJack]

I would also familiarise yourself with Australian drone laws before making comments like “prevents you flying ANY drone higher than 120 metres, and you must ALWAYS be able to see it ...”
There are plenty of avenues to fly higher or further, with correct endorsements and clearances in place”
We are conducting more BVLOS training these days than standard training

 

[Suzygs1000]

I would also familiarise yourself with Australian drone laws before making comments like “prevents you flying ANY drone higher than 120 metres, and you must ALWAYS be able to see it ...”
There are plenty of avenues to fly higher or further, with correct endorsements and clearances in place”
We are conducting more BVLOS training these days than standard training

Ok, maybe .... thre may be some way to get around these restrictions .... I don't know, but I will take your word for it .... I was just going on the info on CASA website .... I guess what you are saying is that if I am prepared to undertake proper training, that I can legally fly above 120m, and not have to keep the quad in site? I guess these cost a bit of bread, and you are involved in the provision of the courses?

 

[Suzygs1000]

I wouldn’t assume that because you may fly illegally, every one flys illegally. It’s like assuming everyone drives over 120km/hr because their speedo says they can

Oh, ok, getting a bit pedantic .... do you actually dbelieve that most people who purchase these drones don't fly them illegally? Or are you just having a go at me for being logical?

 

[AnzacJack]

Oh, ok, getting a bit pedantic .... do you actually dbelieve that most people who purchase these drones don't fly them illegally? Or are you just having a go at me for being logical?

No, I know that many flaunt the laws either through ignorance or arrogance, but I dont assume everyone is like this. I dont think this is being pedantic. I work in the industry and know many operators across Australia flying commercially and recreationally.
Also, its not just about having proper training to operate outside of the 400ft / VLOS rules. Its about operational requirements and well as correct endorsements etc. This industry is growing daily and in may cases, outgrowing the the standard recreational rules and limitations. CASA is moving with technology and allowing for this to happen in the correct operational circumstances.
I dont wish to be correcting you, but it seems you are pretty new and inexperienced, and i just think you should be thinking about what you write, as you dont really know much about the industry.
Read and learn from these forums. They are a great resource. Stick to the rules that govern flight in Australia and dont be breaking the law because you assume everyone else is. This is not conducive to a safe environment nor your hip pocket

 

[Suzygs1000]

I follow where you are coming from ... to me , as it is too most Mini owners, I think, it is a hobby, and not an industry. I am new to this sport (Well, except for the fact that I have been flying fpv drones and planes for years) ..it appears that you're expertise is more aimed at the professional/commercial flyers, who probably don't fly Minis ...I would assume that these people do courses which allow flights outside the normal CASA rules. I still believe, however, that the greater majority of those flying Minis and Mini 2's break the law each time they fly, probably due to ignorance ... but again, no hobbyist is going to pay 8 or 9 hundred bucks for a drone to fly within 50 metres, and let's face it, when they get more than about 50 metres away, you can't see 'em. I would like to hear just what hoops you need to jump through to be able to override the height and VLOS regulation. I would also love to hear from any of the Mini, Mini SE and mini 2 owners who never break the law by flying above 120m or out of site ... I am interested to hear from you just what are the requirements that would allow being able to fly outside the limits set by CASA. regards Dave ... ps ... I have only just found out about these laws ... I assume that means than anyone flying FPV is breaking the law? They are never able to see their quad ...

 

[SethB]

…I would also love to hear from any of the Mini, Mini SE and mini 2 owners who never break the law by flying above 120m or out of site ...

I am a Mini 2 owner who has never intentionally exceeded 400’ AGL. I also never fly beyond VLOS. I use lightweight strobes to help with this while keeping under 250g.

“Everybody does it” is right behind “Hey, watch this” as a rationalization for poor safety management in piloting. “Accidents” happen most often to people who repeatedly engage in unsafe behaviors. Also see “I’ve done it lots of times, it’s never been a problem before.”

These are logical fallacies - accidents do happen, and most often to people who are not actively avoiding them.

 

[AnzacJack]

I follow where you are coming from ... to me , as it is too most Mini owners, I think, it is a hobby, and not an industry. I am new to this sport (Well, except for the fact that I have been flying fpv drones and planes for years) ..it appears that you're expertise is more aimed at the professional/commercial flyers, who probably don't fly Minis ...I would assume that these people do courses which allow flights outside the normal CASA rules. I still believe, however, that the greater majority of those flying Minis and Mini 2's break the law each time they fly, probably due to ignorance ... but again, no hobbyist is going to pay 8 or 9 hundred bucks for a drone to fly within 50 metres, and let's face it, when they get more than about 50 metres away, you can't see 'em. I would like to hear just what hoops you need to jump through to be able to override the height and VLOS regulation. I would also love to hear from any of the Mini, Mini SE and mini 2 owners who never break the law by flying above 120m or out of site ... I am interested to hear from you just what are the requirements that would allow being able to fly outside the limits set by CASA. regards Dave ... ps ... I have only just found out about these laws ... I assume that means than anyone flying FPV is breaking the law? They are never able to see their quad ...

I think you are one of those pilots that will just do what you want, and when taken to task, just point at someone else and say ‘look at that guy”
Pointless trying to discuss this any further with your mind set.

I personally fly a significant amount of time under recreational rules. When not flying commercially, Im still required to fly within the same rules as you. And yes i also fly mavic minis. I also regularly fly inspire under recreational rules. Just because i have spent plenty of $, doesnt mean i can break the law.

Your argument that spending 8-9hundred and having to stay within law. Its the same argument that if i spend big $ on a sports car i can speed. It just doesn't stand up. If you are going to spend that sort of money, you should be more than able to follow aviation laws as you are obviously not some uneducated kid spending $20 and have no idea about rules and regs or their existence.

I implore you, follow the rules and fly safely, or give it up and move onto model trains

As for the information you have asked.. start here

Apply for beyond visual line-of-sight approvals

FInd out how to apply for beyond visual line-of-sight approvals.

www.casa.gov.au

 

[Suzygs1000]

I am a Mini 2 owner who has never intentionally exceeded 400’ AGL. I also never fly beyond VLOS. I use lightweight strobes to help with this while keeping under 250g.

“Everybody does it” is right behind “Hey, watch this” as a rationalization for poor safety management in piloting. “Accidents” happen most often to people who repeatedly engage in unsafe behaviors. Also see “I’ve done it lots of times, it’s never been a problem before.”

These are logical fallacies - accidents do happen, and most often to people who are not actively avoiding them.

That's an interesting idea ... what strobes do you use, and how far away would you estimate that you can get and maintain LOS?

 

[SethB]

I'm using Firehouse Dual strobes, they used to be known as Cree 2.

Sorry, I don't have an estimate on max distance for LOS, as I'm not trying to set any records or even benchmark. I'm sure I've had the Mini 2 out to 500', but I've never tried for max distance.

That Mini 2 will disappear into gray skies pretty quickly without strobes... I think the big advantage is in quickly re-acquiring LOS after looking down at the controller.

 

[Suzygs1000]

I'm using Firehouse Dual strobes, they used to be known as Cree 2.

Sorry, I don't have an estimate on max distance for LOS, as I'm not trying to set any records or even benchmark. I'm sure I've had the Mini 2 out to 500', but I've never tried for max distance.

That Mini 2 will disappear into gray skies pretty quickly without strobes... I think the big advantage is in quickly re-acquiring LOS after looking down at the controller.

That'sfine, but I suppose my point is, why pay so much money for a drone you can fly 4 kilometres away safely, when, if your intentions is to keep within about 150 metres or so, then are hundreds of other drones that will do that job for less than half the money?