Almost Arrested

[noosaguy]

He was close to but not in the no fly zone. So airspace wise he was fine to fly there.

Thanks, I didn't get any warnings (except for the prick in the uniform)

 

[gnirtS]

Thanks, I didn't get any warnings (except for the prick in the uniform)

Well you wont if you're using DJI as it doesnt have a clue about the UK flight restrictions. You HAVE to be checking on the DroneAssist app. Currently it seems to be the only one with accurate information and latest NOTAM. Where you flew is about 300m away from a permanent no fly zone so tracking a bit to the east (or north with larkhill) will put you into that zone bt you wont get any warnings as the DJI software has no idea they exist. Then you'd have gone from doing nothing illegal into doing something very illegal with a likely large fine in the space of a field!


Im still interested though, did the security goon actually say arrest or threaten detention in any way at all?

 

[swings16]

I would not have flown but i don't see the harm...i have had too many experiences with outraged citizens and wanna be cops

I detailed a serious run in with a local man in the Catskills a month ago

INVADING HIS PROPERTY...i was 400 feet in the air filming a HUGE Moon hanging in the sky

Smoke was coming out of his ears and if i said the wrong thing i would have needed Dental work

People lose their minds when they see one !

I don't know what it is but i no longer fly within an area that has housing and PEOPLE

I fly in secluded areas and constantly on ALERT mode

Do You guys and gals have any experience with official looking ....FAA Licensed DRONE PILOT Vests ?

I am thinking of picking one up..BUT i see the possibility of even MORE scrutiny...

Any experience with these /

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Thanks All...Martin NYC

 

[noosaguy]

Im still interested though, did the security goon actually say arrest or threaten detention in any way at all?

Im still interested though, did the security goon actually say arrest or threaten detention in any way at all?

Yes, when he told me to get my drone from over the stones and out of the air, i (politely) mentioned that I hadn't flown over the stones or flown over people. He then told me that the field was NT owned and flying over it was illegal. He then said "I could arrest you."

 

[noosaguy]

People lose their minds when they see one !

I don't know what it is but i no longer fly within an area that has housing and PEOPLE

I fly in secluded areas and constantly on ALERT mode

Thanks All...Martin NYC

The trouble is, that from a photography standpoint, a lot of interesting stuff is around people. Having said that I have always adopted a policy of not flying intentionally over people. In my early days on this forum I argued strongly, and was shot down in flames by many, that a drone after a mishap is a lethal object. If a M2P fell on someone from even 100 feet, they'd be very luck to survive. And, if your drone fell out of the sky and hit a car causing a serious accident I hate to think of the consequences.

 

[gnirtS]

Yes, when he told me to get my drone from over the stones and out of the air, i (politely) mentioned that I hadn't flown over the stones or flown over people. He then told me that the field was NT owned and flying over it was illegal. He then said "I could arrest you."

If that's the case i'd be looking at putting in a formal complaint. He has no powers of arrest and no right to threaten it.

 

[deleted member 877]

If that's the case i'd be looking at putting in a formal complaint. He has no powers of arrest and no right to threaten it.

Or just let it go which is what it seems the O.P. has already done. A formal complaint would go straight in the bin I reckon.

 

[noosaguy]

If that's the case i'd be looking at putting in a formal complaint. He has no powers of arrest and no right to threaten it.

Thanks for the reply but to be honest, I'm of an age that I've realised going in to unwinnable battles is futile. If I complain, that's my side of the story... what do you think the security guards side of the story might be. Call me cynical if you like but I believe pragmatic is closer to it.

 

[gnirtS]

Im more annoyed by the fact this guy has probably done the same to other people preventing them from legally flying and making threats that aren't legal.
I also suspect national trust secretly want things like this to happen as it suits their no-drone policy regardless of the legality. They're a truly vile organisation for several reasons.

If i lived nearer id be tempted to do quite a few (legal) flights around there just to draw a response out of curiosity.

 

[noosaguy]

Im more annoyed by the fact this guy has probably done the same to other people preventing them from legally flying and making threats that aren't legal.
I also suspect national trust secretly want things like this to happen as it suits their no-drone policy regardless of the legality. They're a truly vile organisation for several reasons.

If i lived nearer id be tempted to do quite a few (legal) flights around there just to draw a response out of curiosity.

The irony is that before we left Australia on our 7 week drive around the Old Dart, we coughed up the AUD$220 to join the British National Trust

 

[Wingwalker]

Thanks David, firstly I was there about 5 weeks ago (I'm home in Aus now) and the dirt road you refer to is fenced on both sides so I naturally 'assumed' it was a public road for use by farm machinery (just like thousands of other roads in Britain). There were no signs at all stating the land was EH or NT or anything at all for that matter. I might be wrong though.

Secondly, I was aware of the military base and did assume it would have an airfield but the DJI Go4 app gave me the clear to fly message with no warning other than compass calibration (which I had to do for some reason each time I used the M2P). Still I was very low (50m or less) and I'd be very surprised if any aircraft did passes over the stones at 50m. Now that would be irresponsible to do that at any speed. I did take a punt on the fact that what I was doing was 'legal' but I did everything with extreme care. The security guard was quite aggressive at first but (I'm guessing) when he saw my age and the fact that I spoke to him respectfully and followed his directions he cooled somewhat. I still question his right to ask me to leave the area but discretion is the better part of valour)

Quick question... Did the security guard actually say he would be the one who would arrest you had you not complied with him - or did he say he would get you arrested?

 

[CelticShadows]

National Trust is like the Scottish National Trust, you can't photograph their property without signing a waiver for non-commercial usage and for commercial usage you'll require filming permission (with the liability insurance, permits/licences required by law). This also is applicable to English Heritage. Almost all the Trust/Heritage properties in the UK have strict photography and filming policies, and they do enforce them. It's a pain getting permission to work with the properties, but if you work with them and play by the rules they can be helpful and accommodating as I've worked with several over the years for various projects. The reasons vary property to property, but mostly it's down to safety, preservation and security.

As to arresting a person, the security guard is allowed to make a citizens arrest or call the police. As to what they can prosecute you with is, at the minimum, is Breach of the Peace but no doubt they're think of more charges if you annoy them too much. Police tend to get antsy around there because there's a lot of military sites in the area.

 

[Aaron24]

Your M2 has exceptional range. My advice next time in this or a similar instance is to park around 1km or 2k away and then take flight to obtain the footage you want. By the time they see it in the air, and then try and figure out where you are, you have a chance to fly it back to the home point and have it packed away before they have a fix on you, if in fact they even manage to.

 

[BigAl07]

Quick question... Did the security guard actually say he would be the one who would arrest you had you not complied with him - or did he say he would get you arrested?

Per his very own words ( I added bold for emphasis):

Yes, when he told me to get my drone from over the stones and out of the air, i (politely) mentioned that I hadn't flown over the stones or flown over people. He then told me that the field was NT owned and flying over it was illegal. He then said "I could arrest you."

 

[BigAl07]

Your M2 has exceptional range. My advice next time in this or a similar instance is to park around 1km or 2k away and then take flight to obtain the footage you want. By the time they see it in the air, and then try and figure out where you are, you have a chance to fly it back to the home point and have it packed away before they have a fix on you, if in fact they even manage to.

How would you address Line Of Sight and See&Avoid processes?

 

[swings16]

I was recently threatened with arrest last week ..OVER A PARKING SPOT

I don't know if it was a bluff OR a wanna be...or a security guard...may very well have been a cop

he asked me (TOLD ME) "do you want me to put the cuffs on you ?"

I reacted in a bad way...i lost control and got ALMOST into a fist fight

Something kicked in...i became aware of my situation and i backed down

sadly it took a few days for me to let go of the whole mess

I know i did the right thing but somehow there is still remnants of being MACHO

Ready to fight...i am coming up on being 68..it would have been a KO in seconds

I have to work on that...let sheist GO...easier said...tough (for me) to give it up...let it GO

 

[gnirtS]

Your M2 has exceptional range. My advice next time in this or a similar instance is to park around 1km or 2k away and then take flight to obtain the footage you want. By the time they see it in the air, and then try and figure out where you are, you have a chance to fly it back to the home point and have it packed away before they have a fix on you, if in fact they even manage to.

So you're suggesting that the OP who was in this instance perfectly legal now goes and performs an illegal flight that DOES break laws and risk legitimate arrest just to get the footage ? Really?!

 

[gnirtS]

National Trust is like the Scottish National Trust, you can't photograph their property without signing a waiver for non-commercial usage and for commercial usage you'll require filming permission (with the liability insurance, permits/licences required by law). This also is applicable to English Heritage. Almost all the Trust/Heritage properties in the UK have strict photography and filming policies, and they do enforce them. It's a pain getting permission to work with the properties, but if you work with them and play by the rules they can be helpful and accommodating as I've worked with several over the years for various projects. The reasons vary property to property, but mostly it's down to safety, preservation and security.

As to arresting a person, the security guard is allowed to make a citizens arrest or call the police. As to what they can prosecute you with is, at the minimum, is Breach of the Peace but no doubt they're think of more charges if you annoy them too much. Police tend to get antsy around there because there's a lot of military sites in the area.

Actually not correct - their rules apply from/on their property and do NOT extend to the airspace above it which has been confirmed by the CAA.
If you're not on their property operating the drone theres nothing they can do.
They also lost the battle claiming you couldnt take photos of their property from *public* property as well. They tried to sue anyone with a picture of Whitby Abby on flickr even taken from the town.

They're an utterly abhorrent organisation. Other than their specialised subject of taking over car parks, increasing the price and doing nothing to enhance the area they are also incredibly anti photography in general.
They've managed to get given huge chunks of the UKs natural landscape, done nothing to it but now say you cant sell photos of a 20 million year old cliff because they want to make money from it instead.
Myself and others have found them anything but accommodating, friendly or helpful. Obstructive and money orientated more like.
They also make claims about byelaws preventing overflight when there is nothing of the sort in existence so are deliberately misleading. Of course, they dont disclose the actual laws without FOIA requests.

There is no scope for prosecuting the OP for anything. Its not breach of the peace. If anything offence has been committed its the security guard for the same offence. The police wont act.

Ultimately if the OP is flying from non NT land and obeying the CAP for a UAV hes breaking no law even if he is over "their" field. Just because NT dont like it doesn't make it any less true.

NT have power to control what you do if you're on or operating from their property. Nothing more.


For reference their byelaws are here:-

https://nt.global.ssl.fastly.net/documents/the-national-trust-byelaws-1965.pdf

Yes, 1965. Ive just had it confirmed directly the byelaws have NOT changed since 1965.

Hawking 17. No unauthorised person shall on Trust Property sell or offer or expose for sale any commodity, or article or for the purpose of trade or reward take any photograph.

Note: In this Byelaw “conveyance” includes any air, land or watercraft vehicle or machine other than wheelchairs and perambulators. Subparagraphs (i) and (ii) of paragraph (a) shall have no application to pedal cycles.

Is the only line in it that could even conceivably be used to apply to a drone. And that applies to ON their land not above. There are no byelaws what-so-ever for overflight.

 

[musicjeremy]

I think some folks are missing the bigger picture. What OP did might be legal, it might not, I don't really care and I don't intend to pass judgement on the legality of it.

For those of us who are regulars on this forum, there are many, many posts from users who despite their best efforts encountered a situation where they lost control of their drone while in a flight. Regardless of whether they were at fault or if it was a software bug, weather, magnetic interference, etc. The point of that observation is that our drones can malfunction at any time and we can also make mistakes as operators at any time. Heck, someone can come up to you, grab the drone control from your hands, and fly it into one of the rocks.

In a site as well-known and precious as Stonehenge, do you really want to be the guy associated with the flying robot in the sky, regardless of legality?

Put another way, when you ask "what could go wrong" there are some very bad potential outcomes indeed. To me, the risk to yourself and to the site seems absolutely not worth it.

 

[Dronescape Imagery]

Maybe I should have known better, but I was an Aussie traveling in Britain with my trusty M2P and wanted to get a shot of Stonehenge. I went out the preceding day to check it out and there were thousands of people everywhere. I wanted an early morning shot with long shadows so returned the next morning to the place I'd identified as a good launching spot, with a good view of any people or other problems.

I went at 5.30am and there was no-one around and no-one near the Henge so I launched the Mavic and did some shots. Now at no time did I fly over the stones, nor did I fly anywhere near people (there was no-one there except a couple of security guards). The weather was overcast so I had to forget about long shadows but about 10 minutes into the flight a car pulled up with a security guard inside. I made no attempt to hide what I was doing and he got out of his car and told me in no uncertain terms to get the drone away from over the stones.

I politely pointed out that at no time was I ever over, or near the stones and that I didn't fly over people. I also pointed out there were no signs prohibiting flights. He took exception to this and said the site was National Trust run and flying over National Trust land is illegal. At this point he threatened to arrest me. I hit the return to home button setting things in motion and apologised for my transgression. He waited until the Mavic returned then told me to leave the area immediately. I did as he said but I don't believe he had the authority to move me from a public road, especially as there were at least a dozen camper vans parked in the lane nearby. Anyway I did manage to get a few shots...

View attachment 79047View attachment 79049

Wait! I thought Clark W. Griswold knocked over all those stones 30+ years ago when he went on his European vacation.