A mountain, a regulation, and maybe unfounded "rules"

[MKurr]

The question is simple, yet, the answer may not be...

I live very near Gore Mountain Ski Center, in North Creek. Today I wanted to film it> The problem? Their regulations.

On their website they say this:
That can be found here: Mountain Safety | Gore Mountain

Here is the AirMap view:

No NFZs right?

So the FAA doesn't mind, the mountain guys do, do I?

>The rule says: "Drones are not permitted on the mountain. "
So? Who cares? (right?) Does the drone ever touch the mountain? or even the tip of a tree which has its roots in the mountain?

We all know the FAA is clear about that part (I can hover over someones house all day legally (not that that is something anyone should do, but still))... Does the same apply to this place?

On the FAA website:

Fact Sheet – Small Unmanned Aircraft Regulations (Part 107)

www.faa.gov

I could have not even posted that part since I think we all know that private citizens (or companies) don't have a clam to their aerospace...

So, if I don't take off on their land, I can still fly there? (reminds me of the story we recently heard about the guy who was arrested for flying in a park and then won the case...)

Also, let's presume that I can fly there but not take off/land there. Can I control from there if it is a public place? (Public not in the sense of taxpayer land but as in: Open to the public without entry fee or any indication that one would use their services)

Please help clarify.

 

[MKurr]

Btw, It seems the mountain is Government owned....

 

[sar104]

They can prohibit you from taking off and landing since the land appears to be owned by the State, and it doesn't look like you can get close enough on public land to launch from outside.

 

[MKurr]

They can prohibit you from taking off and landing since the land appears to be owned by the State, and it doesn't look like you can get close enough on public land to launch from outside.

Why not? Launch a half a mile before I get there, fly from vehicle (FAA sparsely populated area clause), and control from parking lot....

 

[sar104]

Why not? Launch a half a mile before I get there, fly from vehicle (FAA sparsely populated area clause), and control from parking lot....
View attachment 96020

Sure - if you are willing to fly illegally beyond VLOS then that could work.

 

[Mrmund]

It's only Gore...
Not to rain on your parade because I'm feeling like this forum sometimes gets too negative/grouchy but have you considered another approach?
I haven't yet but I'm hoping to get some cool video and photos of skiing and snowboarding myself.
You could "technically" follow the regulations and take off/land parked off the grounds and walk behind your aircraft as you fly in(keeping VLOS) make sure you're not flying over people, get your shots and walk back out to land off the grounds. You would be legal but you'd also ruin things for other people.
The staff/security would get reports of a drone.
Ski mom's would stress out about safety
They'd start searching for you, find you standing somewhere near the bottom of the mountain (because you're holding an RC looking up)and freak out on you while you're flying no matter how much you explained to them it was legal.

Different options:
Pick some cool stuff you've taken, chat up the lift guys/instructors and show them. Tell them you'd love to meet up when they session something.
Make new friends.
Get VIP treatment at the mountain "that guy Kurr is cool, he's with us".
Get private access to mountain without hassle

Get your part 107. Bring your best stuff to PR person at mountain and offer to take new photos and videos for them. Show them you have insurance, schedule a time and go for it
Make new friends.
Get VIP treatment at the mountain "that guy Kurr is cool, he's with us".
Get private access to mountain without hassle.

If you try to fly the way you're talking about you might get some rushed shots but you'll also piss off a whole bunch of people and make everyone think us drone flyers are jerks.
I know some New England ski mountain people so if you want to try to set something up for next year DM me, I'm always looking for another excuse to fly

 

[MKurr]

Sure - if you are willing to fly illegally beyond VLOS then that could work.

Wait, what do you mean? VLOS maintained the whole time... Do you mean that the sparsely populated area clause doesn't apply?

From the parking lot:

You have a good VLOS view of the whole side of the mountain...

 

[MKurr]

It's only Gore...
Not to rain on your parade because I'm feeling like this forum sometimes gets too negative/grouchy but have you considered another approach?
I haven't yet but I'm hoping to get some cool video and photos of skiing and snowboarding myself.
You could "technically" follow the regulations and take off/land parked off the grounds and walk behind your aircraft as you fly in(keeping VLOS) make sure you're not flying over people, get your shots and walk back out to land off the grounds. You would be legal but you'd also ruin things for other people.
The staff/security would get reports of a drone.
Ski mom's would stress out about safety
They'd start searching for you, find you standing somewhere near the bottom of the mountain (because you're holding an RC looking up)and freak out on you while you're flying no matter how much you explained to them it was legal.

Different options:
Pick some cool stuff you've taken, chat up the lift guys/instructors and show them. Tell them you'd love to meet up when they session something.
Make new friends.
Get VIP treatment at the mountain "that guy Kurr is cool, he's with us".
Get private access to mountain without hassle

Get your part 107. Bring your best stuff to PR person at mountain and offer to take new photos and videos for them. Show them you have insurance, schedule a time and go for it
Make new friends.
Get VIP treatment at the mountain "that guy Kurr is cool, he's with us".
Get private access to mountain without hassle.

If you try to fly the way you're talking about you might get some rushed shots but you'll also piss off a whole bunch of people and make everyone think us drone flyers are jerks.
I know some New England ski mountain people so if you want to try to set something up for next year DM me, I'm always looking for another excuse to fly

Also something to keep in mind of course... I get most of your points although I still think it's very easy to do without anyone really noticing it... Because I would be standing/(sitting in my car) on the parking lot, the skiers would only see me when getting into their cars.... Although I still agree with your other options...

One more thing to keep in mind, I'm not sure how long I'll be able to stay "in drones" with the new laws coming up, maybe I should film it while I still can, before the FAA crushes--- well, we know the rest....

 

[sar104]

Wait, what do you mean? VLOS maintained the whole time... Do you mean that the sparsely populated area clause doesn't apply?

From the parking lot:
View attachment 96025
You have a good VLOS view of the whole side of the mountain...

That's LOS. VLOS refers to being able to see your aircraft, its orientation and its surroundings.

 

[MKurr]

That's LOS. VLOS refers to being able to see your aircraft, its orientation and its surroundings.

I have a wide windshield

 

[MKurr]

That's LOS. VLOS refers to being able to see your aircraft, its orientation and its surroundings.

Someone else would be driving, I would be flying from the passenger seat as far in front as I could get looking out at the drone flying at about tree level in front of me, seeing everything around me and maintaining VLOS, LOS, and staying safe...

 

[MKurr]

One more thing, has anyone considered having a spotter with a radio be the mountain and yourself flying from safe land? Would that work?

 

[OurAngryBadger]

One more thing, has anyone considered having a spotter with a radio be the mountain and yourself flying from safe land? Would that work?

Per Section 107.31, the person operating the drone is required to maintain visual line of sight (VLOS) with the drone throughout the entire flight. That means you should be able to see your drone with vision that is unaided by any device other than glasses or contacts.

The FAA also allows a visual observer (VO) to maintain VLOS. The VO must be near the operator and be able to communicate verbally without the assistance of an electronic device.

 

[Mrmund]

Also something to keep in mind of course... I get most of your points although I still think it's very easy to do without anyone really noticing it... Because I would be standing/(sitting in my car) on the parking lot, the skiers would only see me when getting into their cars.... Although I still agree with your other options...

One more thing to keep in mind, I'm not sure how long I'll be able to stay "in drones" with the new laws coming up, maybe I should film it while I still can, before the FAA crushes--- well, we know the rest....

Going for it like you were thinking is exactly why the DHS is pushing the FAA to enact remote right now.
You represent all of us so make us look good!

 

[Mrmund]

One more thing, has anyone considered having a spotter with a radio be the mountain and yourself flying from safe land? Would that work?
[/QUOT

One more thing, has anyone considered having a spotter with a radio be the mountain and yourself flying from safe land? Would that work?

That probably counts for legal.
The problem isn't actually the law it's flying a drone over a ski mountain. Their rules say no, staff deal with it all the time and know what to keep an eye out for. Even if you're safe it'll still freak people out, we should try to have better interactions with the "public". If you're still going to do it go crack of dawn before anybody else is around and "run and gun it" and be out

 

[sar104]

Per Section 107.31, the person operating the drone is required to maintain visual line of sight (VLOS) with the drone throughout the entire flight. That means you should be able to see your drone with vision that is unaided by any device other than glasses or contacts.

The FAA also allows a visual observer (VO) to maintain VLOS. The VO must be near the operator and be able to communicate verbally without the assistance of an electronic device.

The OP is recreational, not Part 107, and so falls under Section 349:

The aircraft is flown within the visual line of sight of​

the person operating the aircraft or a visual observer co-located​

and in direct communication with the operator.​

One more thing, has anyone considered having a spotter with a radio be the mountain and yourself flying from safe land? Would that work?

So no - that would not be compliant with the law.

 

[Davros007]

I personally think that the law is the law. People need to see and experience drones flying within the law. And they need to clearly understand they don’t own the airspace. So if you can fly an area VLOS that’s fine! You don’t need to explain yourself to anyone. But if you take off out of a private area then move into it whilst controlling a drone, you could still be deemed to be ‘operating’ the drone from their land. For me in West Australia, the Main Roads ruling is one I would utilise: you can fly from a main road road reserve, then fly over private or shire land above treetop height even if that person or shire doesn’t approve (whilst upholding other regulations). I do believe that as drone users, whilst we need to avoid annoying people just for the sake of it, avoiding annoying those people who “just don’t like drones” is kowtowing to over-zealous regulation and feeds the idea that people own airspace when they don’t. A “no drones allowed” statement (not related to air safety rules or truly for animal protection), is like a red rag to a bull for me: challenge accepted!

 

[unionglzr]

Why not? Launch a half a mile before I get there, fly from vehicle (FAA sparsely populated area clause), and control from parking lot....
View attachment 96020

dont think you can use their parking lot either

 

[theDRONEranger]

Please don’t do it! Nothing good will come of it! But, if you insist, then by all means contact the office/agency that has ownership/responsibility for the land area. Purpose your idea directly to them. If they approve, get it in writing! Otherwise, please don’t do it!

 

[unionglzr]

Why not? Launch a half a mile before I get there, fly from vehicle (FAA sparsely populated area clause), and control from parking lot....
View attachment 96020

if they own parking lot because you took off from beyond your property line I don't think that gives you the right to be able to bring your remote into the property and fly the drone from there it's the same thing is taken off