Almost Arrested

[charlas]

Hi Charlas love the video especially over the town what drone you have. Braz

That was the air, have m2p now as well.

 

[gnirtS]

Yeah I've had the same issue, I had a security fella tell me I wasn't allowed to fly over trust land in Wales, when I pointed out I took off from public land, and the airspace above the ruins were nothing to do with the trust I was warned that I would get a visit from the police, and to give him my details, I kindly pointed out I wasn't on their 'private' property, he was out of his area of influence, and if he wanted my details to call the police and I'll wait.

To be fair that bit is correct but there is a LOT in the video you linked that does actually break the law. Specifically the built up area, distance from uninvolved people and property and so on.
Might want to be a bit careful posting that on the internet given people can and have been prosecuted for it.

 

[charlas]

Been up ages now and yeah my 'manners' in flying are now a fair bit better than they were when I first started, so wasn't excusing any transgressions I may have committed, just saying that you can and should stand your ground when people say you can't fly somewhere that your perfectly entitled too.

 

[STUFF2C]

It's your picture, but there are much better ones on the internet. I try to only get unique pictures not available anywhere else

 

[braz]

That was the air, have m2p now as well.

..
I wouldn't be confident enough to fly like you id'e guess you fly watching through the drone as i look up and watch it guess its experience have only flown 4 times..

 

[charlas]

..
I wouldn't be confident enough to fly like you id'e guess you fly watching through the drone as i look up and watch it guess its experience have only flown 4 times..

Actually, if memory serves me, all the footage the bird was in VLOS

 

[equine0128]

He can't arrest you and has no power to. From the description you also broke no law.

Unfortunately you came across national trust - an utterly vile organisation particularly in their policy to photography, photographers rights, drones and so on.

National trust bans all drone use *from their land*. That means you cannot take off, land or operate from it. Although they claim otherwise and the rent-a-mob security claim otherwise they cannot prevent overflight. They make this claim on their website as well but it simply isnt legally correct or valid and this has been confirmed by the CAA previously.

They claim "by laws" but when queried by FOIA the only bylaw yielded operation of model aircraft from their property in a law dating back to the 60s. With a maximum sanction of £20.
So the worst that could happen is (i) they ask you to leave their land and in theory issue a £20 fine.

They have no power of arrest and absolutely no power to do anything at all not on their property and to do so is probably illegal.

Are you *sure* you were on public land and not national trust land? This horrific organisation specialises in buying up vast areas of land in the UK including most of its coastline so its not always clear.
They also own car parks.
If you are certain you weren't on their land its worth lodging a complaint (although NT will ignore it, they want people to think overflight is illegal). If it was a private security guard they have an agency watchdog to complain to.

Provided you were obeying all the rules of the air navigation order there is absolutely nothing illegal about overflight. And in any case thats a police matter NOT a security guard matter.
Did he actually use the word arrest? If so that is a big overreach and id possibly be thinking of putting a police complaint in there - civilians going around pretending to have powers of arrest in public places is frowned upon....

A few things to be aware of - the ANO makes it sometimes difficult to fly from public roads due to the 50m from people and property at all times even during takeoff and landing.
Be a little careful flying around that area as you're very close to the Boscombe restricted flight zone which begins a few hundred metres to the east of Stonehenge.
I assume youre using the NATs drone assist app which is the *only* app with accurate UK no fly zones currently (definitely not DJIs built in!). See attached screenshot to how close it is to the ATZ
View attachment 79077

So in summary:
(i) If you were on public land (check this...) the rent-a-mob has no authority to move you on from the area. He also has no power to arrest on public OR EVEN HIS OWN private land. None at all. Claiming to do so is an offence.
(ii) National trust is an abhorrent body.
(iii) National trust cannot deny overflight of lands provided the ANO is followed despite their claims
(iv) National trust is an abhorrent body
(v) If there were any violations of the ANO (distance from the public, no fly zones etc) then thats a matter for the police and the rent-a-mob guy has no authority what-so-ever over it. If he claims thats been violated he has to alert the police and cant do anything himself.
(vi) National trust is an abhorrent body

You'll come across the NT heavies a lot in the UK due to overreach and the way they've somehow managed to acquire large areas of the UK national parks and coastlines.

Ultimately to operate the drone (OR a camera commercially!) with them you just need to be aware of where you are regarding their land boundaries, the air navigation order drone rules and be polite but firm if the heavy mob turn up. Id suggest recording the exchange. They try to work by intimidation and rely on people not knowing the actual laws.
IF you are unsure where their land is ask the security politely where their land boundary ends and move just outside that area.View attachment 79080

Shows NT claims around the area so you can see where you can fly.

I will be coming to the UK in a few weeks and was hoping to get some arial footage of Stonehenge, where or how do people do this. Is there a website that shows public land or an app. I am very disappointed that the NT is so stingey with their properties. Thanks!

 

[gnirtS]

Ive linked to the NT land website in this thread. Follow the history of our places with Land Map


You also need NATs DroneAssist so see restricted airspace:

Safety Apps - Dronesafe

Drone Assist Drone Assist is the drone safety app powered by Altitude Angel. It provides an interactive map of the sky and is used by general aviation, balloon pilots, and other airspace users. It allows you to see areas to avoid or in which extreme caution should be exercised, as well as...

dronesafe.uk

Make sure you have air traffic zones, TFRs and other relevant filters turned on.


That and familiarise yourself with the laws. Particularly the 50m from people and property, 150m and not overhead congested areas and *unaided visual line of sight* which currently is interpreted as 500m or so.

Drone code - Dronesafe

dronesafe.uk

 

[noosaguy]

Jets dont for starters in the UK. That simply isnt allowed. Helicopters can do so in approved areas and ranges of which that area is not.
The operational low level areas are (i) all on charts and (ii) notified ahead of time.

They certainly dont do it for fun at 5.30am over tourist attractions.

The area is perfectly legal to fly airspace wise. It is not a restricted area, a low level training area operational danger area. Its farmers fields. Nothing more.

You have no understanding about how UK airspace works and is used.

I know very little about airspace in that regard but common sense told me that being at low altitude wouldn't be an issue. There is just no way a jet (or helicopter) was going to fly over at 6-am at very low altitude. I considered that risk before launching and discarded it.

 

[noosaguy]

Just thinking aloud ... If there are no vehicles in the area that will be within 50m of the UAV as it ascends then possibly, just possibly ok but I would hate to argue that in a court of law. Given that you have to land somewhere and your launch site is the only place not under NT or EH control how do you manage traffic to ensure 50m separation? And if you declare an emergency because the battery is running out that is something you should have foreseen when you chose the public road as the only launch and landing site! I think, unless you can find a private launch site within line of sight, you are screwed

Perhaps you're right because there was a van parked within 50m of where I launched. They were asleep inside because it was shut up. Some of you seem to imply that I'm not conscious of safety. That isn't so, I'm patently aware of potential harm or damage to property and would never fly in circumstances that posed risk. If you'd been with me on that morning you would understand that what I did posed no risk to anyone or anything.

 

[noosaguy]

I will be coming to the UK in a few weeks and was hoping to get some arial footage of Stonehenge, where or how do people do this. Is there a website that shows public land or an app. I am very disappointed that the NT is so stingey with their properties. Thanks!

If you PM me i can point you in the right direction but the location I would use if I did it again is out of sight of the stones.

 

[noosaguy]

Looking on the map of NT lands that track *is* national trust land so you were operating against their rules (byelaws)

View attachment 79384


So in this instance the security guard WAS entitled to ask you to move. However,he is NOT entitled or legally allowed to threaten arrest. You've committed no offence legally, a breach of byelaws maximum allows them to ask you to leave the property.

FWIW the other road just up from there is NOT NT land so is perfectly legal to fly from provided you can maintain the minimum 50m from people and property (ie cars using the road).

It's interesting to note that he didn't say I was on NT land. he pointed to the field beyond the fence (where the Henge is located) and said that I can't fly over that. He did however ask/tell me to leave the area, which i thought at the time was a bit rich. Seems he might have been within his rights if what you say is correct.

 

[noosaguy]

I've just looked at ownership. Stonehenge is owned by the Crown and is administered on their behalf by English Heritage. The National Trust owns most of the surrounding land. NT have a land ownership map and this is a screenshot of the Stonehenge area. The orange and purple areas are NT land, the triangle in the centre is the English Heritage land surrounding the monument. The NT land is mainly farmed by leaseholders so you won't see cafes, turnstiles, gift shops or tour guides but they are the ones to give you permission to fly And taking off from the side of public roads is another no-no. All very dispiriting.

EDIT: Whoops! just seen gnirtS's post on the same subject. My map's prettier!

View attachment 79396

I'm not disputing what you say but I'd ask the question, why would they leave a lane that disects their land and is within a couple of hundred metres of the Stones. open to the public? It makes no sense to me anyway.

 

[gnirtS]

I know very little about airspace in that regard but common sense told me that being at low altitude wouldn't be an issue. There is just no way a jet (or helicopter) was going to fly over at 6-am at very low altitude. I considered that risk before launching and discarded it.

That isnt actually true located right next to Boscombe and the Salisbury training area. It can happen and they operate 24/7 when required.
If you operate a drone you do need to know enough about airspace to know where restrictions are and how to stay out of them. Hence the apps to help (easier than charts and manual NOTAM checking).

 

[noosaguy]

That isnt actually true located right next to Boscombe and the Salisbury training area. It can happen and they operate 24/7 when required.
If you operate a drone you do need to know enough about airspace to know where restrictions are and how to stay out of them. Hence the apps to help (easier than charts and manual NOTAM checking).

I think yours is the only post on this thread that claims the airspace to be restricted. From my memory the base was a military base nearby (I checked it out as much as I could) and even though I assumed they would have an airfield of some description, not the type that would have jet aircraft operating frequently, if at all. All things considered, I'll say it again, I don't believe I endangered anyone or anything in what I did.

 

[noosaguy]

Yeah I've had the same issue, I had a security fella tell me I wasn't allowed to fly over trust land in Wales, when I pointed out I took off from public land, and the airspace above the ruins were nothing to do with the trust I was warned that I would get a visit from the police, and to give him my details, I kindly pointed out I wasn't on their 'private' property, he was out of his area of influence, and if he wanted my details to call the police and I'll wait.

He mumbled away, saying he'd be back, I finished my flight, landed, packed up, and wandered down, paid my fee to enter and took some video and pics from inside, and asked on the way out if I should await the police, was told to just leave, so I did. Bunch of muppet the lot of em, pitty so many of the nice historic stuff is controlled by them.

Early footage/flying but here it is.

You see Charlas, okay it's nice footage but to me it seems you've broken many rules in obtaining this footage, flying over people, roads, vehicles etc. I consider this to be far more dangerous than anything I did. I'm not having a go at you here, I'm simply saying that if my drone fell out of the sky that morning the worst it could have done was bend a few blades of grass. In the video you posted, in the same situation someone could easily have been killed.

 

[Thomas B]

Gentlemen, I understand all that both sides of this discussion have said.
Let’s get back on topic please.

 

[gnirtS]

I think yours is the only post on this thread that claims the airspace to be restricted.

Ive *twice* posted a screen shot from the official NATs app showing clearing the air traffic zones and restricted airspace around the area.
As ive said, stonehenge and the fields themselves arent in it but the restrictions start a few hundred metres to the east and to the north which if unaware, you can easily find yourself violating.

The air traffic zone flight restrictions for Boscombe and the army parachute training area.




The second one is with the danger areas selected - you can see the area you flew in inside that. Its unlikely the danger area was activated at the time of the flight but it could have been - they do night ops. If its activated you cant fly there.

Heres a clip of the restricted airspace description for D125:

Vertical Limits:
Upper Limit: Up to ALT 50000 0615-2359 (0515-2300).
Upper Limit: Up to ALT 3000 (OCNL notified up to ALT 50000) 2359-0615 (2300-0515).

Activity: Live Firing / Bombing / Para Dropping / Demolition / Unmanned Aircraft Systems (VLOS/BVLOS).

Service: DACS: Salisbury Operations on 122.750 MHz when open; other times DAAIS via ATIS on 130.150 MHz or Tel: 01980-674739.

Hours: H24

Active from 0615, sometimes 24H. Activities include live firing, bombing, para dropping, unmanned vehicle activities. Its also an Apache helicopter training area where they'll be at 20-30ft hiding behind hills and trees at times.

The point in making is failing to check the airspace restrictions can leave you in a lot of trouble legally. You were likely that flight (Larkhill permitting) but it was purely luck not judgement. Even if operating outside of, but close to restricted zones you need to be very aware in case of a flyaway.

You really do need to check airspace restrictions and no fly zones from official sources before flying a drone, especially in an area you're unfamiliar with. This isnt me making a claim, its the official data from the official sources using their official application for obtaining it.

As i said, it looks like you were (accidentally) outside a flight restriction zone by a few hundred metres if Larkhill wasnt active. It looks like you were on NT land (which is easy to do, its not signed). That does mean the guard is entitled to ask you to leave. However it doesnt mean hes entitled to threaten arrest or make false claims about flying over fields.

Just be careful thats all - in unfamiliar areas most people have no idea what is/isnt around and restricted. You dont always know if theres an airfield, a parachute area, a military exercise area and so on.

 

[Marcius]

Well done buddy

 

[Derek Elliott]

Maybe I should have known better, but I was an Aussie traveling in Britain with my trusty M2P and wanted to get a shot of Stonehenge. I went out the preceding day to check it out and there were thousands of people everywhere. I wanted an early morning shot with long shadows so returned the next morning to the place I'd identified as a good launching spot, with a good view of any people or other problems.

I went at 5.30am and there was no-one around and no-one near the Henge so I launched the Mavic and did some shots. Now at no time did I fly over the stones, nor did I fly anywhere near people (there was no-one there except a couple of security guards). The weather was overcast so I had to forget about long shadows but about 10 minutes into the flight a car pulled up with a security guard inside. I made no attempt to hide what I was doing and he got out of his car and told me in no uncertain terms to get the drone away from over the stones.

I politely pointed out that at no time was I ever over, or near the stones and that I didn't fly over people. I also pointed out there were no signs prohibiting flights. He took exception to this and said the site was National Trust run and flying over National Trust land is illegal. At this point he threatened to arrest me. I hit the return to home button setting things in motion and apologised for my transgression. He waited until the Mavic returned then told me to leave the area immediately. I did as he said but I don't believe he had the authority to move me from a public road, especially as there were at least a dozen camper vans parked in the lane nearby. Anyway I did manage to get a few shots...

View attachment 79047View attachment 79049

Here is an article that appeared on this forum some time ago might find it is relevent to your problem
CAA confirmation that land owners cannot prevent you flying over their land