Almost Arrested

[4wd]

Is it illegal to fly over national trust property though???

No, but probably better to maintain a discrete distance.
If they come across any photo or video from your flight they may even challenge you.
Stock agencies (e.g. shutterstock) won't approve any photos from known NT locations.
Some of the others disregard this but bad things might still happen if a picture was a commercial success.

Reading the PDF linked earlier they seem to be deliberately misrepresenting what it says, I would read it as not being allowed to set up essentially a stall to take photos of visitors and sell them prints of their day out - which was more common in film days.

There was an incident locally where a commercial postcard photographer was challenged over a general view of Whitby which happened to have *their* abbey in the scene.
It's quite difficult to take a view of Whitby without it, since being on the cliff it dominates the town.
Completely unreasonable if not tyrannical approach which as lost them much support. See posts in this thread.

Photos of *their* sites are essentially free advertising bringing more visitors, but they don't see it that way as they want a cut out of any proceeds, or better monopolise and control sales of all imagery themselves

 

[4wd]

If a guy is employed as a security guard they have to have something to be security conscious about, you were just an opportunity for him to write something in his log! Your problem was that you were geographically too close and in his face effectively, in other words you gave him the opportunity to do his job. Answer: distance is your friend, ‘you’ didn’t need to be there, fly from further away and use your app. Fly in and rth from other directions and always still fly responsibley ie taking height and people into safe consideration.

At Stonehenge they will have a good idea where you are likely flying from - there is one obvious place where you can park within sight of the stones.
If you avoided that area and walk to a place they can't access with vehicles they aren't going to know where you are controlling from.

As stated overflying is not something they have any control of - especially from a discrete distance, but it would be very unwise to fly directly over such a honeypot location when it was open to visitors.

 

[Rogerlin]

I bet you got a bit of a nervous buzz when doing this, I know I would, and the slightly more `risky` shots/footage are really great to look back on.

You obviously observed good practice, but I wonder if it would have bee possible to take off from a farther, more secluded distance and fly over the area, a zoom would be good for that, nice phot though!!

 

[RobertJC]

Is it illegal to fly over national trust property though???

Apparently not CAA has made this clear:

UAVEnquiries <[email protected]>
11:53 (4 hours ago)

Dear Sir

Thank you for your email

They do not own the airspace and if you abide by the ANO and other airspace restrictions in that area e.g. NOTAMs then you may operate.

Thank you,

Thomas Guest
UAV Services
Civil Aviation Authority
Tel: 0330 022 1908
Follow us on Twitter: @UK_CAA

From: Ian [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 13 June 2018 16:48
To: InfoServices <[email protected]>
Subject: Question on the prohibition of consumer drones over private land
Hello

I am after advice concerning private hobbyist flying of a consumer drone (Mavic Pro) which is around 750 grams and does have a camera.

As I understand the Air Navigation Order 2016, specifically ‘Article 95 – Small unmanned surveillance aircraft’, the main rules can be simply summarised as:

1. Stay at least 150 metres horizontally away from any congested built up area, or crowded area with more than 1,000 persons (implying I cannot fly over such an area).

2. Stay at least a 50 metre bubble away from any structure or person not under my control (implying I can fly over such land at an altitude of 50 metres or more).

3. Stay under 400 feet in altitude from take-off point.

4. Stay in Visual Line of Sight

5. Observe any permanent or temporary restrictions from NATS, which I do via their Drone Assist app.

It is the second point I wanted clarified.

My question is:
Can a landowner prohibit aerial flights over their property?
I understand they can prohibit ground-based activity, (ie take-off / landing / flight control) from their land, but can they prohibit me from simply flying over?

The CAA has implemented a 50 metre bubble rule to avoid privacy and harassment issues, so my understanding is that the CAA controls airspace, not the landowner, as long as I maintain an altitude of at least 50 metres.

Can you confirm?
Many thanks

 

[MAGA]

Thanks Big Al but I wasn't at all 'snarky', to the chap. I was extremely polite and obeyed every direction he gave. All i did was question his assertion that I'd flown directly over the stones and that I didn't see anything in the vicinity prohibiting 'SAFE' flights and I did that in a courteous and polite manner.

I know you where not snarky , when you post something like this there will always be someone who assumes you are a jerk or snarky or whatever , drives me nuts

 

[gnirtS]

If you're coming from Oz it's cheaper to join the Oz national trust. They have a reciprocal arrangement with the UK organisation so access is free.

If you insist on joining them in the uk (and if you're a photographer and/or drone user id strongly recommend people dont due to their policies) then the Scottish trust is cheaper, anyone can join and allows the same nationwide access.

 

[gnirtS]

Is it illegal to fly over national trust property though???

No its not. NT property is no different to any other private property.
They have no extra protections or byelaws regarding it.

 

[gnirtS]

British jets fly as low as 50ft in some scenarios, and so do the helicopters.

Jets dont for starters in the UK. That simply isnt allowed. Helicopters can do so in approved areas and ranges of which that area is not.
The operational low level areas are (i) all on charts and (ii) notified ahead of time.

They certainly dont do it for fun at 5.30am over tourist attractions.

The area is perfectly legal to fly airspace wise. It is not a restricted area, a low level training area operational danger area. Its farmers fields. Nothing more.

You have no understanding about how UK airspace works and is used.

 

[gnirtS]

And we wonder why it is becoming more and more difficult to find places to fly.
The most important thing the drone flyer has missed is that virtually the whole of Salibury plain is military controlled land, so you might think you are clever by saying that to a couple of blokes trying to do their job by quoting the law at them, lets see how you feel when an attack helicopter shoots your drone down and they arrest you for espionage.
You will have more than a couple of ordinary working people to deal with.
I vote that this person deserves a place at Mr.t's school for fools.

( Mod Removed NAme Calling ) You have no idea how this works.

(i) Nowhere in that area is military controlled land. Its farms, fields and tourist attractions. He is nowhere near the salisbury plain danger area. He is completely allowed to be there and fly there.

(ii) we dont fly attack helicopters around tourist areas with live weapons to shoot at things. Its not a video game.

(iii) We certainly dont fly armed attack helicopters in civilian airspace to shoot down legal drone flyers.

(iv) we dont shoot at people or objects acting legally

(v) even if someone is acting illegally we dont shoot them either. Because that is also illegal unless theres an immediate risk to life and because we cant.

(vi) we also dont charge people with espionage for flying legally over farmers fields. Theres not a lot of national security risk looking at cow from 50m.

There are flight restricted areas nationwide, some of which are for security reasons. And the OP is not in one of those. You dont seem to get that.

 

[gnirtS]

Answer: distance is your friend, ‘you’ didn’t need to be there, fly from further away and use your app. Fly in and rth from other directions and always still fly responsibley ie taking height and people into safe consideration.

The UK has VLOS rules which currently are legally interpreted as approximately 500m or so. Going further away than that he WOULD be operating illegally and would be subject to arrest, albeit NOT by a private security guard.

 

[gnirtS]

What are you talking about? I did what I could to check the legality of flying there including downloading an Ap that purported to define restricted flying zones (don't recall its name now cause I deleted it). It was next to useless. Also, Mavic Go4 gave me an 'All clear' to fly in that area.

One thing i would state again as its useful for everyone. Whatever country you're in you have to get the app or website for that country officially sanctioned by their aviation bodies.
3rd party apps like Airmap and others are grossly inaccurate is most countries and simply cant be relied upon. You need the countries official app. In the UK case, its DroneAssist. Always google the apps or website before travel.
Plus never rely on Go4 to say its safe to fly for the same reason. Its flight restrictions are very basic and far from comprehensive in any country ive ever flown in. It'll happily let you fly in an area that is illegal in reality.

 

[ed956]

You did well. i’m guessing the road was actually part of the national trust site or the security guard would not have been able to ask you to leave. It is illegal to fly on national trust land but taking off from non national trust land (provided there are no restriction) and flying over national trust land is not illegal as they cannot own the sky. I would be surprised if the area is a no fly zone due Salisbury plain military training area.

Maybe I should have known better, but I was an Aussie traveling in Britain with my trusty M2P and wanted to get a shot of Stonehenge. I went out the preceding day to check it out and there were thousands of people everywhere. I wanted an early morning shot with long shadows so returned the next morning to the place I'd identified as a good launching spot, with a good view of any people or other problems.

I went at 5.30am and there was no-one around and no-one near the Henge so I launched the Mavic and did some shots. Now at no time did I fly over the stones, nor did I fly anywhere near people (there was no-one there except a couple of security guards). The weather was overcast so I had to forget about long shadows but about 10 minutes into the flight a car pulled up with a security guard inside. I made no attempt to hide what I was doing and he got out of his car and told me in no uncertain terms to get the drone away from over the stones.

I politely pointed out that at no time was I ever over, or near the stones and that I didn't fly over people. I also pointed out there were no signs prohibiting flights. He took exception to this and said the site was National Trust run and flying over National Trust land is illegal. At this point he threatened to arrest me. I hit the return to home button setting things in motion and apologised for my transgression. He waited until the Mavic returned then told me to leave the area immediately. I did as he said but I don't believe he had the authority to move me from a public road, especially as there were at least a dozen camper vans parked in the lane nearby. Anyway I did manage to get a few shots...

View attachment 79047View attachment 79049

 

[gnirtS]

You did well. i’m guessing the road was actually part of the national trust site or the security guard would not have been able to ask you to leave. It is illegal to fly on national trust land but taking off from non national trust land (provided there are no restriction) and flying over national trust land is not illegal as they cannot own the sky. I would be surprised if the area is a no fly zone due Salisbury plain military training area.

He's not inside any of the nearby flight restriction zones (Boscombe ATZ and Netheravon). Half of the Stonehenge area IS inside the Larkhill danger area *but* its only active at certain times and is clearly published in NOTAMs so you know when it is and isnt active.
It was not active at that time.

FWIW it looks like the OP was only legal by complete accident as he failed to check flight restrictions in and around the area and just relied on Go4 (which is NOT an official source and even tells you that). The fact remains though, airspace wise, this was a legal flight in that area and at that time.

 

[gnirtS]

View attachment 79363

Looking on the map of NT lands that track *is* national trust land so you were operating against their rules (byelaws)




So in this instance the security guard WAS entitled to ask you to move. However,he is NOT entitled or legally allowed to threaten arrest. You've committed no offence legally, a breach of byelaws maximum allows them to ask you to leave the property.

FWIW the other road just up from there is NOT NT land so is perfectly legal to fly from provided you can maintain the minimum 50m from people and property (ie cars using the road).

 

[gnirtS]

Great pic, I fly in the UK but your problem is not unique to the UK. I totally stick to the rules flying drones but have had bad experiences with the police in UK, USA and Switzerland. They don't know the rules, and you just assume you are going to do something illegal. I would have thought cops had better things to do. Private security are just total ********, bored and with nothing better to do than demonstrate they are ********.

I dont know a single issue where legal, considerate drone fliers have had issues with the UK police. None of the above seems an accurate description from my personal and others i know experience of the police.
The one personal experience ive had was following a complaint made by a 3rd party. Their advice was "keep flying it, great photos, there was nothing illegal about it". Flight logs were offered as proof of being legal but they didnt even want to see them. They had to attend as it was an on-file incident but actually apologised for having to attend.
Others i know legally flying have also had the backup of the police when disputes arise. Drones are so popular the police are trained in and aware of the rules.
Of course, if you're operating outside the laws/CAP or creating a nuisance even inside those the police can and do act. As they should.

Private security i do agree with you though. They have no concept of law and think of themselves as big policemen. They're not.

 

[Reverend Ron Gunn]

I've just looked at ownership. Stonehenge is owned by the Crown and is administered on their behalf by English Heritage. The National Trust owns most of the surrounding land. NT have a land ownership map and this is a screenshot of the Stonehenge area. The orange and purple areas are NT land, the triangle in the centre is the English Heritage land surrounding the monument. The NT land is mainly farmed by leaseholders so you won't see cafes, turnstiles, gift shops or tour guides but they are the ones to give you permission to fly And taking off from the side of public roads is another no-no. All very dispiriting.

EDIT: Whoops! just seen gnirtS's post on the same subject. My map's prettier!

 

[sar104]

I've just looked at ownership. Stonehenge is owned by the Crown and is administered on their behalf by English Heritage. The National Trust owns most of the surrounding land. NT have a land ownership map and this is a screenshot of the Stonehenge area. The orange and purple areas are NT land, the triangle in the centre is the English Heritage land surrounding the monument. The NT land is mainly farmed by leaseholders so you won't see cafes, turnstiles, gift shops or tour guides but they are the ones to give you permission to fly And taking off from the side of public roads is another no-no. All very dispiriting.

EDIT: Whoops! just seen gnirtS's post on the same subject. My map's prettier!

View attachment 79396

In this case the lane where the OP launched appears to be owned by the NT, but is there a general rule/law in the UK prohibiting launching from near a public road?

 

[Reverend Ron Gunn]

In NT case they're worried about their bottom line. They make a fortune selling images, both ground and aerial commissioned by themselves.

I go back a few years, to the days of the world before it was in colour. I remember as a kid when I was first told "No Photographs!" when I took a camera to a museum I was royally pissed off when I found the museum shop selling postcards and slide sets of the items that I had wanted to take pictures of. It's been a moneyspinner for these people for years.

 

[Reverend Ron Gunn]

In this case the lane where the OP launched appears to be owned by the NT, but is there a general rule/law in the UK prohibiting launching from near a public road?

Just thinking aloud ... If there are no vehicles in the area that will be within 50m of the UAV as it ascends then possibly, just possibly ok but I would hate to argue that in a court of law. Given that you have to land somewhere and your launch site is the only place not under NT or EH control how do you manage traffic to ensure 50m separation? And if you declare an emergency because the battery is running out that is something you should have foreseen when you chose the public road as the only launch and landing site! I think, unless you can find a private launch site within line of sight, you are screwed

 

[FlyingGary]

Beautiful shot! At least post it for stock and make a little money for your trouble. If that’s legal, of course. I don’t know the UK laws around that or if Australian authorities would enforce them. Still, that really is a once-in-a-lifetime shot!