Amateur "intent" during shooting leading to future professional portfolio use?

[vindibona1]

I am a professional photographer (semi-retired) and my creativity has been reinvigorated with my drone. With my contacts I know that at some point in the future I could attract business. I know that without my Part 107 license I absolutely will not do work for any remuneration. And I know based on another thread that one's "intent" during a period of amateur status comes into play when possibly judging whether or not you are shooting for commercial purposes.

In my case I've just finished one personal project which has led to approval for another. Again, no remuneration at all. But at some point, after getting my Part 107 I'd like to use them on my website as samples (I've downgraded my business from corporate to sole proprietor status). Would using these personal projects as samples in the future be considered commercial works if I intend to use them (strictly) as such?

 

[THE CYBORG]

Now then you shot a personal project for fun, fun being the important thing.
You had no intention of using it for anything other than personal pleasure when you took it, remember that and stick to it..
So my take on the rules is you are OK if it gets used at a later date on a website.

Others may disagree but it’s the intent when taken that counts unless I have things wrong.

 

[PhantomFandom]

I know that without my Part 107 license I absolutely will not do work for any remuneration.

Renumeration has no bearing on the question of part 107 applicability.

And I know based on another thread that one's "intent" during a period of amateur status comes into play

Absolutely correct. The intent is very important.

But at some point, after getting my Part 107 I'd like to use them on my website as samples

Here is where your intent is very important and not really clear from what you've shared. What exactly is a "personal project" and what does it mean that it led to approval for another?

If these pictures were taken for anything other than strictly recreational usage then it is definitely Part 107. If you took the pictures in this personal project with the intent of using them in the future on your website, or if you take more photos with the intent to use them on your website then the intent of those flights is definitely Part 107. As such since you were not a part 107 pilot at the time of the flight and your intent was at that time to use them for a website, then you were not flying legally as per part 107 regulations. You cannot use those pictures for a website either before or after obtaining your Part 107 license because you were not licensed when you took them.

If when you took the photos you had no intent of ever using the photos for a website (or any other reason outside of purely recreational use) then you can use them later on your website.

It's all about the intent in your mind at the time of the flight and you haven't really made that abundantly clear.

 

[sar104]

Now then you shot a personal project for fun, fun being the important thing.
You had no intention of using it for anything other than personal pleasure when you took it, remember that and stick to it..
So my take on the rules is you are OK if it gets used at a later date on a website.

Others may disagree but it’s the intent when taken that counts unless I have things wrong.

It certainly is the intent, but I'm a bit concerned by the statement "I've just finished one personal project which has led to approval for another." Approval by whom? That certainly doesn't sound like recreational flying.

 

[vindibona1]

It certainly is the intent, but I'm a bit concerned by the statement "I've just finished one personal project which has led to approval for another." Approval by whom? That certainly doesn't sound like recreational flying.

It most certainly is. The thing is there is flying and flying with purpose. My original intent was to simply"practice" and I was fortunate to have a contact that gave me permission to fly on their grounds so I'd have something interesting to shoot. It took several trips back there, but I finally came up with a product that I think I could be proud of for a first time project. I just needed another project, so I wrote to the administrator of the second building, using the finished video of the first building to see if I could get approval to shoot on the grounds of the second building and I did. The terms are, if I produce something I like I simply share it with them. No money. No favors now or in the future. While the first project I had no intent at the beginning except to practice. But now I'm thinking that if I want to do this for pay IN THE FUTURE it would be good if I just had something I could used on my website or promotion some time down the road. The question posed was; does the idea of POSSIBLY using something I shoot today for future promotion [only] at that time somehow push into commercial status...

.... Or... Does one have to shoot with a blank mindset, then 3 or 4 or 12 months suddenly wake up, Part 107 in hand and say "Gee... these are good enough to use for promotional samples"?????

The thing is, that regardless of commercial status, if you want permission from managers who are in charge of iconic properties to grant you permission to fly on their grounds when they are dissuading others from doing so, you better have something in your pocket to convince them that they should let you fly over their buildings. I was very fortunate that I had a personal relationship with all the senior managers, having done still images with them before, so I was a known entity. But this second one I actually had to fill out an application and agree to specific terms and conditions, which were quite reasonable after getting general authorization.

Renumeration has no bearing on the question of part 107 applicability.


Absolutely correct. The intent is very important.


Here is where your intent is very important and not really clear from what you've shared. What exactly is a "personal project" and what does it mean that it led to approval for another?

If these pictures were taken for anything other than strictly recreational usage then it is definitely Part 107. If you took the pictures in this personal project with the intent of using them in the future on your website, or if you take more photos with the intent to use them on your website then the intent of those flights is definitely Part 107. As such since you were not a part 107 pilot at the time of the flight and your intent was at that time to use them for a website, then you were not flying legally as per part 107 regulations. You cannot use those pictures for a website either before or after obtaining your Part 107 license because you were not licensed when you took them.

If when you took the photos you had no intent of ever using the photos for a website (or any other reason outside of purely recreational use) then you can use them later on your website.

It's all about the intent in your mind at the time of the flight and you haven't really made that abundantly clear.

It sure is splitting hairs. At this point I'm safe, having done the first project without any preconceived notion of outcome or use other than sharing whatever I produced with the building. At this point I have not done the second project, and again it's mainly skill development. You want to split hairs further??? If a website exists, as mine does, with no video category at all, is thinking in the process "what if..." examining the possiblity rather than having a direct intent. This second project could very possibly turn out like crap or not up to my standards and as I never had a direct intent to use it in any fashion, the FAA would have to send me to their psychoanalyst to see I was in violation. It was certainly after the fact I thought this 1st video might be good enough in the future for my website. Now it's just being used for validation or artistic ability to secure other non-paying projects.

 

[sar104]

It most certainly is. The thing is there is flying and flying with purpose. My original intent was to simply"practice" and I was fortunate to have a contact that gave me permission to fly on their grounds so I'd have something interesting to shoot. It took several trips back there, but I finally came up with a product that I think I could be proud of for a first time project. I just needed another project, so I wrote to the administrator of the second building, using the finished video of the first building to see if I could get approval to shoot on the grounds of the second building and I did. The terms are, if I produce something I like I simply share it with them. No money. No favors now or in the future. While the first project I had no intent at the beginning except to practice. But now I'm thinking that if I want to do this for pay IN THE FUTURE it would be good if I just had something I could used on my website or promotion some time down the road. The question posed was; does the idea of POSSIBLY using something I shoot today for future promotion [only] at that time somehow push into commercial status...

.... Or... Does one have to shoot with a blank mindset, then 3 or 4 or 12 months suddenly wake up, Part 107 in hand and say "Gee... these are good enough to use for promotional samples"?????

The thing is, that regardless of commercial status, if you want permission from managers who are in charge of iconic properties to grant you permission to fly on their grounds when they are dissuading others from doing so, you better have something in your pocket to convince them that they should let you fly over their buildings. I was very fortunate that I had a personal relationship with all the senior managers, having done still images with them before, so I was a known entity. But this second one I actually had to fill out an application and agree to specific terms and conditions, which were quite reasonable after getting general authorization.


It sure is splitting hairs. At this point I'm safe, having done the first project without any preconceived notion of outcome or use other than sharing whatever I produced with the building. At this point I have not done the second project, and again it's mainly skill development. You want to split hairs further??? If a website exists, as mine does, with no video category at all, is thinking in the process "what if..." examining the possiblity rather than having a direct intent. This second project could very possibly turn out like crap or not up to my standards and as I never had a direct intent to use it in any fashion, the FAA would have to send me to their psychoanalyst to see I was in violation. It was certainly after the fact I thought this 1st video might be good enough in the future for my website. Now it's just being used for validation or artistic ability to secure other non-paying projects.

Sorry - you have completely missed the point. You already failed the recreational test when you did a specific photographic project with the intent of sharing with the building owners and/or practicing to get some kind of future paid work. As has already been pointed out, remuneration has nothing to do with it.

 

[PhantomFandom]

It most certainly is. The thing is there is flying and flying with purpose. My original intent was to simply"practice" and I was fortunate to have a contact that gave me permission to fly on their grounds so I'd have something interesting to shoot. It took several trips back there, but I finally came up with a product that I think I could be proud of

That most certainly is not recreational, right from the start. A project you could be proud of, seems to be non-recreational. This holds especially true if you are a photographer or videographer. If you were an auto mechanic for instance and just love taking pictures, then having pictures you can be proud of would easily be recreational. If your business is photography then there's no stretch to think that a project has commercial intent, especially when you needed to get permission.

I was very fortunate that I had a personal relationship with all the senior managers, having done still images with them before,

A prior relationship as what? A plumber? No, but as a photographer. So once again this is in furtherance of your business. Not only future business, but you used your current business relationship to be able to even fly over those buildings currently. This is not purely recreational.

The terms are, if I produce something I like I simply share it with them. No money. No favors now or in the future.

Money does not matter. Favors do not matter. You had terms with them in advance to share the content with them and that is not purely recreational. With advance knowledge you were creating a product that would help either them or you or both in some fashion that is not purely recreational.

The question posed was; does the idea of POSSIBLY using something I shoot today for future promotion [only] at that time somehow push into commercial status...

YES

But this second one I actually had to fill out an application and agree to specific terms and conditions, which were quite reasonable after getting general authorization.

Terms, conditions, agreement. Commercial. Period.

It sure is splitting hairs.

Not in any way splitting hairs. I'm not saying it's correct or makes sense. It's just the way the regulations are.

At this point I'm safe, having done the first project without any preconceived notion of outcome or use other than sharing whatever I produced with the building.

Not really. You knew at the time that you would be providing the product to those who gave you permission. You even had terms, and the permission was based on your prior business relationship. Commercial.

You want to split hairs further??? If a website exists, as mine does, with no video category at all, is thinking in the process "what if..." examining the possiblity rather than having a direct intent.

It is not splitting hairs. There are many cases which are indeed much closer on the edge between commercial and recreational. This is not one of them.

the FAA would have to send me to their psychoanalyst to see I was in violation.

No need when it is so clear in this case.

Now it's just being used for validation or artistic ability to secure other non-paying projects.

There we have it. Validation of your artistic ability is by definition commercial. Securing future projects is commercial. It does not matter that they are non-paying.

As a real life example from my past...
Before I got my part 107 license, I had the opportunity to take aerial pictures and video of an outdoor event for a local non-profit organization. I am not in the video/photo/artist business. I would not be getting any compensation, remuneration, favors, or future business. I would only be doing it strictly as a favor to the executive director of the non-profit. There was not even any discussion of what they would/could use the content for. By your definitions above, this would be even more clearly recreational than your flight, correct? Guess what...not recreational. I would not be flying purely for recreational reasons. As such the flight would be considered commercial. I explained that to the organization and did not fly that day. I did indeed fly for them the following year after I had my Part 107 license and it was totally legal.

Now a what if that demonstrates intent...
In this real life example, had I not known about this non-profit and I was just out on a beautiful Sunday morning taking some videos and pictures, I would have been flying in a recreational capacity. If at the event the executive director saw me packing up a drone and wandered over to me, I could have then given my footage to them and been completely legal. Or get this...I could even have sold them my footage at that point and still been totally legal because at the time of the flight my intent was purely recreational.

 

[Pstik]

I think if you have your 107 your good. Are they going to look at the date stamp of the video and photo or just see if your have a 107. I wont tell.

 

[Deleted member 114292]

I am a professional photographer (semi-retired) and my creativity has been reinvigorated with my drone. With my contacts I know that at some point in the future I could attract business. I know that without my Part 107 license I absolutely will not do work for any remuneration. And I know based on another thread that one's "intent" during a period of amateur status comes into play when possibly judging whether or not you are shooting for commercial purposes.

In my case I've just finished one personal project which has led to approval for another. Again, no remuneration at all. But at some point, after getting my Part 107 I'd like to use them on my website as samples (I've downgraded my business from corporate to sole proprietor status). Would using these personal projects as samples in the future be considered commercial works if I intend to use them (strictly) as such?

1. Don't ask a question you are not going to like the answer to.
2. Just get your 107 and be done with it.
3. The FAA told me this:
"If the original intent was indeed recreational, there is nothing that precludes the operator from selling those photos when they are later operating under Part 107, but they certainly will need a Remote Pilot Certificate to conduct non-recreational operations."
Admittedly that is just one FAA employees opinion, but I think it signals that once you get your 107 - no worries.

 

[sar104]

1. Don't ask a question you are not going to like the answer to.
2. Just get your 107 and be done with it.
3. The FAA told me this:
"If the original intent was indeed recreational, there is nothing that precludes the operator from selling those photos when they are later operating under Part 107, but they certainly will need a Remote Pilot Certificate to conduct non-recreational operations."
Admittedly that is just one FAA employees opinion, but I think it signals that once you get your 107 - no worries.

One employees incorrect opinion.

 

[vindibona1]

1. Don't ask a question you are not going to like the answer to.
2. Just get your 107 and be done with it.
3. The FAA told me this:
"If the original intent was indeed recreational, there is nothing that precludes the operator from selling those photos when they are later operating under Part 107, but they certainly will need a Remote Pilot Certificate to conduct non-recreational operations."
Admittedly that is just one FAA employees opinion, but I think it signals that once you get your 107 - no worries.

One employees incorrect opinion.

Ok... Thank you everyone for your input. I'm going to put a fork in this as it's going nowhere now. HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE...

1) I am not taking any footage at this moment for anything else other than personal projects. Period. Until I use the footage for any purpose other than sharing with family, friends and the buildings themselves, the issue is a moot point.
2) I am working on the Part 107 test which I hope to take in August or early September.
3) My fear isn't an FAA violation as I wouldn't even consider posting any pre-shot work until I had the Part 107. What, are they going to come after me ex post facto and spend resources at that point, and do electro-shock to determine intent, should I choose to use footage strictly for self promotion? I think some folks need to untwist their shorts.
3a). My concern is, and should be, solely LIABILTY for damage or injury, covered currently by my personal liability insurance which would hold up as there are no agreements or intent of remuneration or quid pro quo. Insurance doesn't rely on FUTURE intent that hasn't materialized, but the status at the moment of the incident.
4) Getting perimission from the facilities that I want to fly over is not a requirement but a courtesty as to avoid being viewed as a boorish, obnoxious drone pilot, that wants the facilities to know that I am willing to share my artwork. And while I maintain amateur status it never hurts to act like a professional.

Peace out.