Best drone for predator control

[Quebecnewf]

I was thinking thermal as well for very early morning and late evening . Very early in the spring the only warm thing on the island will be the fox before the birds come ashore .

going to have to do a lot more research and a lot more flying I’m thinking .
With a good thermal camera maybe take of early morning go up a bit high and if I see a hot spot it’s going to be nine chances out of ten mr fox .

Anyone done this type of job ?
Quebecnewf

 

[dronepilotbob]

I’ve been using my Mavic Pro to track coyotes. Dusk and dawn are the best time for these. I don’t have experience with foxes though or what their nature is like. The coyotes I’ve dealt with don’t care about the quad/propeller noise, etc. And the dens were not that difficult to spot after few morning/evenings of flying/observing. Coyotes seem to be very routine, so once you find the location, where they gather/hunt, it’s not that difficult to take it to the second level

Good luck with the foxes, keep us posted.

 

[russellg]

you do have a problem, you can't live trap a fox unless they have no food and are about starved. I have foxes and the same problem plus they have more than one den. In 2 years I have only gotten one fox and there are plenty more.

 

[Fearless Flight]

How big is the island? It seems like a controlled drive with a bunch of Beagles would be way more successful.

 

[JAW]

I have to ask (without rancor), who are you to decide foxes must die so nesting birds might live? Aren't you messing with mother nature? Have intrusions by mankind altered the way these foxes and birds interact or has it been the historical natural order of things? Are the nesting birds an endangered species?

 

[Quebecnewf]

Those are very good questions and I have asked the same thing . There are some species of bird on the island that are in trouble ( Atlantic puffin) for one .

the thought is these are protected areas for the birds . No humans or foxes allowed. We try to hunt early as I said before the main nesting begins . If we have no luck after a certain time we leave things alone .
The problem with the puffin is they arrive later , lay only one egg, and it hatches later. Long after the ducks and murres have left the puffins remain and that’s when the fox plays havoc with them . They lay in shallow burrows so it’s easy pickings .

birds welfare trumps the foxes on these protected islands . Other islands they are not allowed to be hunted or trapped.

quebecnewf

I have to ask (without rancor), who are you to decide foxes must die so nesting birds might live? Aren't you messing with mother nature? Have intrusions by mankind altered the way these foxes and birds interact or has it been the historical natural order of things? Are the nesting birds an endangered species?

those

 

[Quebecnewf]

How big is the island? It seems like a controlled drive with a bunch of Beagles would be way more successful.

No packs of beagles in this area. I have thought a good dog would be the Answer but I’m not getting a dog now.

 

[CallSignShadow]

I can think of no drone that will enable you to carry this out...

I can. The military's Shadow

 

[Wailuku]

I'm an ecologist who has spent A LOT of time in the field studying animals (population dynamics, behavior, migrations etc) as well as worked many gov contracts on invasive species control. So that is where my response is coming from and it is 100% meant to be constructive. Also I don't know your science/wildlife education background, so when/if I make an assumption about that I'll err toward over-explaining. Basically, I coming at this as if you were a young grad student asking me about your research plans/goals... I mean no disrespect or in any way am I trying to be condescending (academics get accused of that often, so I'm being proactively defensive

I think a drone might help, but it probably isn't going to be the primary tool you'll need. At least not at first.

That's all I will say about drones right now. Everything that follows is about field work and looking at your problem from an experienced field ecologist's perspective. Hopefully you find it useful.





I'd be really curious to follow your progress because these are the sort of problems I like to think about, but I think a lot of whatever you do is going to be somewhat experimental, trial and error sort of endeavors at first. Hopefully the contract you get will allow for that and not hold you to some arbitrary body count.

I fully understand the difference between full-scale research programs and these sorts of management contracts. Ideally though you would either already know or hit the primary literature on fox behavior in general and then spend A LOT of time in the field observing them before trying to develop a plan to remove them. Do what are (or used to be) called ethograms. In other words, conduct a pilot study, no pun intended. This can be done with strategically placed trail cameras, direct observations, and maybe even finding and following from a distance via drone until you figure out which approach yields the best/most info per effort. AND, you'll need to pour over that info and try to construct general behavioral patterns. This takes time, a lot of time. Being very familiar with relevant literature can save you a lot of time in the field though as you are not going to the be the first person who has tried something similar of course.

If you have the resources, a tagging study would probably be most useful (radio or gps). You also need to know, within reason, how many foxes are out there. Hard to solve a problem if you can not define the scope of it from the start. All the other things that were tried, and failed, did so because resource/wildlife managers were working with too little information on these foxes in that context IMO.

Perhaps they've got some of the 'pilot' data you'd need to have to develop an efficient eradication program from previous efforts. And, since you probably don't have the funds in the contract to conduct well-designed field research prior to actually removing foxes, you can go about the contract in a way that allows you to collect that data as you go. I've had to do this on past contracts and it does take a few years of data before you really start seeing the big picture in most cases. A lot the details will depend upon the scale of the problem though (size of islands, size of populations, effort you can put into 'research' and/or removal, etc).

Consider using volunteers/students for behavioral observations. If this is going to be an ongoing program (year to year) I'd develop a relationship with the local university, mammalogist, wildlife biologist etc. You can get 'free' help from grad students who do their thesis on this program. I'd say get creative with solutions!

Also, unless it is a really small island, eradication isn't likely possible and should not be a phrase used in your contract IMO. Most invasive or nuisance species programs are more appropriately meant to control the problem, not promise eradication. Besides, those island will get new foxes each year anyway.

That all was a bit rambling.. but I'd be happy to offer my opinions/suggestions on any of the aspects I've touched on. I'm fully onboard with your efforts an happy to help where I can in the planning stages or even helping you coordinate with a local Uni if needed. And if you can incorporate drones, even better!

 

[Quebecnewf]

I'm an ecologist who has spent A LOT of time in the field studying animals (population dynamics, behavior, migrations etc) as well as worked many gov contracts on invasive species control. So that is where my response is coming from and it is 100% meant to be constructive. Also I don't know your science/wildlife education background, so when/if I make an assumption about that I'll err toward over-explaining. Basically, I coming at this as if you were a young grad student asking me about your research plans/goals... I mean no disrespect or in any way am I trying to be condescending (academics get accused of that often, so I'm being proactively defensive

I think a drone might help, but it probably isn't going to be the primary tool you'll need. At least not at first.

That's all I will say about drones right now. Everything that follows is about field work and looking at your problem from an experienced field ecologist's perspective. Hopefully you find it useful.



Very informative response. I will add a few more details. These islands vary in size from 2 mile long to less than half a mile long. . The foxes come onto the islands in the winter but not every winter . It varies with the winters . Some winters the ice may not freeze to the islands and some winters it may be frozen for a month or more.

Access to the islands is not easy . Sea conditions have to be good and there are limited places to land ashore with small zodiac.

Extended stays are even harder. Most of the time you are limited to day trips. Try to arrive at daybreak and then you usually leave before dark .

Hiking is not easy. Very rocky and lots of cliffs . Great for the fox not so good for the hunter.

still looking for more info on camera setup ?

I think any high end drone from DJI will help my success rate.

And the birds will thank me

Quebecnewf

I'd be really curious to follow your progress because these are the sort of problems I like to think about, but I think a lot of whatever you do is going to be somewhat experimental, trial and error sort of endeavors at first. Hopefully the contract you get will allow for that and not hold you to some arbitrary body count.

I fully understand the difference between full-scale research programs and these sorts of management contracts. Ideally though you would either already know or hit the primary literature on fox behavior in general and then spend A LOT of time in the field observing them before trying to develop a plan to remove them. Do what are (or used to be) called ethograms. In other words, conduct a pilot study, no pun intended. This can be done with strategically placed trail cameras, direct observations, and maybe even finding and following from a distance via drone until you figure out which approach yields the best/most info per effort. AND, you'll need to pour over that info and try to construct general behavioral patterns. This takes time, a lot of time. Being very familiar with relevant literature can save you a lot of time in the field though as you are not going to the be the first person who has tried something similar of course.

If you have the resources, a tagging study would probably be most useful (radio or gps). You also need to know, within reason, how many foxes are out there. Hard to solve a problem if you can not define the scope of it from the start. All the other things that were tried, and failed, did so because resource/wildlife managers were working with too little information on these foxes in that context IMO.

Perhaps they've got some of the 'pilot' data you'd need to have to develop an efficient eradication program from previous efforts. And, since you probably don't have the funds in the contract to conduct well-designed field research prior to actually removing foxes, you can go about the contract in a way that allows you to collect that data as you go. I've had to do this on past contracts and it does take a few years of data before you really start seeing the big picture in most cases. A lot the details will depend upon the scale of the problem though (size of islands, size of populations, effort you can put into 'research' and/or removal, etc).

Consider using volunteers/students for behavioral observations. If this is going to be an ongoing program (year to year) I'd develop a relationship with the local university, mammalogist, wildlife biologist etc. You can get 'free' help from grad students who do their thesis on this program. I'd say get creative with solutions!

Also, unless it is a really small island, eradication isn't likely possible and should not be a phrase used in your contract IMO. Most invasive or nuisance species programs are more appropriately meant to control the problem, not promise eradication. Besides, those island will get new foxes each year anyway.

That all was a bit rambling.. but I'd be happy to offer my opinions/suggestions on any of the aspects I've touched on. I'm fully onboard with your efforts an happy to help where I can in the planning stages or even helping you coordinate with a local Uni if needed. And if you can incorporate drones, even better!

 

[The Trap Maker]

Save your money.... Fox hunt most of the time at night..... they curl up and sleep most of the day...........I do chase hog at night with a M2E out of oat fields

 

[Quebecnewf]

Save your money.... Fox hunt most of the time at night..... they curl up and sleep most of the day...........I do chase hog at night with a M2E out of oat fields

Night hunting not allowed . I don't think it would work even if it was allowed. Moving around on these islands in the dark would be very dangerous .

Quebecnewf

 

[Fearless Flight]

Save your money.... Fox hunt most of the time at night..... they curl up and sleep most of the day...........I do chase hog at night with a M2E out of oat fields

That’s why I mentioned Beagles and a controlled drive. I think anything else will be a failure.

 

[hiflyer201]

As a fellow wildlife biologist, I think the concern about birds is definitely a legitimate one with a drone. If there’s any kind of nesting activity you’re going to be disturbing the very same birds as the foxes do, and if there are any predatory birds present, they may get to eggs and nestlings if their parents are flushed from the nest by the drone.

I would think the best solution would be to use canine control bait stations (meat scented cyanide laced lollipop stations), they work on coyotes and unfortunately, on the bobcats and foxes in our area, and are not dangerous to birds.


Gosh..in England they have all but stopped a sporting activity that used horses and hounds that had been bred and refined for hundreds of years just because they chased a single fox. What do the say.."in a perfect world"..alas

 

[Wailuku]

Sounds a lot like my summers in AK with my 12' zodiac! Lot's of logistical hurdles to be sure. But given that these are primarily nocturnal animals and you can not fly at night aerial surveys for foxes during the day probably won't give you much information (to state the obvious, as mentioned by others as well) no matter what sensor you use. Having said that, I'm all for exploratory research with drones. If you have the funds, why not try?

Somewhere ~ a year ago(?) in this forum is a thread from a student who wanted to survey for something, maybe ungulates, and he was trying to develop dual sensors that could image the aerial surveys simultaneously (I think maybe infrared plus RGB but I don't remember the details offhand). Maybe worth digging to see where his project landed.

If your goal is to locate a small animal by drone, then go hunt it by foot... this seems an incredibly inefficient way to go about it. Maybe.. if there are only 1-2 foxes per island then maybe that's the way to go?? Just low odds of seeing them in the first place. But this is a difficult task and 'efficiency' (i.e., foxes per unit effort) probably isn't your primary concern.

I'd still consider traps.. not all traps are baited with food. Pheromones have been used and there's some research for sound as bait (i.e., baby rat sounds are highly effective (10x better than food traps) at luring adult rats to trap). Maybe traps that you could see from aerial sorties so you could determine if you needed to actually hike to a trap any given trip out. I'd probably place traps very near the bird colonies where predation was happening no matter what sort of 'bait' you used.

Also though if there is some time early Spring before the birds arrive maybe simple food traps or bait stations would work. Thinking a bit outside the norm, audio playback from a bird colony might help lure foxes into and area for traps/bait stations prior to the colony actually being on the island. Add some bird decoys for a visual assist? Might test that idea on a more accessible island.

And, if this work is happening in Newfoundland, I could connect you to a local biologist up there who might be a good resource for logistics/connections etc. He's a fish guy, but well informed on local conservation issues.

 

[Wailuku]

That’s why I mentioned Beagles and a controlled drive. I think anything else will be a failure.

Doesn't seem like that feasible, or even possible in his particular setting.

 

[CactusJackSlade]

Your best bet is going to be expensive... I'm thinking a FLIR equipped DJI Matrice. The FLIR Mavic will be a waste of money, the sensor is not good enough to see anything more than 100 feet away (I did a review on the camera they use and was very disappointed).

Your second best is going to be a Mavic Pro 2 or zoom... and experianced pilot wold add to the success rate along with a LARGE monitor to have an assistant watch. We have used large monitors in building inspections, you can spot a lot more detail that way.

My brother has done extensive work on conservation programs as a drone pilot, PM me if you would like me to connect the both of you.

 

[Fearless Flight]

Doesn't seem like that feasible, or even possible in his particular setting.

I don’t think so either. I don’t think there is any other effective way to hunt them though.

 

[Quebecnewf]

We have tried many different types of trap sets. Baited and scented with all different types of baits. All with no success . I talked to an older fur hunter and he told me they are next to impossible to catch on islands during spring summer and fall. Winter trips to these islands are very hard to work . My main thrust with the drone would be get ashore walk up onto the nearest hill and then the drone lets me “ walk “ the entire island in 15 minutes instead of a couple hours.

while I know they hunt at night it seems we see them quite often in the dat as well.
The problem is you see one , it disappears over the hill . You get to the top of the hill and it’s nowhere to be seen and you know the gull wheeling above you in the air knows exactly where he went and would gladly tell you if he could . I want to replace the gull with the drone .

the idea of a bigger monitor is good . I’m thinking an iPad mini 5 or iPad Pro as an option .
The flying is not difficult in this area no trees . No power lines just rocks , moss and cliffs .
I have been looking at the high end drones and a lot will depend on how much money the employer wants to commit.

foxes on a bird sanctuary are a really bad thing . Think of a fox in a hen house with thousands of hens . How many he kills in a 12 month period is unbelievable. If it’s a female with pups it’s even worse.

a few years back we were on an island in another sanctuary and when we went ashore you had to be careful not to step in ducks nests. The next year there was a fox on that same island and it was barren . Dead ducks everywhere . Small narrow island and even though there were 3 of us and we saw him twice we still never got him . They are a tough prey

quebecnewf

 

[Wailuku]

I don’t think so either. I don’t think there is any other effective way to hunt them though.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Not a hunter, but I'm inclined to agree.

We have tried many different types of trap sets. Baited and scented with all different types of baits. All with no success . I talked to an older fur hunter and he told me they are next to impossible to catch on islands during spring summer and fall. Winter trips to these islands are very hard to work . My main thrust with the drone would be get ashore walk up onto the nearest hill and then the drone lets me “ walk “ the entire island in 15 minutes instead of a couple hours.

while I know they hunt at night it seems we see them quite often in the dat as well.
The problem is you see one , it disappears over the hill . You get to the top of the hill and it’s nowhere to be seen and you know the gull wheeling above you in the air knows exactly where he went and would gladly tell you if he could . I want to replace the gull with the drone .

the idea of a bigger monitor is good . I’m thinking an iPad mini 5 or iPad Pro as an option .
The flying is not difficult in this area no trees . No power lines just rocks , moss and cliffs .
I have been looking at the high end drones and a lot will depend on how much money the employer wants to commit.

foxes on a bird sanctuary are a really bad thing . Think of a fox in a hen house with thousands of hens . How many he kills in a 12 month period is unbelievable. If it’s a female with pups it’s even worse.

a few years back we were on an island in another sanctuary and when we went ashore you had to be careful not to step in ducks nests. The next year there was a fox on that same island and it was barren . Dead ducks everywhere . Small narrow island and even though there were 3 of us and we saw him twice we still never got him . They are a tough prey

quebecnewf

I'm not doubting the impact of foxes on ground nesting birds. I am doubting the usefulness of a drone in spotting a fox. As a biologist, I wouldn't give up on the trapping. Hunters/trappers etc are a great resource, but they have a different motivation than you do. Different cost/benefit calculation. A single fox pelt isn't worth that much effort to a trapper, but catching/killing a single fox on an island is a big deal to you (and the birds) as you correctly point out. So maybe more effort in trap techniques is warranted in your case. Just my opinion.

But it sounds like you are set on getting a drone and trying. In which case my advice would be to get something like a Mavic 2 Zoom to start. That will be $2K (US) for the drone and all the accessories and extra batteries you'll want to get and can at least allow you a proof of concept test for relatively short money. You'll want an extra set of eyes to watch the larger monitor as the pilot will generally have their hands full just flying the drone and making sure they are getting good coverage of the survey area. I think to spend $6-$25k+ on a Matrice series plus more for sensors/camera would be a bit crazy without really knowing if the drone platform is even going to help your program, just my $.02.

Or, maybe instead of 'hunting' them you just need a good sniper and a few spotters
Good luck!