Almost Arrested

[sar104]

If he was on the main road he was OK as long as there were no yellow lines or no parking signs, if he was actually in the visitor center then he comes under the rules of the trust, on the main road the security guard has no power or no more than any other person.

He already explained in post #21 that he was not on the main road - he was on a lane or minor road west of the henge.

 

[Scubadiver1944]

Please note that in the UK in a public place there is no presumption of privacy and anyone can take pictures of anything within reason. Taking pictures of military bases will probably cause problems as might taking pictures of an empty airport, (there have to be planes!). NationalTrust land is not a public place so you have to abide by their rules

Yes, but can you imagine the public disobedience that would happen if they tried to stop access at those times.

You say National Trust land isn't a public place, then how does that square with their assertion on their own website that they're "Open For Everyone" and operate with the consent of Parliament. The point I'm trying to make, is the National Trust or English Heritage acting in the interests of us the general public (whether the British people, tourists or whoever) since I don't recall anybody in those organisations standing as candidates in elections, or are we expected to just take what they say as "Gospel" because they're VIP's whose authority can't be questioned? If it's on drone usage, commercial photography & filming all well & good, but if it stretches to members of the public using hand-held video cameras filming landmarks or scenery in which people just happen to be in shot, I think they'd be overstretching their authority, wouldn't you agree?

 

[sar104]

You say National Trust land isn't a public place, then how does that square with their assertion on their own website that they're "Open For Everyone" and operate with the consent of Parliament. The point I'm trying to make, is the National Trust or English Heritage acting in the interests of us the general public (whether the British people, tourists or whoever) since I don't recall anybody in those organisations standing as candidates in elections, or are we expected to just take what they say as "Gospel" because they're VIP's whose authority can't be questioned? If it's on drone usage, commercial photography & filming all well & good, but if it stretches to members of the public using hand-held video cameras filming landmarks or scenery in which people just happen to be in shot, I think they'd be overstretching their authority, wouldn't you agree?

I'm not aware of any National Trust prohibition on taking photos and videos. But they don't need the consent of parliament for every operational rule that they implement on their land.

 

[Scubadiver1944]

I'm not aware of any National Trust prohibition on taking photos and videos. But they don't need the consent of parliament for every operational rule that they implement on their land.

"Their land"? Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't this supposed to be the Nation's land i.e. our land?

 

[deleted member 877]

"Their land"? Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't this supposed to be the Nation's land i.e. our land?

It’s not intended to be literal. It means that they (NT) are in charge.

 

[Scubadiver1944]

It’s not intended to be literal. It means that they (NT) are in charge.

Agreed, problem is some of these bureaucrats act as though they are the owners. For example, trying to get permission to fly in a local park (purely for low-level practice) from the local council is impossible (unless you're forced to join a fixed-wing, model aircraft club at £100 per year), even if a park in the morning has nobody in it, the kids are all in school & they're lucky if one man & his dog are using it. When I queried if the council had publicised the policy of no drones in the local media or had looked to consult any of the drone-flying community, they said "No, but we've asked the opinions of the local churches, Friends of the Earth etc." What do they know about drones apart from what they read in the slanted, sensationalist headlines in the press? When registration becomes compulsory in November no more practice flights in the UK for me and will concentrate on flying on holiday abroad in those countries where the regulations are less paranoid & less restrictive to drone flyers.

 

[RobW01]

Maybe I should have known better, but I was an Aussie traveling in Britain with my trusty M2P and wanted to get a shot of Stonehenge. I went out the preceding day to check it out and there were thousands of people everywhere. I wanted an early morning shot with long shadows so returned the next morning to the place I'd identified as a good launching spot, with a good view of any people or other problems.

I went at 5.30am and there was no-one around and no-one near the Henge so I launched the Mavic and did some shots. Now at no time did I fly over the stones, nor did I fly anywhere near people (there was no-one there except a couple of security guards). The weather was overcast so I had to forget about long shadows but about 10 minutes into the flight a car pulled up with a security guard inside. I made no attempt to hide what I was doing and he got out of his car and told me in no uncertain terms to get the drone away from over the stones.

I politely pointed out that at no time was I ever over, or near the stones and that I didn't fly over people. I also pointed out there were no signs prohibiting flights. He took exception to this and said the site was National Trust run and flying over National Trust land is illegal. At this point he threatened to arrest me. I hit the return to home button setting things in motion and apologised for my transgression. He waited until the Mavic returned then told me to leave the area immediately. I did as he said but I don't believe he had the authority to move me from a public road, especially as there were at least a dozen camper vans parked in the lane nearby. Anyway I did manage to get a few shots...

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I could be wrong, but I doubt there’s a law in England prohibiting flight over National Trust land. Taking off from/landing on is another matter. You’ll get the same sort of hassle from National Parks rangers here in Oz. Many local council rangers see themselves as the arbiters of aviation law also.

 

[Jaspar]

Maybe I should have known better, but I was an Aussie traveling in Britain with my trusty M2P and wanted to get a shot of Stonehenge. I went out the preceding day to check it out and there were thousands of people everywhere. I wanted an early morning shot with long shadows so returned the next morning to the place I'd identified as a good launching spot, with a good view of any people or other problems.

I went at 5.30am and there was no-one around and no-one near the Henge so I launched the Mavic and did some shots. Now at no time did I fly over the stones, nor did I fly anywhere near people (there was no-one there except a couple of security guards). The weather was overcast so I had to forget about long shadows but about 10 minutes into the flight a car pulled up with a security guard inside. I made no attempt to hide what I was doing and he got out of his car and told me in no uncertain terms to get the drone away from over the stones.

I politely pointed out that at no time was I ever over, or near the stones and that I didn't fly over people. I also pointed out there were no signs prohibiting flights. He took exception to this and said the site was National Trust run and flying over National Trust land is illegal. At this point he threatened to arrest me. I hit the return to home button setting things in motion and apologised for my transgression. He waited until the Mavic returned then told me to leave the area immediately. I did as he said but I don't believe he had the authority to move me from a public road, especially as there were at least a dozen camper vans parked in the lane nearby. Anyway I did manage to get a few shots...

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This issue is not about the rules. It’s because of what Australia did to England in the cricket.

 

[sar104]

"Their land"? Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't this supposed to be the Nation's land i.e. our land?

No. The National Trust is a charity that owns the land, acquired by donation or purchase, with the intent of opening it for public use. That doesn't meant that they don't get to set rules of use.

 

[Wingwalker]

I live VERY close to Stonehenge and can tell you I've heard more than once of where men in Land Rovers turn up and confiscate drones from operators when they were in the middle of flying. The big difference however is that they are usually from the Military and not English Heritage (who are more often than not next to useless when it comes to good public relations). I've a pretty shrewd guess where Noosaguy was parked when he was operating, having gone there myself many times and know that he would have been away from the main road, but would "technically" have been on English Heritage land. However - the real thing here is that there are no defining boundaries, notices or any elements of information at all which tells you what part of land belongs to which. In addition there are also no signs (last time I was there) saying no drone flying allowed.

According to the English Heritage website, they do allow you to film at their locations providing you fill out an enquiry form, abide by their rules once approved, AND pay them a fee - even if you are filming for a hobby and therefore non-commercial. However, although I've never applied via their online form, I have requested on more than one occasion using their dedicated filming email address to talk with them about flying. Each time I've sent them a message it's been ignored and when I've tried to speak with someone on the phone I get absolutely no-where.

You may be interested to know however that I once heard English Heritage (allegedly) instruct their stewards to telephone a certain phone number which informs the men in Land Rovers to go up to site and remove your drone if they see one being flown. The fact that this was done at 5.30 in the morning now puts an entirely new spin on things. If they WERE from English Heritage (Not National Trust as they are a different organisation and a MUCH better bunch to deal with) then they would not have had the power to arrest you. The fact that this was even mentioned makes me wonder did you hear them correctly or are they going beyond their status to try and frighten you? If it is the latter then I would be most grateful if you would email me privately to [email protected] where I would like to discuss this further.

However, whilst I'm very jealous of the fantastic picture you took and really wish I could have done the same, it would only be fair of me to let everyone on here know that the Military do fly VERY low over the stones, so this could have been a completely different scenario. Especially if they were practising night manoeuvres which is something they do on occasion. Given their low altitude and speeds that they travel at, it can be a pretty scary sight to see - with or without a drone in the area. In short peoples, it's not worth it!

David.

 

[noosaguy]

In many (most) countries DJI Geofence map is worthless so people need to be careful. You'll be flying illegally in many places nationwide if you only check that.
In the UK you need to use proper airspace maps and NOTAMs for new/temporary/time limited areas. The only app that currently is correct is the CAA/NATs DroneAssist.
Other 3rd party apps such as Airmap are so inaccurate its as bad as DJIs and in no means help you stay legal.

(As an example look at the area in question here, DJI has no restrictions at all for miles. The reality is the OP is within a few hundred metres of the main military test flight airbase no fly zone.)

In hindsight I should have done more 'homework' on the location. I drove around the area the day before and noted there was a military base nearby that (I believed) was likely to have an airfield. Even so, the fact i'd never be higher than (say) 50m, and because at that time of the morning everything is still and quiet, I'd have heard any aircraft long before it being an issue. Even in free to fly zones at home, if I hear an aircraft in the vicinity, I reduce altitude to a point where there is zero threat (5-10m) and wait it out. If it's a chopper and low I put my Mavic on the ground immediately. I might have broken the 'no-fly zone' rules that day unintentionally, but I'm an old bloke now and extremely conservative in my actions. I have flown in suspect areas (new to me) where GO4 doesn't alert me to problems in the past but NEVER get beyond 30-40 metres and I always stay aware. I'm not a loose canon in that respect.

 

[noosaguy]

Just curious: did you talk to anyone in the visitor center about what you wanted to do and what restrictions they had in place?

No, it was 5.30am.

 

[noosaguy]

In addition there are also no signs (last time I was there) saying no drone flying allowed.

However, whilst I'm very jealous of the fantastic picture you took and really wish I could have done the same, it would only be fair of me to let everyone on here know that the Military do fly VERY low over the stones, so this could have been a completely different scenario. Especially if they were practising night manoeuvres which is something they do on occasion. Given their low altitude and speeds that they travel at, it can be a pretty scary sight to see - with or without a drone in the area. In short peoples, it's not worth it!
David.

Thanks David, firstly I was there about 5 weeks ago (I'm home in Aus now) and the dirt road you refer to is fenced on both sides so I naturally 'assumed' it was a public road for use by farm machinery (just like thousands of other roads in Britain). There were no signs at all stating the land was EH or NT or anything at all for that matter. I might be wrong though.

Secondly, I was aware of the military base and did assume it would have an airfield but the DJI Go4 app gave me the clear to fly message with no warning other than compass calibration (which I had to do for some reason each time I used the M2P). Still I was very low (50m or less) and I'd be very surprised if any aircraft did passes over the stones at 50m. Now that would be irresponsible to do that at any speed. I did take a punt on the fact that what I was doing was 'legal' but I did everything with extreme care. The security guard was quite aggressive at first but (I'm guessing) when he saw my age and the fact that I spoke to him respectfully and followed his directions he cooled somewhat. I still question his right to ask me to leave the area but discretion is the better part of valour)

 

[gnirtS]

Ive not yet visited a country where Go4 was suitable for judging whether its legal to fly or not. In the UKs case you need DroneAssist currently.
Boscombe is a main test airfield so perfectly possible for night time operations and low level ops within and outside the ATZ.
If the tests are doing 500kts which is perfectly there close to the training ranges you wouldnt hear it first!
Often in the UK you need to be a minimum altitude of 50m to allow the legal distance from people, property and anything else you'll fly over.

 

[noosaguy]

Ive not yet visited a country where Go4 was suitable for judging whether its legal to fly or not. In the UKs case you need DroneAssist currently.
Boscombe is a main test airfield so perfectly possible for night time operations and low level ops within and outside the ATZ.
If the tests are doing 500kts which is perfectly there close to the training ranges you wouldnt hear it first!
Often in the UK you need to be a minimum altitude of 50m to allow the legal distance from people, property and anything else you'll fly over.

Cheers. I did search and download an Ap that I believed to alert to no-fly zones but it was useless. I don't recall what it was called and I've deleted it. Secondly, all I flew over was a field and a fence. I never got within 20m or so of the stones and there were only 2 security people that I could see and they were on the opposite side. I didn't fly over people and I was way below the ceiling that any aircraft would fly at.

 

[jacksamspike]

Maybe I should have known better, but I was an Aussie traveling in Britain with my trusty M2P and wanted to get a shot of Stonehenge. I went out the preceding day to check it out and there were thousands of people everywhere. I wanted an early morning shot with long shadows so returned the next morning to the place I'd identified as a good launching spot, with a good view of any people or other problems.

I went at 5.30am and there was no-one around and no-one near the Henge so I launched the Mavic and did some shots. Now at no time did I fly over the stones, nor did I fly anywhere near people (there was no-one there except a couple of security guards). The weather was overcast so I had to forget about long shadows but about 10 minutes into the flight a car pulled up with a security guard inside. I made no attempt to hide what I was doing and he got out of his car and told me in no uncertain terms to get the drone away from over the stones.

I politely pointed out that at no time was I ever over, or near the stones and that I didn't fly over people. I also pointed out there were no signs prohibiting flights. He took exception to this and said the site was National Trust run and flying over National Trust land is illegal. At this point he threatened to arrest me. I hit the return to home button setting things in motion and apologised for my transgression. He waited until the Mavic returned then told me to leave the area immediately. I did as he said but I don't believe he had the authority to move me from a public road, especially as there were at least a dozen camper vans parked in the lane nearby. Anyway I did manage to get a few shots...

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That's

Cheers! I was a little concerned that what I was doing might not be completely kosher so I trod carefully. I didn't want to do something really stupid just in case. There were no signs to discourage flying and I was responsible enough to do it at a time of day that was no threat to anyone or anything. I deliberately didn't want to go over the top of the stones and my goal was to get a couple of images. I had no time to do anything but a few exposures because the guy was on me in a very short space of time. he wasn't rude to me either, just forceful and I certainly wasn't rude to him.

 

[jacksamspike]

That's what happen when some people get a little bit of power,they go power made.

 

[GadgetGuy]

I found this - Drone filming Most of the requirements seem doable, especially for a pro. Probably will cost a few bob for the license and insurance, but the "risk assessment" bit needs further clarification.

"We do not permit unscheduled drone flights on or over EnglishHeritage Trust properties."
He merely forgot to put it on their calendar!

 

[Herbie D]

More to the point there are also numerous airfields including a military base, if you look at the CAA Drone portal screen grab attached you will see that you shouldn't have flown their irrespective of the national trust rules as you're right on the edge of a danger area. You might want to download the CAA Drone Assist app, it will tell you where ever you are if there are any restrictions. Enjoy your visit.

Hi.

I was just looking for this reply. There is a military post to the south. The guards quoted the wrong rules but in a way were right that you couldn’t fly there.
Still couldn’t threaten you with arrest.
You tried as you took others into account by trying to fly at that time of day.
I had a poor mans view but was in the middle of the day when I was there.
I was tempted to talk to the military to see if I could fly in their airspace but ran out of time. Not sure if it would have worked anyway.
Very nice shot. It’s why we have drones.

 

[gnirtS]

Hi.

I was just looking for this reply. There is a military post to the south. The guards quoted the wrong rules but in a way were right that you couldn’t fly there.
Still couldn’t threaten you with arrest.
You tried as you took others into account by trying to fly at that time of day.
I had a poor mans view but was in the middle of the day when I was there.
I was tempted to talk to the military to see if I could fly in their airspace but ran out of time. Not sure if it would have worked anyway.
Very nice shot. It’s why we have drones.

He was close to but not in the no fly zone. So airspace wise he was fine to fly there.