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Battery Efficiency : Sport Mode vs P (GPS Mode)

I'd add that P or S mode doesn't matter, insofar as we're talking about speed here. So, as long as you can reach the peak efficiency speed, it makes no difference what mode you're in.

Really the best way to do this is under conditions where ground speed and air speed are the same -- i.e. calm day with no winds. Then you DO have an airspeed indicator in the display -- the horizontal ground speed.

This is, by the way, how the distance fliers did their experiments and came up with around 32mph as the optimal airspeed.
 
This is, by the way, how the distance fliers did their experiments and came up with around 32mph as the optimal airspeed.

Which is right around the top speed in P-mode with the sensors turned off....
 
I'd add that P or S mode doesn't matter, insofar as we're talking about speed here. So, as long as you can reach the peak efficiency speed, it makes no difference what mode you're in.

Really the best way to do this is under conditions where ground speed and air speed are the same -- i.e. calm day with no winds. Then you DO have an airspeed indicator in the display -- the horizontal ground speed.

This is, by the way, how the distance fliers did their experiments and came up with around 32mph as the optimal airspeed.
I do understand that it doesn't matter whether it is in P or S mode. However, only in S mode we can see the motors power output.

The long distance fliers have found "the most efficient" speed before the unlocking days frenzy. I don't think they do that in S mode while trying to keep the speed at 32mph? (or do they?). So, I think it is safe to assume that "the most efficient speed" is achieved at the default factory P mode tilt of 25 deg. If both assumptions are true, I am correct to deduce that if we want to know what is the most efficient motor output, we can set the S mode tilt angle at 25 deg and see what is the percentage of motor output?

But then the question is, is there such thing as the most efficient motor output in terms of percentage? For example, which one will make the battery last longer, running at 40% or 60%? But the more important question is, which one will cover the more distance? I am guessing it depends on the tilt angle as well, so it is becoming rather complex.

Unfortunately even if there is such a thing as the most efficient motor output for distance, we probably cannot fully utilize it as it seems Mavic is programmed not to exceed 40mph ground speed. Once we reached this speed, the motor output is reduced. With enough tailwind, we can cruise along at 40mph while the motors are only producing 30% of max output. If we set the tilt angle more aggressively, indeed it will exceed 40mph. I did reach 50mph with an aggressive tilt angle, but while I don't recall what was the percentage of motor output, I am quite sure it was way less than 80%. May be at an aggressive tilt angle the higher motor power was needed to keep the Mavic from falling down but at the same time making it moving forward exceeding the set ground speed?
 
in terms of performance efficiency, wind does not exist for aircraft. Think about it.

I surprised myself that I actually get what you mean :)

Reading your explanations on the following posts confirmed that indeed I get it. I am planning to do some tests this weekend: doing Sports Mode, keeping the RPM at around 60% (is it the most efficient for the motors?), and compare the ground speed with what I get with P mode OA off.

Perhaps one of you would be kind enough to explain this to the rest of us idiots. I mean, I know my Mavic flys faster with a tail wind and slower with headwind. To me, that means it's more efficient with a tail wind (more distance for the same energy) and less efficient going into a headwind (less distance for the same energy).

Explain how that's wrong.
 
I surprised myself that I actually get what you mean :)

Reading your explanations on the following posts confirmed that indeed I get it. I am planning to do some tests this weekend: doing Sports Mode, keeping the RPM at around 60% (is it the most efficient for the motors?), and compare the ground speed with what I get with P mode OA off.
I have been trying out different speeds on cross country flights and I am still of the opinion that p mode full speed is the most efficient. I always fly the first leg into wind . I guess my PPL and glider pilots license taught me to do that. Flying my Cessna 150 at full throttle also burns fuel faster than gentle flying with a tail wind. There is an argument, however that when you are in sinking air or a headwind that you should floor it to get out but only in short bursts.
 
In case it was missed, this entire discussion is academic and not really practical because the MP is a fly-by-wire system, where it is really the Flight Controller that is controlling the power to each of the 4 motors, continuously varying it, to meet certain control targets.

When you push the stick forward, all you are doing is sending a bounded value to the software on the aircraft representing a stick position between -100 to +100 %. The FC maps this to a speed range based on other settings, and then controls the motors to attempt to achieve this GPS GROUND SPEED based on stick position.

It does this in spite of wind, heading, etc. This is the desired behavior. However, it makes "speed", as we're talking about here (which is GPS ground speed), irrelevant as concerns flying at peak system efficiency, where "efficiency" is the greatest distance traveled for the charge left in the battery.

All the previous discussion was to try and explain the science behind the simple statement that wind has no impact on efficiency.

Wind doesn't factor into efficiency for the same reason we wouldn't anaylze a car running downhill turning the engine as it goes, with a completely empty gas tank, as having an engine design with "infinite" efficiency. The obvious problem with this is taking an external force acting on the car -- gravity -- and including it's effects in analyzing the motive force of the engine as it consumes fuel.

More similar to our case, we wouldn't want to measure the fuel efficiency of a car with a stiff headwind for the same reasons stated above -- wind represents an external force that should not be a part of our efficiency analysis and calculations.

Another way to look at it: If the MP is most efficient at 30mph airspeed (or, ground speed in still, no-wind conditions... same thing, again if you think about it), then the most efficient ground speed flying directly into a 10mph wind would bev 20mph.

Under those conditions, what is the speed the aircraft is moving through the air? 30mph, of course... the peak efficiency speed. The aircraft body, props, etc. only know the air flowing past it, it knows nothing of the ground aerodynamically.

In truth what we just did without the formal math and physics formulas is perform a Galilean Relativity reference frame translation.
 
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Perhaps one of you would be kind enough to explain this to the rest of us idiots. I mean, I know my Mavic flys faster with a tail wind and slower with headwind. To me, that means it's more efficient with a tail wind (more distance for the same energy) and less efficient going into a headwind (less distance for the same energy).

Explain how that's wrong.
Don't you want your drone to come back home? :) If your outbound flight was with tailwind, once you turned around you would be facing headwind. Then your ground speed will be far from efficient to go back home.

It all started here:
Don't be deceived by calm wind

I think under the circumstances I've done everything correctly. But it got me into thinking of finding the more (if not most) efficient motors speed in relation to ground speed.
 
In case it was missed, this entire discussion is academic and not really practical because the MP is a fly-by-wire system, where it is really the Flight Controller that is controlling the power to each of the 4 motors, continuously varying it, to meet certain control targets.

When you push the stick forward, all you are doing is sending a bounded value to the software on the aircraft representing a stick position between -100 to +100 %. The FC maps this to a speed range based on other settings, and then controls the motors to attempt to achieve this GPS GROUND SPEED based on stick position.

It does this in spite of wind, heading, etc. This is the desired behavior. However, it makes "speed", as we're talking about here (which is GPS ground speed), irrelevant as concerns flying at peak system efficiency, where "efficiency" is the greatest distance traveled for the charge left in the battery.

All the previous discussion was to try and explain the science behind the simple statement that wind has no impact on efficiency.

Wind doesn't factor into efficiency for the same reason we wouldn't anaylze a car running downhill turning the engine as it goes, with a completely empty gas tank, as having an engine design with "infinite" efficiency. The obvious problem with this is taking an external force acting on the car -- gravity -- and including it's effects in analyzing the motive force of the engine as it consumes fuel.

More similar to our case, we wouldn't want to measure the fuel efficiency of a car with a stiff headwind for the same reasons stated above -- wind represents an external force that should not be a part of our efficiency analysis and calculations.

Another way to look at it: If the MP is most efficient at 30mph airspeed (or, ground speed in still, no-wind conditions... same thing, again if you think about it), then the most efficient ground speed flying directly into a 10mph wind would bev 20mph.

Under those conditions, what is the speed the aircraft is moving through the air? 30mph, of course... the peak efficiency speed. The aircraft body, props, etc. only know the air flowing past it, it knows nothing of the ground aerodynamically.

In truth what we just did without the formal math and physics formulas is perform a Galilean Relativity reference frame translation.
So I think it would be correct to assume that for practical reasons, P mode (OA off is a given) would give us the peak efficiency speed?

I did a test (with the P4P though, not Mavic) that under the condition it was flown, it took 35% motor power for it just to hover. Giving a light throttle to 40% motors power, it already could achieve a faster speed than P mode. Going the other way, it took slightly more motors power but still in the blue area (it needed a bit less than 50%). So in theory, DJI can give us a let's just call it Efficient RTH by making the FC controlling the motors to stay at efficient level (I believe it is in the 40% - 60% range) AND varying the tilt angle to get the fastest speed and hence cover the most distance? They can check/adjust it every 10 seconds or so to take into account the changing wind condition. Not ideal indeed, but better than the current RTH setting.

What DJI give us right now for RTH speed is very crude, setting the RTH speed by simple parameter setting. In search for the more efficient RTH speed, I've increased it to 42kph (26mph) and now to 48kph (30mph). But if indeed for practical reasons the peak efficiency speed is 52kph (32mph, max P mode speed), I might set it at that.

I believe with the current hardware/software on board the Mavic/P4P right now, DJI can give us this "Efficient RTH". Or am I wrong? If they indeed can, but won't, I can't think why. Just like I can't think why they give us an option for "Landing" when signal is lost. RTH, certainly. Hover? Yes under certain situation. But landing? Can't think of any reason. Maybe someone can tell me? (edit: Ok, it's off topic. Sorry)
 
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Don't you want your drone to come back home? :) If your outbound flight was with tailwind, once you turned around you would be facing headwind. Then your ground speed will be far from efficient to go back home.

It all started here:
Don't be deceived by calm wind

I think under the circumstances I've done everything correctly. But it got me into thinking of finding the more (if not most) efficient motors speed in relation to ground speed.

That does absolutely nothing to explain the statement that wind has nothing to do with performance efficiency. I'm just going to assume it was a silly mistake, and all the gobbley goop was a lame attempt to save face.
 
That does absolutely nothing to explain the statement that wind has nothing to do with performance efficiency. I'm just going to assume it was a silly mistake, and all the gobbley goop was a lame attempt to save face.
To save face from who? I wrote my experience so that others can learn from my mistake.

At the same time, I am trying to learn if there is anything that I can do better in that situation, hence my participation in this thread.
 
To save face from who? I wrote my experience so that others can learn from my mistake.

At the same time, I am trying to learn if there is anything that I can do better in that situation, hence my participation in this thread.

I was talking about the guy who made the claim, not you.
 
That does absolutely nothing to explain the statement that wind has nothing to do with performance efficiency. I'm just going to assume it was a silly mistake, and all the gobbley goop was a lame attempt to save face.
Nope. All the "gobbley goop" was simply apparently over your head and ability to grasp. I even hinted at the relevant physics to look into further -- Galilean Relativity -- which a simple Wikipedia lookup can explain the whole thing with much more detail, and clarity, than is reasonable here.

However, like so many who prefer to remain ignorant, you decided to name-call instead. The ignorance is your loss, not mine. I understand why wind has no bearing on efficiency -- you still don't, and assume your simpleton perspective is still right. It's like someone who insists the earth is flat "because it looks that way". All that stuff about different stick shadows at different latitudes proving the earth is round is just a bunch of gobbley goop (can't even get gobbledy gook right) lame attempt to save face.

Some people insist on ignorance.
 
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Okay, really long post, explaining in excruciating detail for everyone OTHER than FlyGuy8675309, who apparently is missing many things in addition to Jenny's number, how this efficiency stuff works.

First, "efficiency" is an abstract term. We must define what we mean by efficiency. Generally, when discussing transportation, the most important efficiency measure is distance traveled per unit fuel consumed. This is because we care are successfully getting places far more than we care about when we get there. The latter doesn't matter if we don't get there at all.

For a quad RC aircraft, the "fuel" is stored electrical energy measure in mAh, and peak efficiency is maximizing how far we can travel for each mAh we consume.

Efficiency is a very, very, VERY complex property of any mechanical system on the order of the kinds of things we are talking about (cars, aircraft, etc.). It's impacted by dozens of factors. I'll discuss a few to give an idea.

Friction with air flowing over a moving object presents a drag force that power from the motors must be use to counter. Drag force increases as the square of speed -- double your speed, and the drag on your aircraft will increase by a factor of 4. Obviously, then, 4 times as much power is then going into heating the air as it passes over your aircraft as was being used uselessly for that purpose going half as fast.

Power from motors are used to create force to accelerate the aircraft, as well as fight drag. Because of the nonlinear relationship between speed and drag, at some point the drag will be so great that all the power of the motor is simply opposing drag, balancing it out, so the aircraft can move at a constant (peak) speed. You can't make it go any faster, because there's no more power available -- it's all working against the drag. Without getting into all the graphs and equations, flying at this speed -- fast speed possible -- turns out to be extremely inefficient, dumping way too much battery energy into fighting drag. So, even though you are going really fast, your battery will run out even faster, and you won't make it as far as at a slower speed. Put simply, you're wasting a lot of battery energy heating up the air with friction, energy that then isn't available to move the aircraft.

By contrast, at the other end of flight "efficiency" is hovering, where your making no progress at all, but still burning fuel. Eventually, the battery will run out and the aircraft will drop to the ground, having consumed the entire "tank of gas" without having made progress anywhere. Obviously incredibly inefficient.

So the speed/efficiency graph looks like a curve, a hump, with speed on the X axis, and efficiency in ft/mAh on the Y axis, similar to this (this is not an actual performance graph for the MP, just a visualization of it's general shape and parameters:

efficiency graph.png

To fully explain why the graph looks this way is far too deep for this discussion. There are so many variables that affect it, like the nonlinear behavior or drag, for instance. But you get the idea.

Back to the gobbley goop, to save my face. So, why does wind have no bearing on efficiency? I must be crazy. If you're flying back in a headwind, OF COURSE it won't travel as far, for the same amount of juice consumed, so therefore less efficient -- right?

Wrong. Here's why: The aircraft is not pushing against the ground. It's pushing against the air mass it's flying in. In terms of physics -- which is what we're talking about with efficiency -- it doesn't even know the ground is there. It's irrelevant.

Let's get back to that headwind. Say it's 10mph. And say the most efficient airspeed for the aircraft is 30mph. Let's further say that, with 1500mAh left, you can fly 8000ft in still, windless conditions, at 30mph.

Now, all conditions being the same, since this is the peak efficiency airspeed, if you were to go 20mph you'd fly longer (better duration efficiency), but find that you could only go a total distance of 7000ft before the battery ran out. At 39mph, you would cover the distance in less time, but find again that the battery ran out 1500ft short, and you only got 6500ft out of that 1500mAh.

I don't think there's any controvery over this -- that's the entire subject of this thread. So let's get back to how the whole situation changes with wind.

10mph headwind, straight on. What is the most efficient speed to fly? I.e., cover the most distance with available fuel? Still 30mph AIR speed. With a 10mph headwind, 20mph GROUND speed. This will result in the greatest distance traveled through the airmass, and over the ground. This speed is the point in the peak of the graph above.

Easiest way to see this is to understand that a constant wind speed is simply displacing your aircraft without affecting its flight behavior in any way. It is exactly the same as you flying for 20 minutes at 30 mph in still wind, land 10 miles away, and I pick it up and move it back 3.3 miles so it's only 6.7 miles away from you. Did it just fly less efficiently because some external actor, having nothing to do with the aircraft at all, its operation, motors, battery charge speed, etc. -- moved it?

Would you say it flew less efficiently, or that someone picked it up and moved it?

Well, that is LITERALLY what the wind is doing. Instead of me, a human being, moving it, a large mass of air it's flying IN moved it.

So, while wind frustrates your human goals, that has nothing to do with aerodynamic and power plant efficiency. As I said many posts ago, when picking apart the physics of this it is a simple reference frame translation, which preserves things like efficiency -- it just changes your spatial relationship to the aircraft.

One more way to try and help people understand this, because the physics of translating between references frames is not intuitive. This thought experiment kind of drives the point home.

Empty space. Utterly and completely empty. You, and a friend, are floating around in space suits near each other, holding hands, contemplating existence.

Suddenly, another friend seems to come rocketing out of nowhere to speed past you two at some incredible speed. She flies past in milliseconds and in a few seconds is gone -- so tiny you can't see her any more.

Question: Who's speeding through space at incredible speeds? Who has the kinetic (motion) energy?

You and your buddy holding hands would say the other guy. Yet, what was her experience? What did she see? Who does she think is loaded with kinetic energy?

If thinking about this face-saving gobbley goop isn't messing with your head, you aren't even beginning to understand it.

Now, just because there's a planet below, air all around, sunlight beating down, it doesn't change any of the fundamental physics of the Gedanken we just pondered, nor the physics of the Mavic Pro when it's flying either.

If there is still any confusion, ask questions. I will answer any that are sincere and civil. I have a face to save, and probably haven't blathered out enough gobbley goop yet to have full salvation.
 
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Friction with air flowing over a moving object presents a drag force that power from the motors must be use to counter. Drag force increases as the square of speed -- double your speed, and the drag on your aircraft will increase by a factor of 4. Obviously, then, 4 times as much power is then going into heating the air as it passes over your aircraft as was being used uselessly for that purpose going half as fast.

It's probably even worse than that due to form drag. Unlike an aircraft, a quadcopter has to tilt to create a higher angle of attack to increase speed, resulting in a higher cross-section of the drone being faced into the direction of travel, thereby elevating the form drag. This doesn't invalidate any of what you're saying. It just exacerbates it a bit due to the manner in which quads have to travel.
 
It's probably even worse than that due to form drag. Unlike an aircraft, a quadcopter has to tilt to create a higher angle of attack to increase speed, resulting in a higher cross-section of the drone being faced into the direction of travel, thereby elevating the form drag. This doesn't invalidate any of what you're saying. It just exacerbates it a bit due to the manner in which quads have to travel.
I'm delighted to be talking to someone clearly with some understanding of all this.

Form Drag (and other parasitic drag components) are part of all that complication I'm hand-waving away atm, as it would confuse the basic points.

Anyway, spot-on!
 
Friction with air flowing over a moving object presents a drag force that power from the motors must be use to counter. Drag force increases as the square of speed -- double your speed, and the drag on your aircraft will increase by a factor of 4. Obviously, then, 4 times as much power is then going into heating the air as it passes over your aircraft as was being used uselessly for that purpose going half as fast.

Power from motors are used to create force to accelerate the aircraft, as well as fight drag. Because of the nonlinear relationship between speed and drag, at some point the drag will be so great that all the power of the motor is simply opposing drag, balancing it out, so the aircraft can move at a constant (peak) speed. You can't make it go any faster, because there's no more power available -- it's all working against the drag. Without getting into all the graphs and equations, flying at this speed -- fast speed possible -- turns out to be extremely inefficient, dumping way too much battery energy into fighting drag. So, even though you are going really fast, your battery will run out even faster, and you won't make it as far as at a slower speed. Put simply, you're wasting a lot of battery energy heating up the air with friction, energy that then isn't available to move the aircraft.
Yes I found out about this through actual flying yesterday. Going against headwind, doing about 40kph the motors needed about 50%-60% output. Pushed the right stick all the way up, it churned out 80%+ output yet only doing less than 45kph. Definitely distance-wise, I would cover more distance if I keep the stick where the motors are doing 50%-60% rather than 80%+.

At that time, 40kph at 50%-60% was already faster than P mode full stick forward. This is where tilt angle come into play, I think. The Sport mode has more tilt angle than P mode. But if the tilt angle is too aggressive, going against headwind it will actually fly slower than a less aggressive tilt angle (as lisadoc wrote above, more drag).

If DJI can give us control of tilt angle on the fly, we can find the more efficient angle at the condition we are flying, correct?
 
....
If there is still any confusion, ask questions. I will answer any that are sincere and civil. I have a face to save, and probably haven't blathered out enough gobbley goop yet to have full salvation.

You are describing aerodynamic and mechanical efficiency which is well an very good (and theoretical). I cant argue with what you have said there.

However we operate in the real world with wind, terrain weather. I suspect most around here are far more interested in operational efficiency. How to operate the the mavic in the most efficient manner in the environmental conditions in which we are flying. This is what @FlyGuy8675309 is alluding to. I am sure you are well aware that aviators commonly endeavour to reduce exposure to headwinds and increase time in tailwinds to increase the efficiency of their operation. Doing so reduces air miles flown and increasing the efficiency of the operation. Mavic is really no different. You can even chose to fly it at a power setting if you wish, to fly at a given airspeed, rather then a GPS ground speed.

I see it as really an issue of semantics. So a Question:

Could you be persuaded that the operational efficiency might be a more useful real world measure?

So on an out and back course you fly upwind faster and down wind at a slower airspeed. Arriving back home with demonstrably more battery remaining than otherwise would have been the case if wind had not been taken into account. Simple math will show you less air miles will have been flown. In the real world that is how an efficient operation would be carried out.
 
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