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Why flying BVLOS isn't a good idea . . .

"But I'm not sure that we have the maneuverability to do much if we don't have a lot of warning. "

I have difficulty imaging an aircraft with greater maneuverability than a DJI, or similar, drone. Having flown power planes and gliders before getting into drones, I can say that my Mini and 2S are far, far more maneuverable than anything I flew before.
The best descent speed on my M2P and Autel EVO2Pro is SLOW when trying to avoid anything - including birds - that may suddenly appear in your locality. There are mods that allow mods with the M2P which can allow it to descend like a homesick rock. ?
 
I'll add to the conversation as a former military jet pilot and add to what someone mentioned above. While they are more predominant in western half of the US, there are military training routes all over. The ones that would primarily pertain to this thread are VR or Visual Routes. You will see them depicted on charts as VR-xxxx. For the aircraft I flew, we would typically fly these routes at 300' AGL and at least 380kts ground speed. Our tactics actually were written for 200' AGL, so it's not unthinkable to see a jet there either. At those speeds, you won't here the jet coming. The photo of the C-130 kinda looks like it is flying a VR route. There is famous one out west called "Star Wars Canyon" or it is also known as the "Jedi Transition". Google it. Cool videos and pics.
 
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I run the AIRMAP APP, which I paid to upgrade, and ADS-B. I guess government aircraft don't need to transmit identifying info regarding position, alt, or direction. That's what I've been noticing anyway. I see a small craft or helicopters fly by and they don't show up on AirMap or ADS-B. I can see these low flying non transmitting aircraft, and they are always government. I guess that's just the perks of government.
Most of the aircraft I see without ADS-B are non-government planes. Government or not, ADS-B is not required near the surface in uncontrolled airspace except within 30 miles of a class B airport.
 
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Most of the aircraft I see without ADS-B are non-government planes. Government or not, ADS-B is not required near the surface in uncontrolled airspace except within 30 miles of a class B airport.
Interesting. Well, when ADS-B doesn't help, FlightRadar24 is a pretty cool app to help. You can see planes coming from miles away and you know their heading and altitude and thus, if they will be coming toward your drone. You can also see planes and helicopters sitting at 0ft sitting on the tarmac waiting for take off. It's also just enjoyable to see how crowded the airspace around me is and what kind of planes or helicopters are out and about.
 
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I was camped in my motor home in a popular camping area in southern Arizona when I heard a jet plane flying low and fast about a 1/2 mile N. of our camper so I rushed outside to take a look and the aircraft was about eye level doing about 500 MPH when I then heard a strange noise directly behind me and two seconds later the second plane arrived directly over our camper at just under the speed of sound and the noise was something I or my wife will never forget it not only blasted our eardrums but shook our entire body and was out of sight in seconds and heading for thousands of other campers in the area. I am a drone pilot " mini " and I know what 50 feet above ground level looks like and this plane was less than that.
So if my drone went into the jets engine and caused a real problem who would you blame ?
 
I was camped in my motor home in a popular camping area in southern Arizona when I heard a jet plane flying low and fast about a 1/2 mile N. of our camper so I rushed outside to take a look and the aircraft was about eye level doing about 500 MPH when I then heard a strange noise directly behind me and two seconds later the second plane arrived directly over our camper at just under the speed of sound and the noise was something I or my wife will never forget it not only blasted our eardrums but shook our entire body and was out of sight in seconds and heading for thousands of other campers in the area. I am a drone pilot " mini " and I know what 50 feet above ground level looks like and this plane was less than that.
So if my drone went into the jets engine and caused a real problem who would you blame ?
I was thinking. Since the FAA often makes statements like they want to incorporate Drones into the nations airspace, They never mention what advice or advice they give to pilots of manned aircraft. As drone operators are considered legitimate aircraft when registered, I was thinking that maybe some sort of education to manned aircraft should be given. Especially the facts regarding the numbers of drones in the sky are exponentially increasing and to avoid flying lower than 400 feet unless necessary. Especially over populated areas. I suspect suburbs and as you say (motor home parks) could pose a higher risk to manned aircraft regarding close proximity to more drones than in the recent past. They should just be educated regarding risk in areas where drones are known to be more numerous and active. I'm not making excuses. I just think the awareness of drone risks should be impressed upon to manned aircraft pilots. Unless of course, it already being done.

"Alert: Possible drone congested airspace, maintain a minimum altitude of 400ft"
 
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I was camped in my motor home in a popular camping area in southern Arizona when I heard a jet plane flying low and fast about a 1/2 mile N. of our camper so I rushed outside to take a look and the aircraft was about eye level doing about 500 MPH when I then heard a strange noise directly behind me and two seconds later the second plane arrived directly over our camper at just under the speed of sound and the noise was something I or my wife will never forget it not only blasted our eardrums but shook our entire body and was out of sight in seconds and heading for thousands of other campers in the area. I am a drone pilot " mini " and I know what 50 feet above ground level looks like and this plane was less than that.
So if my drone went into the jets engine and caused a real problem who would you blame ?
I would expect that kind of flying along a low-level training route or maybe in a hot MOA. You probably didn't check the airspace charts or NOTAMs before camping, but you should before flying.

There's a general 250 knot speed limit for all aircraft (including military) below 10,000 feet, but it doesn't apply in restricted areas, MOAs, etc.

If they flew over 250 knots below 500' over a group of campers, without notifying aviators, they have a serious black mark. If a drone pilot flys without checking the available charts and NOTAMs, there's a black mark on the drone. Drone pilots are always required to give way to manned aircraft.

The rules don't always allow a clear and unambiguous assignment of blame. Like when two cars collide at a four-way stop intersection, sometimes there is a bit of blame to be shared on both sides. All you can do is make sure you've done all you can do to know and comply with all the rules.
 
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Fact: I cannot avoid something I can’t see.
That's exactly the position the pilot of an aircraft is in (but to a much greater extent). Unless a pilot is very lucky, it's almost impossible to spot something as small as a drone with enough time to safely avoid it - I base this on many years of experience as a professional helicopter pilot. The rules about who has the responsibility to avoid the other is written very much on the basis of danger to life. If your drone collides with an aircraft, your $1000 dollar investment may be gone but you don't have a scratch on you. Conversely, the aircraft could conceivably sustain enough damage to force an emergency landing which could endanger the life of the pilot and any passengers on board.

It might be useful to point out that there is a well established right-of-way hierarchy in the skies that is directly tied to relative maneuverability. Helicopters must give way to powered fixed wing aircraft

Not unless the rules are different in the US. All manned heavier-than-air, powered aircraft have the same responsibility to avoid each other irrespective of whether they are fixed wing or helicopters. There are plenty of cases where helicopters are less manoeuvrable than fixed wing - when carrying underslung loads, for example. At cruise speeds, helicopters are generally no more manoeuvrable than most fixed wing aircraft (and considerably less so than aerobatic types).

Since the FAA often makes statements like they want to incorporate Drones into the nations airspace, They never mention what advice or advice they give to pilots of manned aircraft.

Manned aircraft are taught to avoid everything they can! The problem is that you need to be able to see something to avoid it and drones are incredibly difficult to spot (see above). If an aircraft pilot spotted a drone, unless it would endanger his aircraft he would try to avoid it - no pilot would assume that anything on a collision course would manoeuvre out of the way.
 
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I agree. And understand that it is our obligation to make way for any manned aircraft. But I'm not sure that we have the maneuverability to do much if we don't have a lot of warning. Fixed wing craft are almost certainly flying faster than 100mph and I would suspect helos wouldn't be much slower. S

Last week or so I was flying over Lake Michigan at a relatively low altitude, probaby under 200', and heard a helicopter off in the distance but couldn't see it. My first reaction was to pull down on the left stick and descend as fast as I could until I could spot it knowing that in that area it could be flying relatively low over the water. I never did visually spot it, but took note that if it were close at any type of cruising speed I would be powerless to get out of the way in a significant way, though I recognize that a only few feet can avoid collisions. Even if VLOS the angles at which I can see and the angle of an approaching aircraft makes it difficult to know which way to manueuver for avoidance.
Some drones like the DJIs have the ability to stop the rotors mid flight in an emergency situation. If you do that, the drone will become little more than a rock and will plummet from the sky at 9.8 m/s/s. That is almost certainly preferable to a collision with a manned aircraft. Most people, myself included, would rather be responsible for replacing a drone than be responsible for taking a life.
 
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Some drones like the DJIs have the ability to stop the rotors mid flight in an emergency situation. If you do that, the drone will become little more than a rock and will plummet from the sky at 9.8 m/s/s. That is almost certainly preferable to a collision with a manned aircraft. Most people, myself included, would rather be responsible for replacing a drone than be responsible for taking a life.
Can't see a manned aircraft? Think it's too close, by hearing it? Crash your drone. Then you realize the helicopter or aircraft is 500 ft to the left and 200 ft higher than your drones position was. Oops, it's just a 1000 dollar drone.
 
That's exactly the position the pilot of an aircraft is in (but to a much greater extent). Unless a pilot is very lucky, it's almost impossible to spot something as small as a drone with enough time to safely avoid it - I base this on many years of experience as a professional helicopter pilot. The rules about who has the responsibility to avoid the other is written very much on the basis of danger to life. If your drone collides with an aircraft, your $1000 dollar investment may be gone but you don't have a scratch on you. Conversely, the aircraft could conceivably sustain enough damage to force an emergency landing which could endanger the life of the pilot and any passengers on board.
Right I wasn’t saying otherwise my point is that when a manned aircraft is going 150 mph at 200 ft AGL there’s nothing either of us can do based on visual VFR that would allow a collision to be avoided.

In this day and age of technology it would seem the obvious solution would be to require equipment that allow both pilots to see each other well before collision. Drones are now required to transmit their location at all times but manned aircraft are not. Yet it’s the sUAV pilot’s responsibility to avoid the manned aircraft. How does that make sense?
 
In this day and age of technology it would seem the obvious solution would be to require equipment that allow both pilots to see each other well before collision.
It would certainly be useful if the drone pilot knew where approaching aircraft were coming from. However, that would rely on all aircraft operating at low level having ADS-B which isn't currently the case. The problem is that for the aircraft pilot, even if he knew which general direction to look in, he'd still struggle to see something as small as the average drone.
 
The problem is that for the aircraft pilot, even if he knew which general direction to look in, he'd still struggle to see something as small as the average drone.
But it would allow the pilot to avoid the area or change altitudes. If the FAA is confident that the technology for Remote ID on drones will be accessible to manned aircraft in the airspace it would seem the same technology could work the other way around.

Does it seem reasonable to you to require the same technology to be equipped on manned aircraft that don’t already have ADS-B out?
 
Happen to be at the beach on Hilton head island. Saw this wonderful kite someone was flying. Suddenly this helicopter came out of nowhere. He had to change heading to avoid. Had that of been a drone BVLOS, could been a different outcome.
36a12c94a92710bbce8f9d245cc747f6.jpg
 
Happen to be at the beach on Hilton head island. Saw this wonderful kite someone was flying. Suddenly this helicopter came out of nowhere. He had to change heading to avoid. Had that of been a drone BVLOS, could been a different outcome.
36a12c94a92710bbce8f9d245cc747f6.jpg

2804bb4c1efe47d5d5aaf798ae870679.jpg
 
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It's imperative to understand that due to operational requirements, terrain, and other local factors, FlightRadar24 can have omissions and serious delays in certain areas. I'm sure it's better now but just 18 months ago, in the USA, FlightRadar24 was only noted as showing 30% of non-Commercial Air Traffic. That wasn't a TYPO it was less than 30%. This doesn't even account for "Lag" which could be a few minutes in some instances which is "useless" information for Situational Awareness. It's cool for "entertainment" value but worthless and misleading if you're actually needing to USE the information. Would you rely on a Pacemaker that was only 30% effective?

If you're relying solely on FlightRadar24 (or any of the other Radar/ADS-B apps) you're not seeing the WHOLE picture.
 
But it would allow the pilot to avoid the area or change altitudes.
I can only assume that you're not a pilot! There are circumstances where changing altitude might not be an option and having to continuously avoid areas where drones were flying could potentially make certain parts of the airspace almost unusable for aircraft. That's one of the reasons why the onus is on the drone operator to actively avoid aircraft.

Does it seem reasonable to you to require the same technology to be equipped on manned aircraft that don’t already have ADS-B out?
No. That system would only be of use to drone users as it will probably be relatively short range and would also need to be fitted to all aircraft to be practical. Even then, if the aircraft was masked by terrain or buildings (which would probably be why you couldn't see it in the first place), you almost certainly wouldn't pick up the signal from it rendering the system unusable. I'm sure that RID will have similar limitations. The rules are quite clear (and sensible, in my opinion). Manned aircraft will always be the priority - your perceived annoyances as a drone operator will never outweigh the safety of humans. You have no special right to operate your drone where and when you want expecting full sized aircraft to avoid you.

Suddenly this helicopter came out of nowhere. He had to change heading to avoid. Had that of been a drone BVLOS, could been a different outcome.
I agree. Kites are generally large and brightly coloured so are easier to spot from a distance, unlike recreational drones or most birds.
 
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