Australia - Drone Licensing from July 1st 2019

[Pietros]

I hear you. I didn't mind paying the money and doing the RePL because I always intended to operate commercially in controlled airspace with large aircraft so that was fair enough.

I can grudgingly accept that in this litigatious age that even recreational flyers should prove they know the rules and as the licencing itself here (except for RePL) is at no cost you could be mistaken for believing it was about safety .... then you get to the registration costs and it becomes obvious that yet again it is another stealth tax.

Welcome to Australia

If it's sits still we paint it
If it moves we shoot it
If it's fun we tax it and
If it grows we cut it down

Regards
Ari

Thanks for all your information Ari. I was aware of the incoming rules but not the details and was unable to locate them on the CASA website.

Oh and your left a line off your list:

"If it's an idiot, we elect it!"

Cheers

Peter

 

[Pietros]

Understand that's just a CASA person trying to come up with something to explain to a journalist what this will achieve .. or how useful it will be.
... when in fact it won't achieve much at all, but they are trying to put a positive spin on it.

Indeed, if you are a cowboy you are not going to register so the honest amongst us will do the test, pay up and stick our rego number (ARN?) on our drones and continue to fly safely.

 

[Remote Pilots Australia]

"If it's an idiot, we elect it!"

Absolutely golden! Consider it added

 

[bushie]

if you have your PPL then you have an ARN
it is your pilot number

Checked it all out with CASA and registered on their web page. They have my records back to 1968 when i started learning and my ARN is still good

 

[Simmo]

Fook me Bushie, you can fly!!!

 

[RB30X]

From my perspective it's punitive and unjustified.

I think we probably agree that some form of licencing was always going to eventuate here as overseas and if it's inevitable then the balance is probably about as right as it can be.

On the other hand registration at the fee scale they are suggesting doesn't stack up. They are telling us that the reason for the registration is to cover the administration costs and the costs of establishing a database and management regime. Well, the truth of it is that as far as RePLs go they already have that. They collect all of this data from the training providers when we do the course and sit the exams. If they didn't know who I was and where to find me then how for example were they able to contact me out of the blue last month and invite me to attend a consultation regarding the new system at C.A.S.A.main office in Brisbane? I've already shelled out a fair bit in licencing and don't get me started on ReOC fees, the word thou$and$ is accurate.

Recreational pilots on the other hand are totally different. C.A.S.A. is not able to guess the number of R.P.A. in the country, they say between 30 000 and 100 000. That's a pretty large area of uncertainty and of course how could it be otherwise when people have been able to walk into any number of retailers and lay down their money and walkout with the gear for some years. This of course leads to recreational pilots being almost unknown and unpoliceable. The only recreational pilots who have ever been sanctioned are either caught in the act or silly enough to post footage of themselves on social media or YouTube.

Se the situation is that recreational pilots who account for 95%+ of the R.P.A. in the country and 99.5% of the actionable offenses are going to be charged $20 for unlimited aircraft while an RePL who is already on record, is unlikely to take part in an offense as they are formally trained in the rules and have too much invested to risk losing it are going to pay $160 per aircraft per year. There's not too many major Australian based players really, most of the big ones are overseas interests and the majority are small startups like anzacjack or myself. If everything goes perfectly I still don't expect to see any return over expenditure for 3 years and C.A.S.A. now want to sting me a 4 figure sum each year on top? After they establish the database and management system they justify continuing the fees of that scale on what basis for that matter?

At best this is an inequitable excercise in making the compliant few pay for the policing of the unknown and vast majority. At the worst it is nothing more than a blatant cash grab and a stealth tax. I already know of several operators who have said they will shut up shop if it is not re thought. Dropping the outrage and being just plainly honest another thousand or two (or more) a year for the next three years when I am already in for a 5 figure sum (and climbing) and I am not making any income may be enough to stop me. It was always going to be tight starting up a new business, it is with any business with over 80% of any kind going under in the first 2 years but this sort of fee structure was just simply not on the cards or factored in my business plan when I decided to give it a shot.

Fair to say I'm pretty preturbed.

Regards
Ari

From my perspective it's punitive and unjustified.

I think we probably agree that some form of licencing was always going to eventuate here as overseas and if it's inevitable then the balance is probably about as right as it can be.

On the other hand registration at the fee scale they are suggesting doesn't stack up. They are telling us that the reason for the registration is to cover the administration costs and the costs of establishing a database and management regime. Well, the truth of it is that as far as RePLs go they already have that. They collect all of this data from the training providers when we do the course and sit the exams. If they didn't know who I was and where to find me then how for example were they able to contact me out of the blue last month and invite me to attend a consultation regarding the new system at C.A.S.A.main office in Brisbane? I've already shelled out a fair bit in licencing and don't get me started on ReOC fees, the word thou$and$ is accurate.

Recreational pilots on the other hand are totally different. C.A.S.A. is not able to guess the number of R.P.A. in the country, they say between 30 000 and 100 000. That's a pretty large area of uncertainty and of course how could it be otherwise when people have been able to walk into any number of retailers and lay down their money and walkout with the gear for some years. This of course leads to recreational pilots being almost unknown and unpoliceable. The only recreational pilots who have ever been sanctioned are either caught in the act or silly enough to post footage of themselves on social media or YouTube.

Se the situation is that recreational pilots who account for 95%+ of the R.P.A. in the country and 99.5% of the actionable offenses are going to be charged $20 for unlimited aircraft while an RePL who is already on record, is unlikely to take part in an offense as they are formally trained in the rules and have too much invested to risk losing it are going to pay $160 per aircraft per year. There's not too many major Australian based players really, most of the big ones are overseas interests and the majority are small startups like anzacjack or myself. If everything goes perfectly I still don't expect to see any return over expenditure for 3 years and C.A.S.A. now want to sting me a 4 figure sum each year on top? After they establish the database and management system they justify continuing the fees of that scale on what basis for that matter?

At best this is an inequitable excercise in making the compliant few pay for the policing of the unknown and vast majority. At the worst it is nothing more than a blatant cash grab and a stealth tax. I already know of several operators who have said they will shut up shop if it is not re thought. Dropping the outrage and being just plainly honest another thousand or two (or more) a year for the next three years when I am already in for a 5 figure sum (and climbing) and I am not making any income may be enough to stop me. It was always going to be tight starting up a new business, it is with any business with over 80% of any kind going under in the first 2 years but this sort of fee structure was just simply not on the cards or factored in my business plan when I decided to give it a shot.

Fair to say I'm pretty preturbed.

Regards
Ari

100% agreed mate.

From another frustrated RePL / ReOC holder. I've shelled out enough of my own funds to set up a very small business to earn a small amount of money legally. While people who breaks the rules and/or operate commercially without any ARN/RePL/ReOC will not be lining up to participate in these new rules either. Improving safety is absolute garbage. Make all of Aus a no fly zone until recreational/excluded complete the new training/register their drone. And leave the rest of us to follow our existing rules and pay our existing costs.

 

[Remote Pilots Australia]

100% agreed mate.

Then I had a discussion with the head of RPAS management at C.A.S.A. this morning on another subject but this came up in discussion. It seems some of my presuppositions regarding the percentages of commercial operators in relation to recreational pilots and who has what percentages of infringements class wise may be skewed.

He also said that he considered the $160 per aircraft per year to be at "the extreme edge" of the fee spectrum and that he would be very surprised were that to be the final figure so *shrug* I'll just be quiet until the laws are actually announced and make a judgement then.

Regards
Ari

 

[Lon Denard]

I'm wondering what happened? It wasn't that long ago that a guy from Australia was explaining to me that you all don't need regulations like Americans do because you all have better common sense than we do... He literally stated that you all were LESS regulated than we are. I was inches away from pointing out speech and gun control laws but refrained. Australia is a beautiful country, hopefully I'll get to fly my drone there someday!

 

[Remote Pilots Australia]

I'm wondering what happened? It wasn't that long ago that a guy from Australia was explaining to me that you all don't need regulations like Americans do because you all have better common sense than we do... He literally stated that you all were LESS regulated than we are. I was inches away from pointing out speech and gun control laws but refrained. Australia is a beautiful country, hopefully I'll get to fly my drone there someday!

Hi Lon

I don't know who the "guy from Australia" was but I'll ask you to give the rest of us a pass on that one. I'm sure you have plenty of fellow countrymen who's opinion isn't necessarily yours

As far as "common sense" goes, have you noticed it's not actually that common regardless of where you are in the world?

I don't know for sure who was less or more regulated R.P.A. wise before the new regimes coming into force here and in the U.S. but I would suspect that we're all managed about the same in the U.K., the U.S., N.Z. and here now... the poor old Canadians are another matter.

As far as laws regarding freedom of speech and gun laws, well they're outside of the cope of the forums but we don't have any laws that actually prohibit free speech but we do not have it constitutionally protected as it is in the U.S. either. At best we have an "implied right to free speech" and then a bunch of lesser known laws that prohibit us from saying anything that may vilify someone or incite hatred or endanger the national interest and another load of vagaries that can pretty well be interpreted however the government wants to. In fact unlike the U.S. the only right we have in our weak constitution is to freedom of religion. Also we have no bill of rights ... it's a nanny state and it's less than optimal without a doubt. Our drone laws are not so bad.

On our gun laws ... don't get me started. In a previous life when I was younger and fitter I was nationally ranked with both long arms and pistol and a small arms and un armed combat instructor and collected historic firearms. I had 31 military firearms at the time of the Port Arthur incident and like a good drone I handed them all in because I was in special projects with a security clearance at the time.

Yes our government successfully dis armed the law abiding public, however it should be noted that they have yet to come up with a workable way of disarming the criminal faction of the populous.

With the recent appalling situation in N.Z. I'll probably be crucified for saying this but it is beyond question that here the politically correct official line pushing indoctrinating media constantly hold the U.S. and it's gun laws up to us as a barbaric wild west and a population of gun wielding maniacs this being the proof that our laws are the best in the world and I'm sure the anti gun lobby in the U.S. constantly push us as the very model of civilised gun control ... the truth of course lies in between. You may be less likely to be shot here but they don't bother you with any pesky freedoms either. If our patriots ever have to "protect us from any enemy even our own government" (I like Mr Jefferson) we are stuffed I guess aren't we?

OK enough of my radicalism before I get a knock on the door.

Regards
Ari

 

[Phill]

Ahh good point, I knew I would forget something. All R.P.A. pilots regardless of licence will be required to have an Aviation Reference Number (A.R.N).

Regards
Ari

And if you already have one???

 

[Simmo]

And if you already have one???

Just sit the relevant exam and pay the registration and relevant fee.

 

[Meta4]

I'm wondering what happened?

see post #27

 

[Lon Denard]

Hi Lon

I don't know who the "guy from Australia" was but I'll ask you to give the rest of us a pass on that one. I'm sure you have plenty of fellow countrymen who's opinion isn't necessarily yours

As far as "common sense" goes, have you noticed it's not actually that common regardless of where you are in the world?

I don't know for sure who was less or more regulated R.P.A. wise before the new regimes coming into force here and in the U.S. but I would suspect that we're all managed about the same in the U.K., the U.S., N.Z. and here now... the poor old Canadians are another matter.

As far as laws regarding freedom of speech and gun laws, well they're outside of the cope of the forums but we don't have any laws that actually prohibit free speech but we do not have it constitutionally protected as it is in the U.S. either. At best we have an "implied right to free speech" and then a bunch of lesser known laws that prohibit us from saying anything that may vilify someone or incite hatred or endanger the national interest and another load of vagaries that can pretty well be interpreted however the government wants to. In fact unlike the U.S. the only right we have in our weak constitution is to freedom of religion. Also we have no bill of rights ... it's a nanny state and it's less than optimal without a doubt. Our drone laws are not so bad.

On our gun laws ... don't get me started. In a previous life when I was younger and fitter I was nationally ranked with both long arms and pistol and a small arms and un armed combat instructor and collected historic firearms. I had 31 military firearms at the time of the Port Arthur incident and like a good drone I handed them all in because I was in special projects with a security clearance at the time.

Yes our government successfully dis armed the law abiding public, however it should be noted that they have yet to come up with a workable way of disarming the criminal faction of the populous.

With the recent appalling situation in N.Z. I'll probably be crucified for saying this but it is beyond question that here the politically correct official line pushing indoctrinating media constantly hold the U.S. and it's gun laws up to us as a barbaric wild west and a population of gun wielding maniacs this being the proof that our laws are the best in the world and I'm sure the anti gun lobby in the U.S. constantly push us as the very model of civilised gun control ... the truth of course lies in between. You may be less likely to be shot here but they don't bother you with any pesky freedoms either. If our patriots ever have to "protect us from any enemy even our own government" (I like Mr Jefferson) we are stuffed I guess aren't we?

OK enough of my radicalism before I get a knock on the door.

Regards
Ari

You sir are a very interesting person! You may have me beat but I am well travelled and was actually born in Europe. I have lived on five of the seven continents. Australia is my last stop as I have no real desire to visit Antarctica.

The speech jibe was aimed at the gender question and the laws being proposed that prohibit you from referring to someone by their genetic sex if they prefer to be addressed otherwise. The gun laws haven't stopped people from being murdered, based on the statistics. They definitely haven't stopped robbery or rape either...

All countries have their faults, for sure. Heck, when I lived in France motorcycles weren't allowed to have more than 100hp! That sir would be cause for revolution in my opinion!

In any case, thank you for an interesting and well thought out response. I truly appreciate it.

 

[Phill]

Just sit the relevant exam and pay the registration and relevant fee.

Strange that I haven't heard from them yet.
They're certainly cutting it fine if they intend to make it law by July.
Hopefully there will be a time frame in which to comply because they're going to have a LOT of paperwork IF and I stress IF everyone complies which I sincerely doubt.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Strange that I haven't heard from them yet.
They're certainly cutting it fine if they intend to make it law by July.
Hopefully there will be a time frame in which to comply because they're going to have a LOT of paperwork IF and I stress IF everyone complies which I sincerely doubt.

True, it'll be here before you know it !
Let's hope the new processes come in smoothly, I guess putting up an online questionnaire / test shouldn't be too difficult, but getting news to all existing hobbyists and new drone owners needs a lot of work !!
Those with ARNs should hear soon I hope.
Commercial operators will just be awaiting forms or whatever to complete, and pay the exorbitant fees for their flying machines :/

 

[Remote Pilots Australia]

Hi again Lon

You sir are a very interesting person!

I'm not sure how interesting I am but I try to be a thinking person

I have lived on five of the seven continents. Australia is my last stop as I have no real desire to visit Antarctica.

I'm sure you'd enjoy it here, it has it's issues but we're a pretty welcoming crowd as a whole. Why not Antarctica? We own most of that too don't you know? Just ask our government. If you make it down our way drop me a P.M. and I'll be up for a meet if it's possible.

The speech jibe was aimed at the gender question and the laws being proposed that prohibit you from referring to someone by their genetic sex

Oh yes, this nonsense. How did that meme I saw the other day go? Oh yes .."How can a generation brought up on SouthPark and Family Guy be so easily offended?". Look I'm pretty tolerant of what I'll daringly call "non standard" sexualities and gender self identifications, it might not be for me but if it works for them who am I to judge? By the same token, as they are so vocal we tend to forget that these demographics are minorities in society and I really don't support the social paradigm of society as a whole being dictated by any minority. Personally I identify as a combine harvester so keep me away from your Southern 40.

The gun laws haven't stopped people from being murdered, based on the statistics. They definitely haven't stopped robbery or rape either...

I can't argue and while the extra accessibility of firearms may be a factor in the rate of firearms crime I think that social factors and outlook play a greater role. Before Port Arthur Australia had a very high per capita gun ownership and a high public proficiency in their use which was even noted by the Japanese when deciding if they should pay us a visit during WWII but we were never greatly given to mass shooting. Remember, Martin Bryant was an imbecile in the true sense of the word .. I.Q. of 66. Whoever gave him the firearms is at least as culpable as he was.

All countries have their faults, for sure. Heck, when I lived in France motorcycles weren't allowed to have more than 100hp! That sir would be cause for revolution in my opinion!

No, it wouldn't fly with me either, yup outed myself as one of those radical civil libertarians haven't I? *sigh* wonder if they have another bed in the Ecuadorian embassy? Mr Assange and I can compare notes .... at least I could send my inspire down the road for pizza.

In any case, thank you for an interesting and well thought out response. I truly appreciate it.

You're most welcome, I try to always play the ball (I'm human, I get it wrong at times) but I always default in "thoughtful discussion" mode rather than "heated debate". You get a lot more out of it that way.

I thought your original post was all fair comment so I simply replied in kind.

Tale care

Sorry to the readers for going off road there but I tried to keep it entertaining

Regards
Ari

 

[Remote Pilots Australia]

They're certainly cutting it fine if they intend to make it law by July.

Well, they're supposedly doing it in a staggered roll out, Implemented for one licence class only in July, the next in September and the remainder by December.

They're certainly cutting it fine if they intend to make it law by July.
Hopefully there will be a time frame in which to comply because they're going to have a LOT of paperwork IF and I stress IF everyone complies which I sincerely doubt.

Well as they intend for it all to be web based and pretty well automated assuming they get it implemented it should be fairly smooth. Getting your A.R.N. is probably going to be the biggest fiddle. I'm not going to comment on the compliance rate. Time will tell I guess. How vigorously it is enforced will have a bearing on it I'd say.

Regards
Ari

 

[Phill]

Well, they're supposedly doing it in a staggered roll out, Implemented for one licence class only in July, the next in September and the remainder by December.



Well as they intend for it all to be web based and pretty well automated assuming they get it implemented it should be fairly smooth. Getting your A.R.N. is probably going to be the biggest fiddle. I'm not going to comment on the compliance rate. Time will tell I guess. How vigorously it is enforced will have a bearing on it I'd say.

Regards
Ari

The fact that I have an ARN makes me wonder why I haven't heard anything from them.
The online testing will be pretty straight forward but then they have to email everyone that passes.
That's where I see the hold up being.
I think enforcement will depend largely on complaints other wise they're going to need a lot of inspectors stationed all over the country.

 

[Remote Pilots Australia]

I think enforcement will depend largely on complaints other wise they're going to need a lot of inspectors stationed all over the country.

Actually not so much as you'd think. This came out in my discussion with the fellow at C.A.S.A. yesterday, apparently there's been a considerable amount of back and forth between the Police and C.A.S.A. behind the scenes and the new legislation gives police considerably more scope in entering the field of R.P.A. enforcement and I get the impression you are going to be dealing with you local plod more than C.A.S.A. inspectors in the first instance.

Regards
Ari

 

[Phill]

Actually not so much as you'd think. This came out in my discussion with the fellow at C.A.S.A. yesterday, apparently there's been a considerable amount of back and forth between the Police and C.A.S.A. behind the scenes and the new legislation gives police considerably more scope in entering the field of R.P.A. enforcement and I get the impression you are going to be dealing with you local plod more than C.A.S.A. inspectors in the first instance.

Regards
Ari

That makes sense.
Luckily I live in a relatively remote area and a few of those around me also have drones and I can't see any problems with the way we fly.
Most of the locals wave when we go by and one woman down the street has threatened to "get the girls out" if I fly over her place.(I'm still waiting)
Her husband has since purchased a P4P.