Amid privacy backlash...

[AMann]

From DJI's Own White Paper:

"Although UAS do not carry people, and so do not implicate free movement of people, identification information does indicate the location of the person operating the UAS, thus revealing the activities of persons and businesses. The interest in privacy is, unfortunately, arguably heightened compared to manned aircraft considering the occasional violent confrontations that UAS operators have faced over the last few years, including physical assault and gunfire. A system that enables belligerent individuals to look up the name and address of, and then knock on the door of, a local UAS operator, is not acceptable and will detrimentally impact UAS operators who are operating safely and doing nothing wrong. The personal information of the owner (or operator) should be accessible to law enforcement only, who can investigate complaints of unlawful or dangerous conduct. Privacy and personal safety interests compel an identification system that protects operator business interests and discloses personally identifiable information only to law enforcement agencies."

My how times change.

Chip, ever look up a callsign or N-number online? That information is public and does not cause the types of issues you stated for HAMS and pilots. Why should dronies have it any differently? Besides, their registration database is not even searchable online like the others are.

 

[Chip]

Chip, ever look up a callsign or N-number online? That information is public and does not cause the types of issues you stated for HAMS and pilots. Why should dronies have it any differently? Besides, their registration database is not even searchable online like the others are.

Yes, but the N Number and HAM analogies only go so far. Ill try and explain my thinking on this but first let me throw this out.

DJI NEWS announced on 10-12-2017:

DJI Unveils Technology To Identify And Track Airborne DronesAeroScope Addresses Safety, Security And Privacy Concerns While Protecting Drone Pilots

"Drone identification settings will be included in DJI’s initial drone software to allow customers to choose the content of their own drone’s identification broadcast to match local expectations both before and after identification regulations are implemented in different jurisdictions. To protect customers’ privacy, the AeroScope system will not automatically transmit any personally identifiable information until regulations or policies in the pilot's jurisdiction require it."

But, it turns out the DJI drones transmit the personal email addresses of registered owners. Go to 2:45 of this video to see it:

 

[AMann]

Oh no, email addresses! The FCC database publishes home addresses of HAM radio license holders on the web, you can also get similar in-depth information on the N number registry from FAA.

 

[Chip]

Oh no, email addresses! The FCC database publishes home addresses of HAM radio license holders on the web, you can also get similar in-depth information on the N number registry from FAA.

Okay, so let me make sure I know how this works and understand your analogy. How would the public access your private email address from FCC database? Would they not need your name, license #, or call sign?

 

[AMann]

Okay, so let me make sure I know how this works and understand your analogy. How would any member of public get to your private email address? Would they not need your name, license #, or call sign?

My analogy is and get even deeper personal information from a FCC license callsign, so having a drone announce your registration number and email address really is no big deal. It’s easy to see who a HAM is and where they live if you have a basic UHF scanner, ham radio license operators have to announce their callsign every 10 minutes while they are talking and at the end of a transmission.

 

[Chip]

My analogy is and get even deeper personal information from a FCC license callsign, so having a drone announce your registration number and email address really is no big deal. It’s easy to see who a HAM is and where they live if you have a basic UHF scanner, ham radio license operators have to announce their call sign every 10 minutes while they are talking and at the end of a transmission. Google mine and see what I mean: KC6OXY

Ill check it out. But better yet, I got my Dad's old HAM radio in the garage, maybe its time for me to fish it out, dust it off and fire it up! Unfortunately, he never taught me what he knew so I would be starting from scratch which is not usually the best place for me to start.

 

[dirkclod]

Well make sure you get your FCC License before you mess
with that. Start here with that.
Applying for a New License in the Universal Licensing System ...

https://www.fcc.gov › ... › Universal Licensing System (ULS) Resources


IMHO you guys are going on over to much of nothing
but carry on.

 

[anotherlab]

Yes, but the N Number and HAM analogies only go so far. Ill try and explain my thinking on this but first let me throw this out.

DJI NEWS announced on 10-12-2017:

DJI Unveils Technology To Identify And Track Airborne DronesAeroScope Addresses Safety, Security And Privacy Concerns While Protecting Drone Pilots

"Drone identification settings will be included in DJI’s initial drone software to allow customers to choose the content of their own drone’s identification broadcast to match local expectations both before and after identification regulations are implemented in different jurisdictions. To protect customers’ privacy, the AeroScope system will not automatically transmit any personally identifiable information until regulations or policies in the pilot's jurisdiction require it."

But, it turns out the DJI drones transmit the personal email addresses of registered owners. Go to 2:45 of this video to see it:

The Remote ID app being done for the public is not AeroScope. AeroScope was designed and marketed to LE and airport authorities, who would have a greater need to be able to identify a rogue pilot.

 

[rangemaster728]

Most - if not all - DJI drones transmit a UUID (Unique User ID) now.

On some platforms like my Mavic Pro 1 and the Mavic Mini I can turn it off (at least until DJI decides to do a ‘forced update’).

On my Mavic Enterprise it transmits the UUID all the time, and cannot be turned off.

 

[PTBperegrine]

Here's another article, note the latter half:
DJI announced today that the Chinese drone maker has been working on a new drone-to-phone Remote ID solution that uses WiFi. The new app was demonstrated with a DJI Mavic Air (DJI, Amazon) and a DJI Mavic 2 Enterprise drone at the International Civil Aviation Organization’s third annual Drone Enable conference in Montreal. In their statement, DJI says that with this simple app “anyone within radio range of the drone can receive that signal and learn the location, altitude, speed and direction of the drone, as well as an identification number for the drone and the location of the pilot.” the new drone-to-phone Remote ID app and firmware updates from DJI are not yet available for public use as this was merely a demonstration. The company is waiting for further direction from aviation regulators and final publication of the ASTM International standard

 

[SIT]

The state laws governing use of license plate readers by law enforcement can be very strict. If license plates are the analogy, then where are all the related regulations covering collection, dissemination and use of the data?

If license plate = drone ID then does serial number = VIN number in this case?

I think the remote ID is a good thing but the type of data that is offered to the public has to be measured.

Let’s hope this helps to shape the industry in a positive way.

I do use remote ID as I have to fly in restricted airspace at times and I want full transparency with ATC. It would just be silly if every operation in restricted airspace generated a bunch of complaints that authorities had to look into.
We’re talking about the exclusion zones around every airport, every military area etc.

 

[mikey56]

I don't see a lot of privacy issues there.
According to the article:
DJI said. Using only Wi-Fi, a person could use the app to identify a nearby drone’s identification number, as well as location, altitude, speed, and direction of the drone.
DJI says its app would work on drones within a 1-kilometer (0.62 mile).
The article isn't saying your name and contact details are going to be available.

do not know if this has been said before, not been here for a few days. but if people are allowed to know my drone flight paths and my id number will the people who make the sat navs for cars and trucks give us a free app so i can know the destination, sat nav info of any car/truck that passes me when i am flying my drone. also can i have the driving licence number of the car owner as well , a car or truck can do more damage to me than my drone

 

[SandiSCE]

,

they could track who a drone was sold to by the id number.

The problem with this is that it will only track back to the ORIGINAL owner. If you sell your bird to someone else, you will still be attached to it for this tracking. Original owners will have to make sure they keep a record of the sale and the buyer’s details which will hold up in court.

 

[Chip]

do not know if this has been said before, not been here for a few days. but if people are allowed to know my drone flight paths and my id number will the people who make the sat navs for cars and trucks give us a free app so i can know the destination, sat nav info of any car/truck that passes me when i am flying my drone. also can i have the driving licence number of the car owner as well , a car or truck can do more damage to me than my drone

Great idea! Why the need for secrecy on the public roads and highways? How about an app that gives us the license plate numbers, email addresses and travel route of 80% of the vehicles we encounter on the road? DJI would store the real names and addresses to match the numbers and would share access to the database from China if and when it thought it was apprpriate depending on who was asking, how much money or political clout they had, national security implications, or consideration of any other factor by DJI at its sole discretion. What could possibly go wrong?

Drones use public airspace, I think the public has a right to know about who is using it- especially airspace near them. It really is just like cars using public roads- they have license plates that can be used by police to ID the lawbreakers, stolen vehicles, etc...

Yes, we read and hear it every day, remote ID for drones is just like a license plate reader!

But you know the difference? There are strict rules in place governing collection, dissemination and storage of LPR data.

Check out California's for example:


CA Civil Code Sec. 1798.90.51

Duties of Automated License Plate Reader Operator

An ALPR Operator shall do all of the following:

a) Maintain reasonable security procedures and practices, including operational, administrative, technical, and physical safeguards, to protect ALPR information from unauthorized access, destruction, use, modification, or disclosure.

(b)(1) Implement a usage and privacy policy in order to ensure that the collection, use, maintenance, sharing, and dissemination of ALPR information is consistent with respect for individuals' privacy and civil liberties. The usage and privacy policy shall be available to the public in writing, and, if the ALPR operator has an Internet Web site, the usage and privacy policy shall be posted conspicuously on that Internet Web site.

(2) The usage and privacy policy shall, at a minimum, include all of the following:

(A) The authorized purposes for using the ALPR system and collecting ALPR information.

(B) A description of the job title or other designation of the employees and independent contractors who are authorized to use or access the ALPR system, or to collect ALPR information. The policy shall identify the training requirements necessary for those authorized employees and independent contractors.

(C) A description of how the ALPR system will be monitored to ensure the security of the information and compliance with applicable privacy laws.

(D) The purposes of, process for, and restrictions on, the sale, sharing, or transfer of ALPR information to other persons.

(E) The title of the official custodian, or owner, of the ALPR system responsible for implementing this section.

(F) A description of the reasonable measures that will be used to ensure the accuracy of ALPR information and correct data errors.

(G) The length of time ALPR information will be retained, and the process the ALPR operator will utilize to determine if and when to destroy retained ALPR information.

CA Civil Code Sec. 1798.90.52(a)

Record of Access; Use of Information

If an ALPR Operator accesses or provides access to ALPR information the ALRP operator shall do both of the following:

a) Maintain a record of that access. At a minimum, the record shall include all of the following:

(1) The date and time the information is accessed.

(2) The license plate number or other data elements used to query the ALPR system.

(3) The username of the person who accesses the information, and, as applicable, the organization or entity with whom the person is affiliated.

(4) The purpose for accessing the information.

(b) Require that ALPR information only be used for the authorized purposes described in the usage and privacy policy required by subdivision (b) of Section 1798.90.51.

CA Civil Code Sec. 1798.90.53

Duties of ALPR End-User

An ALPR end-user shall do all of the following:

a) Maintain reasonable security procedures and practices, including operational, administrative, technical, and physical safeguards, to protect ALPR information from unauthorized access, destruction, use, modification, or disclosure.

(b)(1) Implement a usage and privacy policy in order to ensure that the access, use, sharing, and dissemination of ALPR information is consistent with respect for individuals' privacy and civil liberties. The usage and privacy policy shall be available to the public in writing, and, if the ALPR end-user has an Internet Web site, the usage and privacy policy shall be posted conspicuously on that Internet Web site.

(2) The usage and privacy policy shall, at a minimum, include all of the following:

(A) The authorized purposes for accessing and using ALPR information.

(B) A description of the job title or other designation of the employees and independent contractors who are authorized to access and use ALPR information. The policy shall identify the training requirements necessary for those authorized employees and independent contractors.

(C) A description of how the ALPR system will be monitored to ensure the security of the information accessed or used, and compliance with all applicable privacy laws and a process for periodic system audits.

(D) The purposes of, process for, and restrictions on, the sale, sharing, or transfer of ALPR information to other persons.

(E) The title of the official custodian, or owner, of the ALPR information responsible for implementing this section.

(F) A description of the reasonable measures that will be used to ensure the accuracy of ALPR information and correct data errors.

(G) The length of time ALPR information will be retained, and the process the ALPR end-user will utilize to determine if and when to destroy retained ALPR information.

CA Civil Code Sec. 1798.90.54

Civil Action

(a) In addition to any other sanctions, penalties, or remedies provided by law, an individual who has been harmed by a violation of this title, including, but not limited to, unauthorized access or use of ALPR information or a breach of security of an ALPR system, may bring a civil action in any court of competent jurisdiction against a person who knowingly caused the harm.

(b) The court may award a combination of any one or more of the following:

(1) Actual damages, but not less than liquidated damages in the amount of two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500).

(2) Punitive damages upon proof of willful or reckless disregard of the law.

(3) Reasonable attorney s fees and other litigation costs reasonably incurred.

(4) Other preliminary and equitable relief as the court determines to be appropriate.

 

[sar104]

Great idea! Why the need for secrecy on the public roads and highways? How about an app that gives us the license plate numbers, email addresses and travel route of 80% of the vehicles we encounter on the road? DJI would store the real names and addresses to match the numbers and would share access to the database from China if and when it thought it was apprpriate depending on who was asking, how much money or political clout they had, national security implications, or consideration of any other factor by DJI at its sole discretion. What could possibly go wrong?

View attachment 85818



Yes, we read and hear it every day, remote ID for drones is just like a license plate reader!

But you know the difference? There are strict rules in place governing collection, dissemination and storage of LPR data.

Check out California's for example:


CA Civil Code Sec. 1798.90.51

Duties of Automated License Plate Reader Operator

An ALPR Operator shall do all of the following:

a) Maintain reasonable security procedures and practices, including operational, administrative, technical, and physical safeguards, to protect ALPR information from unauthorized access, destruction, use, modification, or disclosure.

(b)(1) Implement a usage and privacy policy in order to ensure that the collection, use, maintenance, sharing, and dissemination of ALPR information is consistent with respect for individuals' privacy and civil liberties. The usage and privacy policy shall be available to the public in writing, and, if the ALPR operator has an Internet Web site, the usage and privacy policy shall be posted conspicuously on that Internet Web site.

(2) The usage and privacy policy shall, at a minimum, include all of the following:

(A) The authorized purposes for using the ALPR system and collecting ALPR information.

(B) A description of the job title or other designation of the employees and independent contractors who are authorized to use or access the ALPR system, or to collect ALPR information. The policy shall identify the training requirements necessary for those authorized employees and independent contractors.

(C) A description of how the ALPR system will be monitored to ensure the security of the information and compliance with applicable privacy laws.

(D) The purposes of, process for, and restrictions on, the sale, sharing, or transfer of ALPR information to other persons.

(E) The title of the official custodian, or owner, of the ALPR system responsible for implementing this section.

(F) A description of the reasonable measures that will be used to ensure the accuracy of ALPR information and correct data errors.

(G) The length of time ALPR information will be retained, and the process the ALPR operator will utilize to determine if and when to destroy retained ALPR information.

CA Civil Code Sec. 1798.90.52(a)

Record of Access; Use of Information

If an ALPR Operator accesses or provides access to ALPR information the ALRP operator shall do both of the following:

a) Maintain a record of that access. At a minimum, the record shall include all of the following:

(1) The date and time the information is accessed.

(2) The license plate number or other data elements used to query the ALPR system.

(3) The username of the person who accesses the information, and, as applicable, the organization or entity with whom the person is affiliated.

(4) The purpose for accessing the information.

(b) Require that ALPR information only be used for the authorized purposes described in the usage and privacy policy required by subdivision (b) of Section 1798.90.51.

CA Civil Code Sec. 1798.90.53

Duties of ALPR End-User

An ALPR end-user shall do all of the following:

a) Maintain reasonable security procedures and practices, including operational, administrative, technical, and physical safeguards, to protect ALPR information from unauthorized access, destruction, use, modification, or disclosure.

(b)(1) Implement a usage and privacy policy in order to ensure that the access, use, sharing, and dissemination of ALPR information is consistent with respect for individuals' privacy and civil liberties. The usage and privacy policy shall be available to the public in writing, and, if the ALPR end-user has an Internet Web site, the usage and privacy policy shall be posted conspicuously on that Internet Web site.

(2) The usage and privacy policy shall, at a minimum, include all of the following:

(A) The authorized purposes for accessing and using ALPR information.

(B) A description of the job title or other designation of the employees and independent contractors who are authorized to access and use ALPR information. The policy shall identify the training requirements necessary for those authorized employees and independent contractors.

(C) A description of how the ALPR system will be monitored to ensure the security of the information accessed or used, and compliance with all applicable privacy laws and a process for periodic system audits.

(D) The purposes of, process for, and restrictions on, the sale, sharing, or transfer of ALPR information to other persons.

(E) The title of the official custodian, or owner, of the ALPR information responsible for implementing this section.

(F) A description of the reasonable measures that will be used to ensure the accuracy of ALPR information and correct data errors.

(G) The length of time ALPR information will be retained, and the process the ALPR end-user will utilize to determine if and when to destroy retained ALPR information.

CA Civil Code Sec. 1798.90.54

Civil Action

(a) In addition to any other sanctions, penalties, or remedies provided by law, an individual who has been harmed by a violation of this title, including, but not limited to, unauthorized access or use of ALPR information or a breach of security of an ALPR system, may bring a civil action in any court of competent jurisdiction against a person who knowingly caused the harm.

(b) The court may award a combination of any one or more of the following:

(1) Actual damages, but not less than liquidated damages in the amount of two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500).

(2) Punitive damages upon proof of willful or reckless disregard of the law.

(3) Reasonable attorney s fees and other litigation costs reasonably incurred.

(4) Other preliminary and equitable relief as the court determines to be appropriate.

View attachment 85819

This is getting silly. The proposed app doesn't reveal any PII to the public, and it doesn't reveal anything about the pilot other than that someone is piloting a drone nearby. Flying in the NAS carries no expectation of privacy.

 

[anotherlab]

... DJI would store the real names and addresses to match the numbers and would share access to the database from China if and when it thought it was apprpriate depending on who was asking, how much money or political clout they had, national security implications, or consideration of any other factor by DJI at its sole discretion. What could possibly go wrong? ...

With all due respect, with the scenarios that you just described, DJI doesn't need an app to give out PII. Other than providing information to the NTSB to assist in the investigation of a drone/helicopter collision, they haven't released any PII.

DJI has proposed (not even released) a Remote ID app because it is facing regulations from the US and European governments to do so. By announcing a system now and describing how it would work, they are trying to make their system the de jere as well de facto system. DJI's proposed system only works for DJI drones, and only the ones with the firmware that supports broadcasting this information over Wi-Fi Aware.

If US and European authorities say "everyone use a system compatible with DJI's", then anyone can write an app that shows the Remote ID and related information. Nothing that DJI is doing here should be proprietary. When other drone makers comply with the Remote ID requirements by the end 2020, you'll be able to see their information too. But no one will be releasing any PII for the following reasons: they don't want to, they don't have to, they wont have it to give out.

 

[mikey56]

This was a sarcastic remark by myself, I was not asking the app from DJI , the app could be supplied by TOMTOM, GARMIN, not by an out of country supplier. but as i say just a knee jerk reaction to the thought of people coming up to me and saying " i have you on my new drone checking app, so do not think i do not know where you and your drone are mate.

 

[anotherlab]

This was a sarcastic remark by myself, I was not asking the app from DJI , the app could be supplied by TOMTOM, GARMIN, not by an out of country supplier. but as i say just a knee jerk reaction to the thought of people coming up to me and saying " i have you on my new drone checking app, so do not think i do not know where you and your drone are mate.

Which countries count as "out of country"? ?

TomTom is a Dutch company and Garmin (while started in the US) was incorporated in Switzerland.

 

[mikey56]

well i am in the UK so do the US the Dutch or Swiss more than China, we trust them or we would not by there products.or should we alienate our selves from any country which is not our own ( ok i know about Brexit)

 

[anotherlab]

well i am in the UK so do the US the Dutch or Swiss more than China, we trust them or we would not by there products.or should we alienate our selves from any country which is not our own ( ok i know about Brexit)

Sorry, I think you had some typos. I have no idea what you were trying to say.?‍

Apps reporting Remote ID data won't have PII to give out. At any rate and ignoring Brexit for a moment, EU privacy laws would block any app from giving out your PII.